Case Keenum is going to ruin Todd Gurley who will ruin Sam Bradford

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

dieterbrock

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
23,143
But you have to be able to project with football, otherwise how would you be able to draft someone? You can EASILY project that if Keenum had started those two games, we still lose
Easily? How so?
Remind me again who played QB this year when the Rams won in Seattle for the first time in forever?
Cincy game was lost largely due to Foles 3 INT, 1st one cost us points at the end of the 1st half (easily could have been 17-10) and his 2nd was a pick 6 that salted the game away. Even the 3rd one, down 24 in Cincy territory, stranger things have happened. But nope. Foles Picked
So no, I don't think Keenum "easily" loses that game. And the Arizona disaster? Was a close game (Thanks to the D) in to the 2nd half.

I don't know how things would have played out, but just to assume they'd lose is fairly defeatist. They won in Seattle, so IMO they could win anywhere.
 

dieterbrock

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
23,143
And we barely threw in that game because we were stomping the crap out of Houston.
So wait, when we were beating Houston handily it made sense they didn't throw much, but against Tampa/Detroit/Seattle Keenum was supposed to pass? That's not Fisher, doesn't matter who his QB. Like you said, he did it with Bradford
Furthermore, Fisher feeds Gurley when the game is on the line. That's not a knock on Keenum or whoever the QB is. Leaving him out of the equation is just not right
 

FrantikRam

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
4,751
Easily? How so?
Remind me again who played QB this year when the Rams won in Seattle for the first time in forever?
Cincy game was lost largely due to Foles 3 INT, 1st one cost us points at the end of the 1st half (easily could have been 17-10) and his 2nd was a pick 6 that salted the game away. Even the 3rd one, down 24 in Cincy territory, stranger things have happened. But nope. Foles Picked
So no, I don't think Keenum "easily" loses that game. And the Arizona disaster? Was a close game (Thanks to the D) in to the 2nd half.

I don't know how things would have played out, but just to assume they'd lose is fairly defeatist. They won in Seattle, so IMO they could win anywhere.


I completely disagree. We've consistently played Seattle well, and Keenum didn't do much in that game - the way the defense played, we likely win that game with any of the QBs we've trotted out there.

We would not have beaten Cincy or Arizona with Keenum or any other QB on the roster.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,832
So wait, when we were beating Houston handily it made sense they didn't throw much, but against Tampa/Detroit/Seattle Keenum was supposed to pass? That's not Fisher, doesn't matter who his QB. Like you said, he did it with Bradford

Yes. Keenum is supposed to pass. We certainly didn't refuse to pass any time we had a lead under Bradford. You're taking one game where we beat the tar out of Houston and treating it as indicative of the way Fisher always acted with Bradford. It's simply not true.

That theory works fine for why Keenum barely threw the ball against Tampa Bay. The other games...not so much.

Furthermore, Fisher feeds Gurley when the game is on the line. That's not a knock on Keenum or whoever the QB is. Leaving him out of the equation is just not right

I've already addressed this point. Fisher didn't just keep Keenum's attempts down when the game was on the line. Keenum barely threw the ball in the first half of games.
 

Ozoneranger

Rookie
Joined
Feb 7, 2013
Messages
127
I saw Keenum play in Santa Clara. I was really curious to see how he'd do against an inferior opponent after the stellar (for him) game he had in Seattle.

He was awful, misfiring all over the place. In fairness, he didn't have Gurley, but Cunningham did a good job after replacing Mason.

I saw all I needed to see. Good, backup, not starter material. If the Rams don't draft a QB, I hope they really get Mannion going in OTAs and training camp.
 

Angry Ram

Captain RAmerica Original Rammer
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
17,901
What more do I want? 4000+ yards, 30 TDs, and a 100 QB Rating. But I'd settle for less. I'm not, however, settling for less than a legitimate starting QB. Case ain't that.

He's played in the equivilant of a 16 game season and had a bit over 3000 yards, 15 TDs, and 9 INTs. That's basically rookie type numbers in an offense that isn't, say the Saints.

And his numbers are poor. It's great that he's cut down the INTs but he also doesn't even routinely throw for 200 yards. That's a problem in today's NFL. I'm not a numbers guy but the play on the field explains why the Rams don't trust him enough to let him sling the ball more.

Based on what you are clamoring for #s wise...

12 QBs threw for 4000+ yards, 4 of them were on playoff teams (Russell Wilson, Carson Palmer, Tom Brady, and Kirk Cousins). True, Ben Roethlisberger easily could've eclipsed if he didn't get hurt.
10 QBs had 30 or more TD passes, 4 of them were on playoff teams.
17 QBs had a 100+ QB rating, 11 of them weren't even full time starters (backups or WR/RB doing trick plays). 4 of those 6 were on playoff teams. A very small number.

But if you aren't a numbers guy, it shouldn't matter to begin with. As long as he is competent and has control of the offense.

Also your basis on Rams not trusting him to sling is wrong b/c of 2 reasons: 1. It's not the Rams style to do that; and 2., the game logs says other wise. It's a nice mix b/w run and pass, leaning a bit more heavy toward the run. And why not, you got Todd Gurely back there.

The losses in Houston weren't entirely on him and the wins in St. Louis weren't entirely on him either. But people want to talk record. So I talked record.

I didn't say they were. It just means he's not as bad as you think he is. I don't think signing your boy Chase Daniel would magically make this team better.

The Pittsburgh Steelers were 16th out of 32 teams in passes attempted this year. They attempted 590 passes. That's about 37 passes per game. Case averaged 25 attempts per game. That's nothing in today's NFL. The Rams weren't throwing the ball. In 4 of his 5 starts, we ran the ball more than we passed it. That's not a normal thing in today's NFL. The Rams took the ball out of Keenum's hands. And it's easy to understand why.

Umm, you do know I'm like the only Steeler fan here, right? I know damn well of how that team played. IDK why you are bringing them up in the first place. But since I'm a fan of that team I'll play along. It's a different offensive mindset to begin with. Also, they lost Le'Veon Bell for most of the year. In 2014 he played all 16 games and Ben attempted 408 passes. That is....wait for this, you are gonna love this....25.5 passes a game. A whopping more than what Case Keenum attempted. So in other words, you got a star like Le'Veon Bell or TGII of course you are gonna take the ball out of the QBs hand to be more balanced. And that's exactly what the Rams did. Sure, if you add up those couple carries by backup RBs, gadget plays by Tavon, and QB scrambles of course the rush attempts are gonna be higher than the total pass attempts. That doesn't mean they don't trust him or trying to take the ball out of his hands.

But in your obsession to downplay Case and scream for a replacement you twist the numbers and use words (i.e. taking the ball out of his hands) that paints him in a negative light. I don't think anyone here thinks Case Keenum is or ever will be a superstar, simply put what is currently available in FA or the draft may not necessarily be better than what Case is right now. If the team feels like there is, they'll make their move.

What I said was 100% true. I wasn't talking about Keenum's passing stats. Read over X's post again and you'll see what I was responding to. (y)

You and @-X- were going back and forth about Sam Bradford vs. Case. And opponents records. Unless I missed something, you were the one that brought up the shitchicken game itself, and said it was the game that bolstered his numbers. Which isn't true at all. I mean it's right there at NFL.com. It was the lowest number of all.

Kind of ironic that you would make that point because I was thinking the opposite. Seems like you're arguing for continuity for the sake of continuity. Case isn't good enough. I'm not advocating for change for change's sake. I'm advocating for change because there are better options out there.

Not really. I don't buy into the better options out there. You don't know that for a fact. Maybe a rookie will indeed be better. Again I don't think that replacing Case with an outside guy will necessarily be magically better.
 

dieterbrock

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
23,143
I completely disagree. We've consistently played Seattle well, and Keenum didn't do much in that game - the way the defense played, we likely win that game with any of the QBs we've trotted out there.

We would not have beaten Cincy or Arizona with Keenum or any other QB on the roster.
You're not disagreeing, you're just not discussing. Both of those games were winnable games, and were closer than the final score indicates. But both games were lost largely in part to horrific play by Foles
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,832
He's played in the equivilant of a 16 game season and had a bit over 3000 yards, 15 TDs, and 9 INTs. That's basically rookie type numbers in an offense that isn't, say the Saints.

So he's put up nothing special rookie type numbers over his second, third, and fourth years in the NFL? Ain't that the problem?

I didn't say they were. It just means he's not as bad as you think he is. I don't think signing your boy Chase Daniel would magically make this team better.

Nothing magic about it. Daniel is a better QB imo. Which will make the team better.

Umm, you do know I'm like the only Steeler fan here, right? I know damn well of how that team played. IDK why you are bringing them up in the first place.

The Steelers were not relevant to the point being made. I took the median NFL team to show you how many passing attempts per game the median NFL team had in 2015. The Pittsburgh Steelers were that team. The point would have stayed the same if it were the Baltimore Ravens or the Jacksonville Jaguars. The only relevant parts of the point were the numbers. It was pure coincidence that you are a Steelers fan and that team happened to be the Steelers.

But in your obsession to downplay Case and scream for a replacement you twist the numbers and use words (i.e. taking the ball out of his hands) that paints him in a negative light. I don't think anyone here thinks Case Keenum is or ever will be a superstar, simply put what is currently available in FA or the draft may not necessarily be better than what Case is right now. If the team feels like there is, they'll make their move.

I use words that are accurate and numbers that are accurate. Case gets painted in a "negative" light by me because he's not good enough. That simple. Keenum is hardly the first Rams starter to be criticized for not being good enough.

You and @-X- were going back and forth about Sam Bradford vs. Case. And opponents records. Unless I missed something, you were the one that brought up the shitchicken game itself, and said it was the game that bolstered his numbers. Which isn't true at all. I mean it's right there at NFL.com. It was the lowest number of all.

Yes. That's it. The bold is the point. Seattle's record. Not the stats he put up.

Not really. I don't buy into the better options out there. You don't know that for a fact. Maybe a rookie will indeed be better. Again I don't think that replacing Case with an outside guy will necessarily be magically better.

There are better options out there. You'll see.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,832
You're not disagreeing, you're just not discussing. Both of those games were winnable games, and were closer than the final score indicates. But both games were lost largely in part to horrific play by Foles

Okay...but Keenum played horribly against the Ravens the week before. Who's to say he's any better? Plus, Arizona's offense kicked our ass in that game. Foles sucked but they were having their way with our defense that day.

I'm with Frank. Keenum wouldn't have changed the outcome in those games. Score likely would have been closer but we still would have lost.

Keenum might have changed the outcome against Green Bay, Pittsburgh, or Minnesota, though.
 

BatteringRambo

Inked Gym Rat Stoner
Joined
Jul 7, 2010
Messages
3,893
Name
J.Fo
[GALLERY=media, 84]Get-the-bong_o_1249929 by BatteringRambo posted Mar 24, 2016 at 4:54 PM[/GALLERY]
 

Angry Ram

Captain RAmerica Original Rammer
Joined
Jul 1, 2010
Messages
17,901
So he's put up nothing special rookie type numbers over his second, third, and fourth years in the NFL? Ain't that the problem?

I mean you said you'd settle for less.

Nothing magic about it. Daniel is a better QB imo. Which will make the team better.

Meh. Chase Daniel hasn't even had significant playing time, is 29, and is on his 4th team now. IDK what you have that shows him better than Case. Just b/c you say you like him doesn't mean it'll be so.

The Steelers were not relevant to the point being made. I took the median NFL team to show you how many passing attempts per game the median NFL team had in 2015. The Pittsburgh Steelers were that team. The point would have stayed the same if it were the Baltimore Ravens or the Jacksonville Jaguars. The only relevant parts of the point were the numbers. It was pure coincidence that you are a Steelers fan and that team happened to be the Steelers.

Well why didn't you say so? And if we play that game, including Pittsburgh 8 of the 12 playoff teams were 16 or below. So no, it's not really a problem for attempts.

I use words that are accurate and numbers that are accurate. Case gets painted in a "negative" light by me because he's not good enough. That simple. Keenum is hardly the first Rams starter to be criticized for not being good enough.

Not really. You use them b/c you are obsessed with the team wanting someone from the outside that isn't likely going to be an obvious upgrade. Case isn't any better or any worse than what is currently available. And again, if the team feels there is, they will make their move.

Yes. That's it. The bold is the point. Seattle's record. Not the stats he put up.

OK. You still brought up that the shitchicken game bolstered his numbers.

There are better options out there. You'll see.

Meh.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,832
I mean you said you'd settle for less.

Yea...less than 4000 yards and 30 TDs. Not a backup QB.

Meh. Chase Daniel hasn't even had significant playing time, is 29, and is on his 4th team now. IDK what you have that shows him better than Case. Just b/c you say you like him doesn't mean it'll be so.

Film.

Well why didn't you say so? And if we play that game, including Pittsburgh 8 of the 12 playoff teams were 16 or below. So no, it's not really a problem for attempts.

I did. My original post states why I chose the Steelers. It's also irrelevant to my point where the playoff teams ranked. Picking a median team is a benchmark for comparison.

Not really. You use them b/c you are obsessed with the team wanting someone from the outside that isn't likely going to be an obvious upgrade. Case isn't any better or any worse than what is currently available. And again, if the team feels there is, they will make their move.

No, I use them because I'm obsessed with having a starting caliber QB. There are players that are very obvious upgrades.

OK. You still brought up that the shitchicken game bolstered his numbers.

X:
When did the Rams play a hard schedule with Bradford during his wins? His opponents in his wins went 16-32 in 2013. Keenum's opponents in his wins went 23-25. That's what you wanted me to focus on, right? 2013? Keenum did very little because they asked him to do very little.

Me:
Seems very disingenuous to only count his opponents in wins. Why not overall? Keenum's numbers are majorly bolstered by the win at Seattle despite him doing very little in that game.

You misunderstood the point. Own it and let's move on. It's pretty clear the conversation was about opponent W-L record and I was responding that his opponent W-L record was bolstered by the win at Seattle despite him not producing much in that game.
 

-X-

Medium-sized Lebowski
Joined
Jun 20, 2010
Messages
35,576
Name
The Dude
was responding that his opponent W-L record was bolstered by the win at Seattle despite him not producing much in that game.
Why does that matter if he doesn't have to do any more than what he did? 23 pass attempts, 22 rush attempts, and win on the road. Just a week later, that same Seahawks team held Carson Palmer to 12 completions, 1td and 1int in their house.

Hell, I saw Bradford beat the Cardinals once where he completed 7 passes the whole game. Doesn't a win in which the QB doesn't fuck up the game count for anything? Or are we just going to qualify everything Keenum does in order to make a win look bad and a loss look worse?
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,832
Why does that matter if he doesn't have to do any more than what he did? 23 pass attempts, 22 rush attempts, and win on the road. Just a week later, that same Seahawks team held Carson Palmer to 12 completions, 1td and 1int in their house.

Hell, I saw Bradford beat the Cardinals once where he completed 7 passes the whole game. Doesn't a win in which the QB doesn't freak up the game count for anything? Or are we just going to qualify everything Keenum does in order to make a win look bad and a loss look worse?

Not in this case. Not when we're discussing whether a guy is a legitimate starter.

Why does it matter? Because there will be games where more is needed. We need someone who can rise to the occasion. I don't believe Keenum can. That is why it matters to me. It's a problem if he can't be relied on to take over games when we need it.
 

OldSchool

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Nov 3, 2013
Messages
39,085
There are three games in NFL in the last 12 years where the teams combined for 1100+ yards and two of them had Chad Henne at QB. Clearly we should sign him!
 

dieterbrock

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
23,143
I didn't say it was a close game, I said it was closer than the score indicated. Was a 7 point game at half and only down 14 late in 3rd
 

dieterbrock

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Messages
23,143
I didn't say they were. It just means he's not as bad as you think he is. I don't think signing your boy Chase Daniel would magically make this team better.
This is it in a nutshell for me. I don't have any delusions of Grandeur that lead me to believe Keenum is the next Kurt Warner. And I don't think he's the "QB of the future" so to speak. But he's clearly the best QB we have right now, and as ugly as it was, we can win with him.
So yeah, he has his weak spots, but he's just as good for this team IMO than anyone who was available.
And what just makes me shake my head is some assertion that a Chase Daniel, who has been nothing but a clipboard holder is some sort of upgrade.
 

Akrasian

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
4,929
But you know, there is "Film" of Chase Daniel, showing how good he is. All 77 career pass attempts, since 2009. He looked great, that's why he was in huge demand as a starter. Of course, his attempts came when defenses were expecting another QB than him, and hadn't prepared - but still. There's preseason! against 2nd/3rd string players some of whom actually made the roster! How can you doubt the Chase?