Emmanuel Sanders hit

[Alan]

HometownBoy thinking there's only one way to skin a cat:
If he had slowed to wrap him up it would have given Sanders just enough time to catch the ball. He had to explode through him or Sanders makes a huge catch and maybe the whole outlook of the game is changed.

Besides, like you said, it shouldn't have been a penalty anyways. So it shouldn't matter if he wrapped him up or not. In this instance it's okay. Now if your point is to learn when to wrap up and when to throw a shoulder then I agree. He needs to better learn when he should be textbook and when he should be going for the highlight reel, with textbook being the case 98% of the time. However I can't agree if you're saying that he shouldn't have done it at all. If he doesn't he gives away a huge catch and tons of momentum.

I'm not buying that leaving his feet and diving with both arms outstretched (aiming for a spot slightly above or below the waste) to wrap up would not have accomplished the same thing.

I commented about his tackling for two reasons, the first of which I've already stated concerning the penalty. That comment about his tackling technique causing the penalty was also made by one of the commentators BTW.

The second and main reason I brought this up was to again point out his tackling skills leave something to be desired and I'm pretty sure he uses that technique because of his diminutive stature. It's fine when it works but it often doesn't work and that's why they teach you to wrap up and they don't teach you to tackle like Gaines does.

Of course he should have made that play but he should have done it correctly. IMO it accomplishes the same thing except there's no penalty so in my mind it's a far superior play. With the emphasis on safety and reducing helmet to helmet hits that play will always be flagged in the new NFL when done at that speed. And that's knowing that he didn't make a helmet to helmet hit. It just looked like it was at game speed. Fisher said the same thing so...

 

[Alan]

Mojo Ram with his no pain no gain attitude:
I've been at the other end of that clip many times as a Rams fan. It's football. It was not a dirty hit IMO, and Sanders walked off the field with a concussion.

Two things here. First of all I hardly call walking off the field with a concussion as "walks off the field in good shape."

Secondly, It's football and I like big hits too but that's a far cry from celebrating a hit that injures another player. I find myself thinking about this scenario sometime down the road:

What if I wake up and read that Sanders committed suicide due to CTE related problems. Would I remember how happy I was that we contributed to that?

I didn't start this out to moralize about this issue, I'm just pointing out that he needs to learn how to tackle correctly. Deja vu there for me.

 

[61Woody]

There were two flags on the play.: defensive holding and the unnecessary roughness. You are seeing the holding flag. The same ref also threw his hat to signify the second penalty.

Correct the one who was out of position to make the call, you'll notice the official standing right there did not throw his flag.

 

[-X-]

Would you still be liking that clip @Mojo Ram if the WR was Britt or Quick? I want to beat the other team when both of us are at our best. I like big hits but only when everyone gets up and walks off the field in good shape.

I'll never understand why people say this. Of course he/we wouldn't like it if it was one of ours on the receiving end of it.
I'll bet the Broncos fans would love it if it was one of their players dishing it out instead of taking it though.

That's how this stuff works. No false dichotomies needed.

 

[RhodyRams]

Correct the one who was out of position to make the call, you'll notice the official standing right there did not throw his flag.

actually, the official that was standing right there had thrown his flag previously for illegal contact, and then after the hit, ceremoniously threw his hat onto Sanders


There were 2 fouls called on the play, illegal contact on the defense, and helmet to helmet

 

[sdakotaram]

Great replay after replay

http://blogs.denverpost.com/broncos...ers-concussion-nasty-hit-rodney-mcleod/30903/

 

[RamFan503]

Now that everyone has had their say in this thread and it has fallen to page 2, I just want to add something. Remember how I talked about not liking his tackling because he never wraps up and only uses his shoulder? That would not have been a penalty had he used proper form. Yes I know it shouldn't have been called anyway but that's immaterial to my point.

Just saying.

Sorry Alan. Find a similar play anywhere where the DB uses the "proper form" you are eluding to in that kind of a situation. The DB's job is to make sure there is no catch there. Period. Wrapping up in that situation likely means the receiver can still hold on to the ball. A DB can't wait to see if the receiver is indeed going to get a good grasp of the ball and you can count on the fact that at the NFL level, the receiver is going to come down with that ball MOST of the time without a defender there to jar it loose. The last thing I would want to see there is a DB conceding the catch so that he can just tackle a receiver that is going to be down anyway. You don't take chances there. You make a hard, legal hit and not only do you make a statement but you give him virtually no chance to hold onto that ball.

This is still football - isn't it? Do we then tell defensive linemen to not drive through the ball carrier or land on the player when they tackle him? Instead should these players hold up so that they can be sure to wrap up the mid section of a player? Let's be real here. Everyone who has ever played the game relishes in inflicting pain - not injury - pain. Most that I know who have played also respect a good hit. In a way, you have to be a masochist to want to play this game. That is just the reality of it all.

I'm right there with you on wrapping up in open field and such. The shoulder "tackle" pisses me off to no end and many defenders do it and end up on the ground as the ball carrier scampers away.

You also went with the CTE angle. First of all, I've seen much worse force on a guy's helmet when his legs were taken out and upended. I've seen incidental helmet contact during a routine tackle that gave a guy a concussion. Hell, I've seen guys concussed by laying out for a catch and land wrong. McLeod hit shoulder to shoulder. If Sanders turns a little or does anything different, his helmet may not have hit the turf so hard. And you can't say that taking his legs out or hitting him in the mid section wouldn't have had the same result of his helmet hitting the turf. He was fully laid out for that ball. It comes with the territory. It was a hard hit that looked bad and that is it.

I don't want anyone injured either. But I also don't want our players playing soft or thinking about holding up in that situation. Think to the great defenses and tell me their DBs would have wrapped up instead of laying the wood in that situation. Not happening.

 

[Boffo97]

I'll never understand why people say this. Of course he/we wouldn't like it if it was one of ours on the receiving end of it.
I'll bet the Broncos fans would love it if it was one of their players dishing it out instead of taking it though.

That's how this stuff works. No false dichotomies needed.

This, plus I think if it happened to Quinn or Britt, I think most would still admit it was a fair hit, even if they didn't particularly like it.

 

[Mojo Ram]

Two things here. First of all I hardly call walking off the field with a concussion as "walks off the field in good shape."

Secondly, It's football and I like big hits too but that's a far cry from celebrating a hit that injures another player. I find myself thinking about this scenario sometime down the road:

What if I wake up and read that Sanders committed suicide due to CTE related problems. Would I remember how happy I was that we contributed to that?

I didn't start this out to moralize about this issue, I'm just pointing out that he needs to learn how to tackle correctly. Deja vu there for me.

Thoughtful post Alan, but i just can't go there. I enjoy physical old school football. What can i say?

 

[RamFan503]

This, plus I think if it happened to Quinn or Britt, I think most would still admit it was a fair hit, even if they didn't particularly like it.

I agree. At the time, I would have been pissed. Upon replay, I would only be concerned for our player. It was a hard hit and a very good play. That's really all there is to it.

 

[Alan]

-X- having trouble understanding:
I'll never understand why people say this. Of course he/we wouldn't like it if it was one of ours on the receiving end of it.
I'll bet the Broncos fans would love it if it was one of their players dishing it out instead of taking it though.

That's how this stuff works. No false dichotomies needed.

So let me splain how it works. Your scenario only works if a fan of team X (see what I did there?) actually likes it if one of theirs is dishing it out. As I plainly indicated that I'm not one of those who like it when a member of team Y gets hurt then your scenario falls apart. No false dichotomy involved and like you said, none needed.

Glad I could be of help.

However, just like with fights in Hockey, many fans love that kind of thing and I'm sure I'm in the minority about this but that's never stopped me in the past has it? Knowing that my view isn't a popular one I didn't attempt to rain on anyone's parade until I was forced to comment on it by Mojo's post. Like often happens and I'm not throwing rocks because I live in a glass house myself, this side issue has completely sidetracked a discussion of Gaines tackling skills (which I was trying and failing to start ).

Mojo Ram liking the good stuff:
Thoughtful post Alan, but i just can't go there. I enjoy physical old school football. What can i say?

I love old school football and the Gladiator movie and all the movies like it. Great stuff. It's only when it gets real that I don't like it. Like when we injured Palmer and my friend Cardncub has to live with the fact that, much like us, his hopes of a SB run are pretty much over.

I know, Debbie Downer eh?

 

[-X-]

So let me splain how it works. Your scenario only works if a fan of team X (see what I did there?) actually likes if one of theirs is dishing it out. As I plainly indicated that I'm not one of those who like it when a member of team Y gets hurt then your scenario falls apart. No false dichotomy involved and like you said, none needed.

Glad I could be of help.

However, just like with fights in Hockey, many fans love that kind of thing and I'm sure I'm in the minority about this but that's never stopped me in the past has it? Knowing that my view isn't a popular one I didn't attempt to rain on anyone's parade until I was forced to comment on it by Mojo's post. Like often happens and I'm not throwing rocks because I live in a glass house myself, this side issue has completely sidetracked a discussion of Gaines tackling skills (which I was trying and failing to start ).


I love old school football and the Gladiator movie and all the movies like it. Great stuff. It's only when it gets real that I don't like it. Like when we injured Palmer and my friend Cardncub has to live with the fact that, much like us, his hopes of a SB run are pretty much over.

I know, Debbie Downer eh?

I was referring to when you said "How would you like it if it happened to (insert Rams player here)." That's what I don't understand. When people say that. Having it happen to a Rams player isn't going to make anyone reevaluate what kind of football they like (e.g., physical and violent). That's the false dichotomy I'm referring to. And nobody "likes" to see another player get hurt. That's kind of a red herring too. All that's transpired is an appreciation for a highlight reel hit. And they call it highlight reel for a reason, yeah?

Oh, and incidentally, we didn't injure Palmer. He was injured on the job. As is the case with all players (100% injury rate league-wide).

 

[Alan]

RamFan503 with this:
Sorry Alan. Find a similar play anywhere where the DB uses the "proper form" you are eluding to in that kind of a situation. The DB's job is to make sure there is no catch there. Period. Wrapping up in that situation likely means the receiver can still hold on to the ball.

I have no desire to get into a long discussion about this but I'll say two things. I totally disagree with your contention that a proper tackle wouldn't have resulted in the same outcome. See now we're getting into one of my areas of expertise. Tell me the difference between running at full speed and then launching your whole body at another player attempting to catch a pass and just running into him with your shoulder at full speed. I believe that if you look at it from the standpoint of the physics involved you'll see that launching yourself increases the force involved due to the increased mass. As for finding a similar play, I wouldn't even know how to begin that search.

It's not the hit I don't like cause I loved it prior to finding out that Sanders has a concussion as a result of it. Takes all the fun out of it for me.

 

[Alan]

-X- with this:
All that's transpired is an appreciation for a highlight reel hit. And they call it highlight reel for a reason, yeah?

One man's highlight reel is another man's lowlight reel.

 

[-X-]

One man's highlight reel is another man's lowlight reel.

I guess. If by your own admission you liked it though, and only stopped liking it after they announced he had a concussion, then you're kind of setting yourself up for disappointment. Lots of these big plays (hits) come at a price.

 

[Alan]

-X- pointing out that emotions rarely make sense:
I guess. If by your own admission you liked it though, and only stopped liking it after they announced he had a concussion, then you're kind of setting yourself up for disappointment. Lots of these big plays (hits) come at a price.

So true but I'm on my third wife and you think I don't know all about disappointment? Come to think of it, I know all about the price too.

 

[RamFan503]

See now we're getting into one of my areas of expertise. Tell me the difference between running at full speed and then launching your whole body at another player attempting to catch a pass and just running into him with your shoulder at full speed. I believe that if you look at it from the standpoint of the physics involved you'll see that launching yourself increases the force involved due to the increased mass.

Huh? So are you saying he should have increased the force used on the play by wrapping him up with his whole body? Never seen that particular move before. But beyond that, isn't the force of the hit what we are really talking about here? Or are you suggesting that McLeod would have hit him harder by wrapping up?

OK - physics. Which would have a greater blunt force - a hammer hitting an object at a specific point, or a Ken doll's spread out arms given that both are moving at the same speed and carry the same weight?

You spread out the hit over your whole body - no? Whereas a shoulder hit if done properly is taking all that mass and concentrating it on a smaller point of contact. Maybe more simply put - which exerts more pressure on a given spot on the ground - standing on one foot or two?

Not only that but which is likely to cause more injury to OUR player in that situation?

It's not the hit I don't like cause I loved it prior to finding out that Sanders has a concussion as a result of it. Takes all the fun out of it for me.

Again - Huh? So McLeod made a hit you loved but shouldn't have because you later found out Sanders got his bell rung? So if Sanders head doesn't hit the ground like that, it was a great play? But because the guy was hurt a great play becomes a play that he shouldn't have made?

Wow - that's a bitchin fast car. Oh - someone wrecked it and hit their head on the dash? That car sucks.

 

[RamFan503]

One man's highlight reel is another man's lowlight reel.

So just stop the tape before you see Sanders' woozy look. Problem solved. Great play and all are happy.

 

[Alan]

RamFan503 with this:
Huh? So are you saying he should have increased the force used on the play by wrapping him up with his whole body? Never seen that particular move before. But beyond that, isn't the force of the hit what we are really talking about here? Or are you suggesting that McLeod would have hit him harder by wrapping up?

Yes. when your feet are still on the ground you're directing less mass to the player so if the speed is the same and it is, then the increased mass will always mean increased force.

OK - physics. Which would have a greater blunt force - a hammer hitting an object at a specific point, or a Ken doll's spread out arms given that both are moving at the same speed and carry the same weight?

But it's not the same weight as I explained above and what part of your body is going to be impacting on Sanders? Your shoulder. The top of you shoulder but it's still your shoulder. It's probably a smaller area physically than using the side of your shoulder but I haven't really haven't thought about that so I'm not claiming it. So your comment about the same amount of mass delivering greater force in a smaller area wouldn't apply because the area of impact is roughly the same. But again, like I said earlier, it's not the same mass so that point is moot.

You spread out the hit over your whole body - no? Whereas a shoulder hit if done properly is taking all that mass and concentrating it on a smaller point of contact. Maybe more simply put - which exerts more pressure on a given spot on the ground - standing on one foot or two?

Again, the weight is less for you, the speed is the same and the area of the impact is approximately equal.

Not only that but which is likely to cause more injury to OUR player in that situation?

I guess if I'm saying I'm applying more force I also have to say I'm absorbing more force. Which means I'm more likely to get injured too. Less than the other guy because I'm braced for it and he's concentrating on trying to catch a pass. But it would be less safer for me than if I used Gaines method.

Again - Huh? So McLeod made a hit you loved but shouldn't have because you later found out Sanders got his bell rung? So if Sanders head doesn't hit the ground like that, it was a great play? But because the guy was hurt a great play becomes a play that he shouldn't have made?

That's not exactly what I said. I said I loved it when I saw it until I found out about the concussion. At which time I no longer liked it. There's no "shouldn't have" involved. One is before the knowledge and the other is after it. I also didn't say it was a great play. I said I liked it. I like it like I like Gladiator movies and Conan movies. Doesn't mean I think it's a great movie. As I said to Mojo, I like watching those things too. I also never said I didn't think it was a great play. You're making assumptions that aren't true about how I feel. I don't understand your fixation about whether it was a great play or not.

Because the guy failed to catch the ball I gloried in the play. After I found out the guy got a concussion I no longer gloried in it and felt bad about it instead. That has nothing to do with whether the play was a good one or not.[/QUOTE]

 

[tklongball]

here is the other hit that might have, could have , maybe should have been a penalty

No, That play should absolutely NOT have been called a penalty (and rightfully was not). You are allowed to launch yourself, even at a defenseless receiver. What you are NOT allowed to do is hit them in the Head/Neck area, or lead with the Crown/Forehead area of your helmet. He did neither, so it is another perfectly legal hit.

By the way, thank you for posting that hit also. I have had a very hard time finding a replay of it.