Goff a long way from playing

[Mackeyser]

You think Mannion has ANY trade value?

Yes, I do.

I think Mannion looked pretty decent during the Preseason. Actually, I thought the offense actually had a spark to it that neither other QB brought.

Since 2014... Bradford has gone on to have a solid season in Philly and now is 5-1 and looking solid in Minny.

Rams FO passed on multiple QBs in 2015 and 2016 that are now producing. The QB they took, they deprived of virtually any development time due to futzing around with the backups...until the final freaking preseason game. As if the idea wasn't to develop the 3rd round draft pick to BE even the backup...

So, yeah, I think that once other Directors of Pro Personnel will see that the Rams aren't exactly killing it at the QB position...AND may be letting another productive QB go...yeah. I bet a team that CAN develop QBs will be more than happy to take Mannion off of our hands.

What we get won't be an indication of value because we've seen guys traded for 1st round picks that did nothing and guys who were traded for ham sandwiches who blew up.

Point is that THIS Rams coaching staff if it hasn't already, is quickly going to get the reputation that it doesn't understand the QB position.

So WHEN they extend Keenum at Fisher's behest, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they try to deal Mannion for picks since they'll lose him after 2018 without compensation, anyway. And between Goff and Keenum, there's not going to be enough reps for the ball boy, let alone to develop a 3rd QB, so the idea that Mannion's essential to anything. They need the picks now and there will be some super QB hungry teams going into the 2017 draft that won't want to solely rely on bad retreads and super raw rookies.

None of that is to say that Mannion's all that or that I'm trying to create, recreate or supercharge some kind of Mannion bandwagon. Not so.

Just saying what's pretty evident to me. Politically, Mannion can't have any success here. Goff has to succeed or fail, but if Mannion succeeds, Fisher and Snead are fired. It will have meant that they sent all those picks away and they couldn't even evaluate their own roster. That's a mortal sin for football people. Keenum's a capable backup and Goff will be the sink or swim Franchise.

Which means Mannion has to go. And because Keenum's contract is up and we need the picks this year, it's almost certain to happen this off-season.

Does Mannion have value? How many QBs is Cleveland working on so far? You think the league (other than the Rams FO, apparently) has noticed? Pretty sure they have... So, yeah, pretty sure Mannion has trade value.

And I'll wish him well in his next stop. He never really had a shot here and if nothing else, once a guy gets to the NFL, that's all I wish for them...to get that shot. If they squander it or fail, then that's on them.

 

[bluecoconuts]

I don't know. No one knows. We haven't seen him. And we can't use the "he has to play" or "he has to get reps" for Goff and then turn around and expect Mannion to surpass him while he's been all but ignored for the better part of two seasons. Remember, Mannion on his own dime went and spent all off-season working his ass off on QB fundamentals and improving.

Do I think Mannion has a higher ceiling than Goff? No.

Do I think Mannion could be an effective QB in the NFL? Maybe. Likely, even. However, that conversation is nigh on impossible to have and the reality of it is even more so because there's no way Fisher is going to let anyone other than Keenum act as the placeholder or Goff come in once he's ready to be the Franchise (and we all, presume, hope and pray that happens).

But most of us function from a meritocratic mindset (insofar as even if you grant the extra reps and attention as befits a #1 overall, he should earn the spot). From that mindset, Mannion is??? It's empirically impossible to say that the Rams allocated enough resources to develop him (the requisite reps his rookie year were squandered in the backup battle between Keenum and Davis when everyone and their brother knew Keenum was the guy).

Bottom line now is that even if Goff is a full season away from being ready and Keenum gets injured, they'll put Goff out there...because there's NO CHANCE that they will EVER allow anyone to second guess this choice. It's okay if Goff busts, but NOT okay if they already had a QB in the roster before paying what they did for Goff.

Consistency and patterns. Mannion will NEVER see the field. I fully expect they try to keep Keenum and deal Mannion this off-season.

Watch...

I'm not convinced.. While Mannion definitely had a better grip on the offense than Goff did (obviously) and showed improvement on that from his rookie year to this year in terms of his preseason outing, he still maintained the same fundamental flaws in his physical game.. Foot movement, accuracy, etc. His stat-line was better (as his competition was worse), but the fundamental flaws were glaring in my opinion. Goff may not have as deep of an understanding on the offense, but he doesn't have the same flaws that Mannion has that will make it much easier for opposing defenses.. You can change an offense week to week or simplify the playcalling for a rookie, you can't suddenly make someone have good footwork.

 

[Mackeyser]

Not every QB had awesome feet. If footwork was the ultimate determinant, Paxton Lynch would never have been drafted.

 

[JackStraw]

I have a bad feeling we drafted a glorified Mike Glennon.

 

[dieterbrock]

Yes, I do.

I think Mannion looked pretty decent during the Preseason. Actually, I thought the offense actually had a spark to it that neither other QB brought.

Since 2014... Bradford has gone on to have a solid season in Philly and now is 5-1 and looking solid in Minny.

Rams FO passed on multiple QBs in 2015 and 2016 that are now producing. The QB they took, they deprived of virtually any development time due to futzing around with the backups...until the final freaking preseason game. As if the idea wasn't to develop the 3rd round draft pick to BE even the backup...

So, yeah, I think that once other Directors of Pro Personnel will see that the Rams aren't exactly killing it at the QB position...AND may be letting another productive QB go...yeah. I bet a team that CAN develop QBs will be more than happy to take Mannion off of our hands.

What we get won't be an indication of value because we've seen guys traded for 1st round picks that did nothing and guys who were traded for ham sandwiches who blew up.

Point is that THIS Rams coaching staff if it hasn't already, is quickly going to get the reputation that it doesn't understand the QB position.

So WHEN they extend Keenum at Fisher's behest, it wouldn't surprise me at all if they try to deal Mannion for picks since they'll lose him after 2018 without compensation, anyway. And between Goff and Keenum, there's not going to be enough reps for the ball boy, let alone to develop a 3rd QB, so the idea that Mannion's essential to anything. They need the picks now and there will be some super QB hungry teams going into the 2017 draft that won't want to solely rely on bad retreads and super raw rookies.

None of that is to say that Mannion's all that or that I'm trying to create, recreate or supercharge some kind of Mannion bandwagon. Not so.

Just saying what's pretty evident to me. Politically, Mannion can't have any success here. Goff has to succeed or fail, but if Mannion succeeds, Fisher and Snead are fired. It will have meant that they sent all those picks away and they couldn't even evaluate their own roster. That's a mortal sin for football people. Keenum's a capable backup and Goff will be the sink or swim Franchise.

Which means Mannion has to go. And because Keenum's contract is up and we need the picks this year, it's almost certain to happen this off-season.

Does Mannion have value? How many QBs is Cleveland working on so far? You think the league (other than the Rams FO, apparently) has noticed? Pretty sure they have... So, yeah, pretty sure Mannion has trade value.

And I'll wish him well in his next stop. He never really had a shot here and if nothing else, once a guy gets to the NFL, that's all I wish for them...to get that shot. If they squander it or fail, then that's on them.

Do you know how many qb with no actual NFL experience get traded? Answer is virtually none.
Sure there is a Ryan Mallett now and again but that is due to a relationship and I don't see anyone on the Rams staff elevating to HC that may want a guy who knows his system.
No, Mannion had some fun moments against 4th stringers but so have many other qb.
If he got cut would he find another team? Likely. But trade? Not a chance.

 

[dieterbrock]

I have a bad feeling we drafted a glorified Mike Glennon.

Heck he's better than any qb we've had in a while.

 

[Mackeyser]

Do you know how many qb with no actual NFL experience get traded? Answer is virtually none.
Sure there is a Ryan Mallett now and again but that is due to a relationship and I don't see anyone on the Rams staff elevating to HC that may want a guy who knows his system.
No, Mannion had some fun moments against 4th stringers but so have many other qb.
If he got cut would he find another team? Likely. But trade? Not a chance.

Well, that's why I specifically said that I wouldn't attach any value significance to the round Snead gets in return for him.

I could be wrong, but I highly, HIGHLY doubt that they wait on Mannion. They need picks now (meaning the 2017 draft).

So, unless Fisher gets fired or both Goff and Keenum are injured and Mannion is a train wreck (that would simply put him out of the league), I can't see Fisher and Snead sitting on Mannion and getting nothing for him.

Here's what it comes down to: Once Goff is elevated, will Fisher want to spend the capital on keeping Keenum as a backup? Or will he feel more comfortable having ANOTHER essentially rookie QB waiting in the wings...one he's done virtually nothing to develop? Considering the confidence Fisher's shown in Keenum, unless another club comes to take Keenum as a starter or close, I can see the Rams paying Keenum a shiny penny to stay as the backup/mentor. That leaves Mannion as the 3rd string in perpetuity.

Now... With that... that leaves 3 options...

1) trade him after the 2016 season which, after all the injuries to QBs in the league, having a rookie who's sat for 2 years may be seen as a blessing, especially if he works out well. And...the Rams pretty badly need the picks.

2) trade him after the 2017 season. This will be the final window and teams will know it. The Rams will be essentially be trading for very late round picks to try to just "get something" as opposed to letting Mannion walk after 2018.

3) let him walk after 2018. Because he was a 3rd rounder, there's no fifth year option (if the 4th year is an option, then we can just eliminate step 2...crap. Just thought of that. Now I gotta look it up...) Anyway, once his contract is up, they can always just let him walk and get nothing for him.

Teams are generally loathe to let a guy walk for nothing in return. Sometimes they let a guy play out their contract and FA comes into play, but even backup QBs have to be paid attention to.

If Fisher is going to continue being consistently Fisher...Keenum will stay and Mannion will go.

The only questions are when and in what manner.

 

[dieterbrock]

Well, that's why I specifically said that I wouldn't attach any value significance to the round Snead gets in return for him.

I could be wrong, but I highly, HIGHLY doubt that they wait on Mannion. They need picks now (meaning the 2017 draft).

So, unless Fisher gets fired or both Goff and Keenum are injured and Mannion is a train wreck (that would simply put him out of the league), I can't see Fisher and Snead sitting on Mannion and getting nothing for him.

Here's what it comes down to: Once Goff is elevated, will Fisher want to spend the capital on keeping Keenum as a backup? Or will he feel more comfortable having ANOTHER essentially rookie QB waiting in the wings...one he's done virtually nothing to develop? Considering the confidence Fisher's shown in Keenum, unless another club comes to take Keenum as a starter or close, I can see the Rams paying Keenum a shiny penny to stay as the backup/mentor. That leaves Mannion as the 3rd string in perpetuity.

Now... With that... that leaves 3 options...

1) trade him after the 2016 season which, after all the injuries to QBs in the league, having a rookie who's sat for 2 years may be seen as a blessing, especially if he works out well. And...the Rams pretty badly need the picks.

2) trade him after the 2017 season. This will be the final window and teams will know it. The Rams will be essentially be trading for very late round picks to try to just "get something" as opposed to letting Mannion walk after 2018.

3) let him walk after 2018. Because he was a 3rd rounder, there's no fifth year option (if the 4th year is an option, then we can just eliminate step 2...crap. Just thought of that. Now I gotta look it up...) Anyway, once his contract is up, they can always just let him walk and get nothing for him.

Teams are generally loathe to let a guy walk for nothing in return. Sometimes they let a guy play out their contract and FA comes into play, but even backup QBs have to be paid attention to.

If Fisher is going to continue being consistently Fisher...Keenum will stay and Mannion will go.

The only questions are when and in what manner.

I don't think they bring Keenum back and I don't think any team would trade for Mannion. There's 3rd, 4th and 5th round qb being released every year. I don't see where Mannion has done anything worth being traded for.
Particularly after a season that saw teams get quality play out of Prescott, Kessler and even Brissett. Why not just draft a kid

 

[Mackeyser]

Well, I wasn't super popular for noting Fisher's patterns in the off-season, but they bore out, didn't they?

If it's remotely affordable to keep Keenum as the backup, you can bet that Fisher will choose Keenum over Mannion.

And if (when, imho) that happens, the only question remaining will be how Mannion leaves.

So, we disagree on that.

I'd be willing to bet ALL of my ROD dollars that they try to extend Keenum (he's only 28 and the organization believes in him). I can't say that they will definitely retain him because I can't account for other teams, but they team's shown exactly ZERO confidence in Mannion and Fisher prefers Veterans with which he has a comfort level (Sensabaugh?). Conversely, can anyone honestly see the Rams not pursuing Keenum and being happy with a Rook who may not have played (hopefully, he'll have played and established at least his potential if not his starter credentials) and a 2nd year player who also hasn't played any meaningful snaps?

So what I'm saying is that I FIRMLY believe that come the end of the season, they attempt to resign Keenum. IF they do, especially if they do it early, then I fully expect them to try to deal Mannion before the draft in order to recoup draft picks lost in the Goff trade.

The point of trading FOR Mannion is that other Pro Personnel departments will have to ask if the Rams missed on Mannion. A case can be made that the Rams may not be great at evaluating or utilizing QBs. Since 2014, that case would be pretty compelling. So a Pro Personnel person would have to evaluate Mannion and include his 2 years in the league, even if his development were...stunted. He still understands the logistics and what it means to be a pro in the NFL. That's a hurdle that every rookie has to handle that Mannion...won't. His only focus would be learning a new offense and new teammates.

Now, is that a huge point for Mannion? I don't know. That will depend on which QBs declare, which teams need QBs and how much the Rams are asking.

But we'll see. It's Pachinko with a fair number of pins in the way, but there seems to be a 'most likely' path. Then again, with Chaos Theory... who knows?

 

[-X-]

I'd be willing to bet ALL of my ROD dollars that they try to extend Keenum (he's only 28 and the organization believes in him). I can't say that they will definitely retain him because I can't account for other teams, but they team's shown exactly ZERO confidence in Mannion and Fisher prefers Veterans with which he has a comfort level (Sensabaugh?). Conversely, can anyone honestly see the Rams not pursuing Keenum and being happy with a Rook who may not have played (hopefully, he'll have played and established at least his potential if not his starter credentials) and a 2nd year player who also hasn't played any meaningful snaps?

Of course they'd want to retain Keenum if they can. Every team in the league is looking for a QB who can provide a safety net if/when their starter goes down. We've seen over the years when Bradford went down that there was nothing to fall back on. Some sporadic good games, but nobody to actually lean on. If Mannion gets released instead, then he's just not that good. As @dieterbrock said, mid-round QBs (and even high draft picks) get recycled over and over again every year, just about. So if Keenum and Mannion are on the same level, talent-wise, then of course Fisher is gonna stay with Keenum. After talent has been weighed and measured, and there's no clear winner, all the other intangibles come into play.

Not sure how you can say that Fisher had a comfort level with Sensabaugh. That was likely Gregg Williams' suggestion, and that cat is gone now.
If you remember, Fisher wasn't in Tennessee when that guy was drafted.

 

[Mojo Ram]

Just saying what's pretty evident to me. Politically, Mannion can't have any success here. Goff has to succeed or fail, but if Mannion succeeds, Fisher and Snead are fired. It will have meant that they sent all those picks away and they couldn't even evaluate their own roster. That's a mortal sin for football people. Keenum's a capable backup and Goff will be the sink or swim Franchise.

Which means Mannion has to go. And because Keenum's contract is up and we need the picks this year, it's almost certain to happen this off-season.

You kinda lost me here. I can easily see a universe where Mannion backs up Goff beyond this season.

 

[MountainRam]

If GRab is not ready in 3rd season, how can Goff be ready in season 1 with this staff?

 

[dieterbrock]

@Mackeyser i could see interest in re-signing Keenum but I could see a qb challenged team to offer him more money than what a backup would deserve.
So we'll see on that. I can't see any situation where a team trades for Mannion. So agree to disagree on that one.
But most importantly, I LOVE the Pachinko reference. Man that brings back awesome childhood memories!!

 

[Mackeyser]

Of course they'd want to retain Keenum if they can. Every team in the league is looking for a QB who can provide a safety net if/when their starter goes down. We've seen over the years when Bradford went down that there was nothing to fall back on. Some sporadic good games, but nobody to actually lean on. If Mannion gets released instead, then he's just not that good. As @dieterbrock said, mid-round QBs (and even high draft picks) get recycled over and over again every year, just about. So if Keenum and Mannion are on the same level, talent-wise, then of course Fisher is gonna stay with Keenum. After talent has been weighed and measured, and there's no clear winner, all the other intangibles come into play.

Not sure how you can say that Fisher had a comfort level with Sensabaugh. That was likely Gregg Williams' suggestion, and that cat is gone now.
If you remember, Fisher wasn't in Tennessee when that guy was drafted.

My point is more that they'll likely overpay to keep Keenum rather than rely on the 3rd round pick that they should have developed if not to be the starter, then to be the inexpensive backup.

Keenum has been overemphasized to the detriment of both Goff and Mannion, imho. That's delayed both their development and will necessitate the need to retain Keenum because they haven't developed Mannion enough to take over the #2.

That decision will likely cost $5M per year or more which would go a long way at other positions if Mannion HAD been developed and was capable or allowed to step in for Keenum.

And we're going to need all the money we can get our hands on with ADs contract coming up as well as Tree's and a few others.

 

[jrry32]

My point is more that they'll likely overpay to keep Keenum rather than rely on the 3rd round pick that they should have developed if not to be the starter, then to be the inexpensive backup.

Keenum has been overemphasized to the detriment of both Goff and Mannion, imho. That's delayed both their development and will necessitate the need to retain Keenum because they haven't developed Mannion enough to take over the #2.

That decision will likely cost $5M per year or more which would go a long way at other positions if Mannion HAD been developed and was capable or allowed to step in for Keenum.

And we're going to need all the money we can get our hands on with ADs contract coming up as well as Tree's and a few others.

If he wants $5 million a year, he can go find another team.

 

[Mackeyser]

If he wants $5 million a year, he can go find another team.

Do we have to do this again?

What people want versus what Fisher's gonna do.

I agree with you on your sentiment as I've agreed with you on a LOT of your takes. AND...that doesn't change what FISHER'S gonna do.

My post is about what I think Fisher will do, not what I think he should do.

And unless another team offers starter money, I think the Rams at Fisher's insistence will offer significant backup money to retain Keenum.

I'm sure enough that I'd bet all my ROD bucks. Again, not that Keenum for sure returns to the Rams because who knows what FA holds, but that the Rams will be pretty aggressive in trying to retain Keenum. Further, based on the market, I can't imagine Keenum signing for less than $5M per.

Folks didn't want to hear what I discerned before due to pre-season enthusiasm among other factors. However, now that the bubble has burst, I'm hoping we can both embrace the possible AND talk about the probable, even if it's negative.

 

[kurtfaulk]

The commodore in England is called what, a Vauxhall something or another?

I think it's called the Pontiac G8 in America.

.

 

[-X-]

Folks didn't want to hear what I discerned before due to pre-season enthusiasm among other factors. However, now that the bubble has burst

I think I'll wait a few more games before I throw in the towel, Macky Mack.

 

[RamWoodie]

This guy says he has "sources" and I believe him because what he said is the very things I saw in preseason.

What I don't understand is why folks are up in arms with the kid not playing. It doesn't say he can't play. Fisher and the staff simply aren't willing to mess with his confidence. They want to put him out there WHEN THEY ARE COMFORTABLE WITH HIM.

What's wrong with that? To heck with all the talk! Fisher will play Goff when he has the confidence the kid can handle himself!

NUFF SAID!!!