Wisdom from the enemy? Whiner board HC search thread

[Billy Baroo]

For one, he actually has a personality and players listen to him. Linehan had no ability to command a locker room and you could tell. When players don't take you or your message seriously, it's hard to be a HC.

I saw more in this video right here than I ever did from Linehan.

http://www.redskins.com/media-galle...ing-Camp/59bd872a-df8c-4a79-91ac-33fc794a7257

Looks/sounds like a OC working with his unit. Not being a douche but how do we know that this is not typical rapport b/t OC and offense.

 

[ramfan46]

And by all accounts he is. Chris Cooley said that he had never been taught the finer points of playing TE until 24 year old McVay was promoted. Every single player under him has talked about his character and detail oriented approach. Guys like Bill Callahan praise him heavily for being so good so young.

Back to the Cooley thing, quotes like this get me excited.



The guy is a football prodigy in my eyes. Find me something other than his age that tells me he COULDN'T do it.

McVay does give off that prodigy vibe where he understands football on a deeper level than most people. I'm a huge motorsports fan as well as football and McVay gives me the young Jeff Gordon or Kyle Busch vibe. Meaning he's one of the rare few that are ready much earlier for the bright lights than most. He could be a flop, but I think he could be the next "guy" in the coaching ranks. When you have "It" age is not a factor. My only major question is can he attract a strong coaching staff?

 

[Rambitious1]

Seems to be some sanity on the Whiner board, however we can only hope the team remains as "Shite for Brains" as it has been recently.

 

[TheDYVKX]

Looks/sounds like a OC working with his unit. Not being a douche but how do we know that this is not typical rapport b/t OC and offense.

I've watched plenty of mic'd ups with players and coaches interacting. To me, McVay definitely stood out as a leader compared to a lot of other coaches. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm definitely more impressed with him than say, Scott Linehan or Steve Spagnuolo. He carries with him a much different vibe.

 

[TheDYVKX]

McVay does give off that prodigy vibe where he understands football on a deeper level than most people. I'm a huge motorsports fan as well as football and McVay gives me the young Jeff Gordon or Kyle Busch vibe. Meaning he's one of the rare few that are ready much earlier for the bright lights than most. He could be a flop, but I think he could be the next "guy" in the coaching ranks. When you have "It" age is not a factor. My only major question is can he attract a strong coaching staff?

That's definitely the big question. Doesn't matter how good of a HC you are, without a quality staff you'll fail. Who he wants to bring in (and who he'd actually bring in) are important factors in these interviews. We'll see if he gets hired, and what he does.

 

[Billy Baroo]

I've watched plenty of mic'd ups with players and coaches interacting. To me, McVay definitely stood out as a leader compared to a lot of other coaches. Maybe I'm wrong, but I'm definitely more impressed with him than say, Scott Linehan or Steve Spagnuolo. He carries with him a much different vibe.

Gotcha. The Linehan/Spags bar is very low though. Hopefully we're demanding a higher standard.

 

[TheDYVKX]

Gotcha. The Linehan/Spags bar is very low though. Hopefully we're demanding a higher standard.

Just what someone else in this thread compared him to, so I brought it back to that. I think he's up there with a lot of good coaches though, as far as those qualities. I think that's what interviews are for though, and I read recently that sometimes they'll bring in psychologists and other things to determine the type of person and leader they are. I assume we'll have done our homework on that, because that's his biggest question, 1) Can he lead and motivate a team and 2) Can he assemble a great staff

I don't see anything that tells me he can't be a great HC. If the Rams hire him, that means they didn't see anything either.

 

[Zodi]

The guy is a football prodigy in my eyes. Find me something other than his age that tells me he COULDN'T do it.

It's not so much his age, but the scope (or lack thereof) his experience thus far. Positional coach's assistant to college positional coach to NFL positional coach to coordinating one side of the ball for (now) three seasons. There's so much more involved with being a head coach than simple X's and O's.

You hire your head coach to run your team. When you hire a coach based on his ability to direct one side of the ball, I think you're setting your team up for failure. There are definitely exceptions, and McVay (or Shanahan) might be one. We'll have to see.

 

[bomebadeeda]

While there certainly needs to be talent for a coordinator (or any coach to succeed), there also has to be some luck for things to fall into the desired pattern that person has put forth. Linehan was undone by the rash of injuries we had that 2nd season of his. And when it was exposed he didn't plan well enough to have the needed (or a better term would be desired...) depth...things fell apart. While he might have been a genius @ X's and O's......he failed miserably at dealing w/ the pressures of things not going in the right direction. In other words......he scripted a great 15 plays........he just sucked at adapting the rest of the way.
Spags on the other hand.....tried to micromanage everything. And with his lack of success, rubbed people the wrong way.
Now what does this have to do w/ our coaching search today......not as much as Robert Quinn turning back into the beast he was or Tavon playing to the level of his contract......in other words....a lot of luck.

 

[Mackeyser]

Seems to me that there is a singular difference between McVay and Kyle Shanahan that has me strongly favoring McVay.

BOTH are extremely detail oriented. That's a very good thing.

However, how it's manifested is very different and that makes all the difference.

McVay, as Cooley noted, imparts immense amounts of knowledge and details as befits a coach of much more age and experience. As a player, he felt empowered...almost cheated that he didn't have more time with him as a coach. Thus, the detail is imparted in an empowering way, put in to help the player succeed in their assignment which helps the team succeed. It's an inside out approach which in the "age of accountability" where players in a team sport are often penalized or rewarded for things far beyond their control, having a coach build them up and have that be the genesis of the team's success is going to build not only loyalty, but that critical synergy that gets those 2nd and 3rd tier guys to step in when the starters get injured.

Shanahan, on the other hand, is more of a taskmaster. As has been noted, he will drill...and drill...and drill...until guys get it right. The knowledge is imparted, not so much to build up the player, but because it's the right way to execute the play or the offense. It's the right way and players will need to get on board with the right way. Not that there isn't success in that. There most definitely is. Or can be. However, as we've seen with McDaniels, that "right way" mentality doesn't translate to every situation and can really alienate players. If that alienates core players, that's a problem. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Shanahan has been really hard on Matt Ryan. REALLY HARD. Is that the best learning environment for Jared Goff? Not saying the kid's not tough. We've seen that he is physically tough. However, if you look at Sonny Dykes' mentality, he was an "encourager", not a taskmaster. Frankly, taskmasters can wear a person's butt out. It gets tired after a while.

That, to me, seems to be the difference.

McVay seems to be a prodigy in more ways than just Xs and Os, more than just technique...all of which are extraordinary. He seems to be a prodigy in HOW he connects not only with players, many of whom are older than he is, but also much older coaches who seem to gravitate to him and respect him.

When it came time to first address the team this year, iirc, it wasn't Jay Gruden who did it...it was Sean McVay. The fact that the first address, often the address that sets the tone for the entire year was delegated to someone SO YOUNG speaks volumes to me, considering that Gruden should have wanted that privilege and he's got a former HC in Callahan who would have done well giving that as well.

When we talk about the pitfalls of going the Coordinator route, this is where McVay shines and Shanahan has issues. Because NO ONE questions McVay's leadership whereas Shanahan has these flags where one must question if he will get buy in from everyone.

Will Shanahan's attempt to bring in a "culture of winning" be a "my way or the highway" attitude? It seems so, by all accounts and that's very concerning.

Otoh, it seems that McVay's approach is about empowering players to be the best possible versions of themselves which not only appeals to their self-interest in their Not For Long career, but also their team interests.

I still think that Asshole Face is the BEST option for this Rams team. Bar NONE.

However, if the Rams are not going to entertain that, McVay, to me, is the second best option.

I still like Kyle Shanahan. A lot. However, if he were hired, I'd be concerned about his staff and the team morale once they actually started installs and they got a taste of his idea of "the right way"....

No, I don't put O'Brien above any of these folks. McDaniels isn't a consideration for me. Patricia is, tho after Shanahan, and I think if he brought in Vrabel, the LB coach of the Texans, iirc, as the DC, that'd be a heckuva defensive staff at the top. Before I got any more excited about Patricia, I'd have to see all his offensive coaches...OC, OL, QB, RB, WR, TE... We need quality at all of those spots.

But the idea that Vrabel might be a DC...soon. That's about right, actually. His LBs play lights out.

 

[dieterbrock]

How was Mike McCarthy different from Linehan?

This is a rhetorical answer, so please don't insinuate I'm challenging anything you said. Just seems a good starting point
McCarthy had such an unimpressive resume when he was hired by Green Bay. Was a head scratcher. Guess it helps to have Brett Favre as QB and Aaron Rodgers about to happen. Hard to say what Mac would have been had he been handed the Rams at that time.
There is no perfect science for hiring the "right guy" because most importantly, the next great coach may not be available. So its best available. How to pick that is also a head scratcher. There is no exact science. Linehan had a good resume when he came to the Rams, ran a good/great offense in Minnesota and a decent offense in Miami under Saban. In fact, his success in Detroit and Dallas only makes that look stronger. I don't want him coaching the Rams, but he should be a solid choice.

 

[OldSchool]

This is a rhetorical answer, so please don't insinuate I'm challenging anything you said. Just seems a good starting point
McCarthy had such an unimpressive resume when he was hired by Green Bay. Was a head scratcher. Guess it helps to have Brett Favre as QB and Aaron Rodgers about to happen. Hard to say what Mac would have been had he been handed the Rams at that time.
There is no perfect science for hiring the "right guy" because most importantly, the next great coach may not be available. So its best available. How to pick that is also a head scratcher. There is no exact science. Linehan had a good resume when he came to the Rams, ran a good/great offense in Minnesota and a decent offense in Miami under Saban. In fact, his success in Detroit and Dallas only makes that look stronger. I don't want him coaching the Rams, but he should be a solid choice.

The thing I was trying to convey in this thread is exactly what you just said. There is no exact science in this. You take the guy with a good history that does the best job selling himself, his plan and his vision of your roster. We don't know which of these candidates will succeed or not and there are always factors beyond their control.

 

[dieterbrock]

The thing I was trying to convey in this thread is exactly what you just said. There is no exact science in this. You take the guy with a good history that does the best job selling himself, his plan and his vision of your roster. We don't know which of these candidates will succeed or not and there are always factors beyond their control.

I was trying to formulate a list of coaches over the past 20 years and group by how long they held the job, and what their position was prior. It turned out to be much more work than anticipated... It is truly amazing how much turnover there is, and how little correlation there is from one firing to the next (other than consistent losing, that's always a high %)

 

[DaveFan'51]

Don't string this thing out to where your new coach is behind the eight ball on hiring the key assistants.

This^^!!!! I agree with 10000000%!!

 

[Merlin]

The thing I was trying to convey in this thread is exactly what you just said. There is no exact science in this. You take the guy with a good history that does the best job selling himself, his plan and his vision of your roster. We don't know which of these candidates will succeed or not and there are always factors beyond their control.

This is true, but I believe in today's league you need to retain a top offensive or defensive mind in your head coaching position in order to have sustained success. Reason for this is the staff poaching that goes on, and in the past couple years it has been very heavy on offensive minds due to the lack of QBs and QB development we are seeing league-wide.

Fish is a great example of how leadership alone is not enough. He probably would have won if he had top coordinators on both sides of the ball, but getting them and keeping them on your staff is not an easy thing. So hiring one of them as your head coach and growing him into those other things you want is the way to go IMO.

If I'm Kroenke right now that is what I'm looking for, and given the fact that our offense is behind the 8 ball I would definitely go offensive minded head coach. Hire him, set him up with a young GM who is also on the rise who can support him and work hand in hand, and then show some patience as he grows into that position. Whoever they hire, that patience is going to be important.

 

[TheDYVKX]

Seems to me that there is a singular difference between McVay and Kyle Shanahan that has me strongly favoring McVay.

BOTH are extremely detail oriented. That's a very good thing.

However, how it's manifested is very different and that makes all the difference.

McVay, as Cooley noted, imparts immense amounts of knowledge and details as befits a coach of much more age and experience. As a player, he felt empowered...almost cheated that he didn't have more time with him as a coach. Thus, the detail is imparted in an empowering way, put in to help the player succeed in their assignment which helps the team succeed. It's an inside out approach which in the "age of accountability" where players in a team sport are often penalized or rewarded for things far beyond their control, having a coach build them up and have that be the genesis of the team's success is going to build not only loyalty, but that critical synergy that gets those 2nd and 3rd tier guys to step in when the starters get injured.

Shanahan, on the other hand, is more of a taskmaster. As has been noted, he will drill...and drill...and drill...until guys get it right. The knowledge is imparted, not so much to build up the player, but because it's the right way to execute the play or the offense. It's the right way and players will need to get on board with the right way. Not that there isn't success in that. There most definitely is. Or can be. However, as we've seen with McDaniels, that "right way" mentality doesn't translate to every situation and can really alienate players. If that alienates core players, that's a problem. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Shanahan has been really hard on Matt Ryan. REALLY HARD. Is that the best learning environment for Jared Goff? Not saying the kid's not tough. We've seen that he is physically tough. However, if you look at Sonny Dykes' mentality, he was an "encourager", not a taskmaster. Frankly, taskmasters can wear a person's butt out. It gets tired after a while.

That, to me, seems to be the difference.

McVay seems to be a prodigy in more ways than just Xs and Os, more than just technique...all of which are extraordinary. He seems to be a prodigy in HOW he connects not only with players, many of whom are older than he is, but also much older coaches who seem to gravitate to him and respect him.

When it came time to first address the team this year, iirc, it wasn't Jay Gruden who did it...it was Sean McVay. The fact that the first address, often the address that sets the tone for the entire year was delegated to someone SO YOUNG speaks volumes to me, considering that Gruden should have wanted that privilege and he's got a former HC in Callahan who would have done well giving that as well.

When we talk about the pitfalls of going the Coordinator route, this is where McVay shines and Shanahan has issues. Because NO ONE questions McVay's leadership whereas Shanahan has these flags where one must question if he will get buy in from everyone.

Will Shanahan's attempt to bring in a "culture of winning" be a "my way or the highway" attitude? It seems so, by all accounts and that's very concerning.

Otoh, it seems that McVay's approach is about empowering players to be the best possible versions of themselves which not only appeals to their self-interest in their Not For Long career, but also their team interests.

I still think that Asshole Face is the BEST option for this Rams team. Bar NONE.

However, if the Rams are not going to entertain that, McVay, to me, is the second best option.

I still like Kyle Shanahan. A lot. However, if he were hired, I'd be concerned about his staff and the team morale once they actually started installs and they got a taste of his idea of "the right way"....

No, I don't put O'Brien above any of these folks. McDaniels isn't a consideration for me. Patricia is, tho after Shanahan, and I think if he brought in Vrabel, the LB coach of the Texans, iirc, as the DC, that'd be a heckuva defensive staff at the top. Before I got any more excited about Patricia, I'd have to see all his offensive coaches...OC, OL, QB, RB, WR, TE... We need quality at all of those spots.

But the idea that Vrabel might be a DC...soon. That's about right, actually. His LBs play lights out.

Well said. A lot better than I was able to articulate. That's what I see from McVay that I don't see from the other candidates.

 

[Mackeyser]

You see that in the military a lot. You either have leadership or you don't. It's like charisma in some ways. You can learn leadership skill like you can learn to be more charismatic, but it won't ever eclipse someone who's a natural leader or who's naturally charismatic.

Which is tough because there may be officers or NCOs who have all the technical expertise to succeed, but lack the people skills or OB&M skills to relate to the triangle of people, mission and command and all the possible interactions.

It's why I'm not sweating McVay's age. He seems to be a natural. He'll relate well to young players, both on a selfish level (how do I get better so I get paid in this league?) and on a competitive level (winning rocks and losing sucks. How do we get winning in this locker room?).

When players are operating simultaneously all in with both halves of their brain, that's when they get that tunnel vision they make effects for in movies.

I dunno. This next week is gonna feel like a long week waiting on that Shanahan interview...

 

[JackDRams]

30 seconds on their board and I had to leave. Site sucks ass. Not user friendly at all. Just the format they use hurts my eyes. I'm glad ROD actually cares what the site looks like. Unlike that horse crap excuse of a site.

 

[Merlin]

You see that in the military a lot. You either have leadership or you don't. It's like charisma in some ways. You can learn leadership skill like you can learn to be more charismatic, but it won't ever eclipse someone who's a natural leader or who's naturally charismatic.

Which is tough because there may be officers or NCOs who have all the technical expertise to succeed, but lack the people skills or OB&M skills to relate to the triangle of people, mission and command and all the possible interactions.

It's why I'm not sweating McVay's age. He seems to be a natural. He'll relate well to young players, both on a selfish level (how do I get better so I get paid in this league?) and on a competitive level (winning rocks and losing sucks. How do we get winning in this locker room?).

When players are operating simultaneously all in with both halves of their brain, that's when they get that tunnel vision they make effects for in movies.

I dunno. This next week is gonna feel like a long week waiting on that Shanahan interview...

I'm with you guys on McVay for similar reasons. It's a feel thing for me and that's understanding that I'm good with any of the offensive types for this particular job. I simply think McVay is going to succeed.

He's also real smooth as a speaker and on camera, with the press. That's gonna matter too in LA. He's gotta win, sure, but all these kid coordinators are going to need support and patience from the Rams to grow them to greatness. So let's get one of them ffs, hopefully McV but if not so be it, and go all in with him in the hopes this offense gets on track quickly.

 

[Zodi]

Gotta admit, the more and more I watch McVay, the more I like the dude. Not sure if he's the best candidate for the job, but I definitely prefer him over the Shanahans.

I do wonder what kind of staff McVay would attract.

McDaniels and Patricia are still my favorite candidates, leaning more towards the latter as of late. McVay just might be third tho.