Where Austin Davis, Shaun Hill fit for Rams/Wagoner

[Thordaddy]

Minor point but you have the defensive numbers reversed and Hill was the QB for the Denver game.

But it is actually more stark than that. During the time that Davis was behind center, we allowed 217 points if you take out the 21 from Davis turnovers. During Hill's time behind center, our defense allowed 109 points if you take away the TD fumble. That 217 points was in 8 1/2 games whereas the 109 was in 7 1/2 games. Is there a QB in the league in the last 10 years that had a winning percentage when his team allowed 25.5 points per game? Meanwhile, 14.5 points per game while Hill was in there is a bit more reasonable - no? And then you really have to consider that two of the wins with Hill were against the Raiduhs and Redskins - two highly dysfunctional teams with really poorly performing defenses.

I don't think anyone is making the case that Davis is the next coming of Brett Favre like some did after a couple good games early on but he also isn't the worst we could do IMO. Go back and watch the Philly game. With even a decent O-line and defensive effort, we win that game BECAUSE of Davis. See if you don't agree that he was the better QB on the field that day. IMO it's not even close.

I reversed them to show the differentials, yeah I tried to edit the Denver mistake too late, but EVEN IF the two are a push the thoughtn Davis could achieve that when one started with 30+ starts and the other none and to think they are headed in opposite directions AND we are considering Garcia as QB coach, which one would I expect the Rams are leaning towards? Davis and a draftee

 

[CoachO]

I think this deserves to be said again and again, and the idea that Davis has no upside is ludicrous EVERYONE his age has upside if they will work on it

I wish I shared your optimism towards Davis, but I have seen the same sorry act for 3 years. I just can't get past the FACT that this is the same guy who was a week away from being back coaching High School football were it not for Bradford's injury.

He has demonstrated the same inconsistent traits for all 3 years of training camp, where he will make a "wow" play, then miss a wide open receiver standing 30 feet away. And when I say miss, I mean throwing the ball at his feet. He is the same guy, who bails on the pocket in "7 0n 7" drills where there is NO PASS RUSH, because he has no idea where the ball needs to go. Seeing that occur on a regular basis once given his "chance" was expected. To ignore the game changing "pick 6's" and the frequency with which they occurred, is ignoring a glaring issue with him. His lack of accuracy, and decision making has to be called into question. His lack of arm strength was apparent in the frequent passes he attempted to make when guys would get behind the secondary and he forced the ball and severely under thew the ball. Interception vs. KC was a prime example of that. Another instance when he tried to get the ball to Givens, and was at least 10 yards under thrown.

To expect that he somehow can find that upside, IMO, is just as ludicrous as you seem to think on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I do think they will try to bring him back to training camp for yet another look see. But I just don't think he has the upside as you obviously do.

 

[Thordaddy]

I wish I shared your optimism towards Davis, but I have seen the same sorry act for 3 years. I just can't get past the FACT that this is the same guy who was a week away from being back coaching High School football were it not for Bradford's injury.

He has demonstrated the same inconsistent traits for all 3 years of training camp, where he will make a "wow" play, then miss a wide open receiver standing 30 feet away. And when I say miss, I mean throwing the ball at his feet. He is the same guy, who bails on the pocket in "7 0n 7" drills where there is NO PASS RUSH, because he has no idea where the ball needs to go. Seeing that occur on a regular basis once given his "chance" was expected. To ignore the game changing "pick 6's" and the frequency with which they occurred, is ignoring a glaring issue with him. His lack of accuracy, and decision making has to be called into question. To expect that he somehow can find that upside, IMO, is just as ludicrous as you seem to think on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I do think they will try to bring him back to training camp for yet another look see. But I just don't think he has the upside as you obviously do.

Not saying his upside is off the charts just that it's more than Hills AND he's way less expensive and IMO if our defense had played as well for him as they did for Hill we'd have had our best record under Fish
Beside all that Hill got all the starter reps in camp after Sam got hurt

 

[RamFan503]

I wish I shared your optimism towards Davis, but I have seen the same sorry act for 3 years. I just can't get past the FACT that this is the same guy who was a week away from being back coaching High School football were it not for Bradford's injury.

He has demonstrated the same inconsistent traits for all 3 years of training camp, where he will make a "wow" play, then miss a wide open receiver standing 30 feet away. And when I say miss, I mean throwing the ball at his feet. He is the same guy, who bails on the pocket in "7 0n 7" drills where there is NO PASS RUSH, because he has no idea where the ball needs to go. Seeing that occur on a regular basis once given his "chance" was expected. To ignore the game changing "pick 6's" and the frequency with which they occurred, is ignoring a glaring issue with him. His lack of accuracy, and decision making has to be called into question. His lack of arm strength was apparent in the frequent passes he attempted to make when guys would get behind the secondary and he forced the ball and severely under thew the ball. Interception vs. KC was a prime example of that. Another instance when he tried to get the ball to Givens, and was at least 10 yards under thrown.

To expect that he somehow can find that upside, IMO, is just as ludicrous as you seem to think on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I do think they will try to bring him back to training camp for yet another look see. But I just don't think he has the upside as you obviously do.

I realize you got the chance to watch him in practice more than probably any of us but I saw him play in that Tampa game and it didn't seem that arm strength was really that much of an issue. It seems like he needs to learn how to throw when scrambling to his right. Two of his worst INTs were just awful mechanics/footwork and that is when I think his arm strength comes into being an issue.

In his games though, even though he could have maybe hit receivers a little quicker or climbed the pocket, there rarely was really a pocket, he was playing with really young skill players, and he's flat out inexperienced in having an actual pass rush coming after him.

Obviously there are better QBs in the league that are taller, can get the ball out quicker, have better foot work, etc... But IMO, all you have to do is watch a few like Foles and see that there were #1 QBs out there last year that were worse. I think if you went to the other teams' practices, you'd see more of the same thing you see with Davis.

 

[CoachO]

Not saying his upside is off the charts just that it's more than Hills AND he's way less expensive and IMO if our defense had played as well for him as they did for Hill we'd have had our best record under Fish
Beside all that Hill got all the starter reps in camp after Sam got hurt

Not only did Hill most of the reps in camp, Davis was a distant FOURTH in terms of reps. Now obviously that all changed the minute Bradford went down, but Davis wasn't even a consideration prior to that. And that is what I keep coming back to when I try to see the possible upside.

He came back here in 2013 only because he "knew the system". He came to training camp in 2014 as the one guy not named Bradford to "know the system", and yet, it was a common sight to see him on the far practice field calling out the cadence for the O-line as they hit the blocking sleds. (rather than working on the individual passing drills).

If Hill had not had the quad injury, there is ZERO chance that anyone here would even remember the guys name at this point. Bottom line is simple, they seem to be rolling the dice again with Bradford. They are bound to draft a QB this year, and suffice to say, they won't wait til the 6th round. And they will look for an EXPERIENCED option as the immediate backup. If they can find someone who is an upgrade to Hill, so be it. But IMO, that will NOT be Austin Davis.

 

[CoachO]

I realize you got the chance to watch him in practice more than probably any of us but I saw him play in that Tampa game and it didn't seem that arm strength was really that much of an issue. It seems like he needs to learn how to throw when scrambling to his right. Two of his worst INTs were just awful mechanics/footwork and that is when I think his arm strength comes into being an issue.

In his games though, even though he could have maybe hit receivers a little quicker or climbed the pocket, there rarely was really a pocket, he was playing with really young skill players, and he's flat out inexperienced in having an actual pass rush coming after him.

Obviously there are better QBs in the league that are taller, can get the ball out quicker, have better foot work, etc... But IMO, all you have to do is watch a few like Foles and see that there were #1 QBs out there last year that were worse. I think if you went to the other teams' practices, you'd see more of the same thing you see with Davis.

I wont disagree with anything you said. But, IMO, it sounds like a whole lot of excuses as to why he didn't perform.

He is inexperienced. The o-line was horrible. He played with inexperienced skill players. And yet, somehow Hill playing with the same variables, doesn't get the same consideration. Aside from the horrible decision at the end of the San Diego game, Hill to me, was the much more consistent QB.

But none of that matters at this point. At the end of the day, neither one of them showed they can be "the guy" if the disaster of Bradford going down again occurs. We just seem to disagree with which one is the lesser of two evils.

 

[RamFan503]

I wont disagree with anything you said. But, IMO, it sounds like a whole lot of excuses as to why he didn't perform.

He is inexperienced. The o-line was horrible. He played with inexperienced skill players. And yet, somehow Hill playing with the same variables, doesn't get the same consideration. Aside from the horrible decision at the end of the San Diego game, Hill to me, was the much more consistent QB.

But none of that matters at this point. At the end of the day, neither one of them showed they can be "the guy" if the disaster of Bradford going down again occurs. We just seem to disagree with which one is the lesser of two evils.

Yeah - kinda picking nits at this point - eh? It will be interesting to see who the Rams think is a better option than Hill or Davis because it really appears as if it is going to be neither.

 

[CoachO]

Yeah - kinda picking nits at this point - eh? It will be interesting to see who the Rams think is a better option than Hill or Davis because it really appears as if it is going to be neither.

I will be somewhat surprised if Hill even wants to come back. Davis on the other hand is a restricted FA, so if the RAms do indeed want to bring him back they will have more say in the matter. But Hill is a UFA, and would most likely want to find a more stable situation to end his career.

 

[Thordaddy]

Not only did Hill most of the reps in camp, Davis was a distant FOURTH in terms of reps. Now obviously that all changed the minute Bradford went down, but Davis wasn't even a consideration prior to that. And that is what I keep coming back to when I try to see the possible upside.

He came back here in 2013 only because he "knew the system". He came to training camp in 2014 as the one guy not named Bradford to "know the system", and yet, it was a common sight to see him on the far practice field calling out the cadence for the O-line as they hit the blocking sleds. (rather than working on the individual passing drills).

If Hill had not had the quad injury, there is ZERO chance that anyone here would even remember the guys name at this point. Bottom line is simple, they seem to be rolling the dice again with Bradford. They are bound to draft a QB this year, and suffice to say, they won't wait til the 6th round. And they will look for an EXPERIENCED option as the immediate backup. If they can find someone who is an upgrade to Hill, so be it. But IMO, that will NOT be Austin Davis.

See IMO that quad injury was a product of poor conditioning and he needed the 8 weeks off to get in shape so he would have been hurt in a subsequent game or even half is just as valid as if he hadn't gotten hurt when he did he wouldn't ever.

 

[LesBaker]

I wish I shared your optimism towards Davis, but I have seen the same sorry act for 3 years. I just can't get past the FACT that this is the same guy who was a week away from being back coaching High School football were it not for Bradford's injury.

He has demonstrated the same inconsistent traits for all 3 years of training camp, where he will make a "wow" play, then miss a wide open receiver standing 30 feet away. And when I say miss, I mean throwing the ball at his feet. He is the same guy, who bails on the pocket in "7 0n 7" drills where there is NO PASS RUSH, because he has no idea where the ball needs to go. Seeing that occur on a regular basis once given his "chance" was expected. To ignore the game changing "pick 6's" and the frequency with which they occurred, is ignoring a glaring issue with him. His lack of accuracy, and decision making has to be called into question. His lack of arm strength was apparent in the frequent passes he attempted to make when guys would get behind the secondary and he forced the ball and severely under thew the ball. Interception vs. KC was a prime example of that. Another instance when he tried to get the ball to Givens, and was at least 10 yards under thrown.

To expect that he somehow can find that upside, IMO, is just as ludicrous as you seem to think on the opposite end of the spectrum.

I do think they will try to bring him back to training camp for yet another look see. But I just don't think he has the upside as you obviously do.

Against good defenses he posted a completion percentage of 63.4 percent.

I saw little of what you are saying happened in drills during actual live action. He isn't perfect, and he makes mistakes, but IMO he's the best QB on the roster.

IMO he deserves, and has earned, a shot at it. If he ends up as the backup, or the 3rd string guy so be it. But during real games, and those were his first time playing with starters rather than 3rd stringers or practice squad guys, he acquitted himself well against several top defenses.

I get that you don't like him, but to say it's ludicrous that he has little to no upside is..........ludicrous.

And IMO a lot of what we see from a player in camp and drills is meaningless. Lots of QB's in camp look amazing, the ball never touches the ground. But in live fire they are average or below. I'd rather base opinions and discussion on game situations rather than 7 on 7 drills in July.

 

[CoachO]

Against good defenses he posted a completion percentage of 63.4 percent.

I saw little of what you are saying happened in drills during actual live action. He isn't perfect, and he makes mistakes, but IMO he's the best QB on the roster.

IMO he deserves, and has earned, a shot at it. If he ends up as the backup, or the 3rd string guy so be it. But during real games, and those were his first time playing with starters rather than 3rd stringers or practice squad guys, he acquitted himself well against several top defenses.

I get that you don't like him, but to say it's ludicrous that he has little to no upside is..........ludicrous.

And IMO a lot of what we see from a player in camp and drills is meaningless. Lots of QB's in camp look amazing, the ball never touches the ground. But in live fire they are average or below. I'd rather base opinions and discussion on game situations rather than 7 on 7 drills in July.

If I was only going on what I saw from ONE year, I would agree with you. This is the same thing for THREE years now. And you can say you know I don't like him, but we all know your feelings about Bradford too. So when you try to sell Davis being the "best QB on the roster" you lose all credibility.

We can just agree to disagree on the guy. I don't think he will ever amount to being more than what we saw. And that for me, scares the begeebies out of me. He played in 8 games and gave up 8 defensive scores against. You can't soft sell that.

I don't buy the "he played against the better defenses" argument either. He played against some so so defenses too, and still turned the ball over. This is Thad Lewis all over again.

 

[CoachO]

See IMO that quad injury was a product of poor conditioning and he needed the 8 weeks off to get in shape so he would have been hurt in a subsequent game or even half is just as valid as if he hadn't gotten hurt when he did he wouldn't ever.

How can you possibly know what kind of shape Hill was in? Sorry, not buying into that theory.

 

[LesBaker]

If I was only going on what I saw from ONE year, I would agree with you. This is the same thing for THREE years now. And you can say you know I don't like him, but we all know your feelings about Bradford too. So when you try to sell Davis being the "best QB on the roster" you lose all credibility.

We can just agree to disagree on the guy. I don't think he will ever amount to being more than what we saw. And that for me, scares the begeebies out of me. He played in 8 games and gave up 8 defensive scores against. You can't soft sell that.

I don't buy the "he played against the better defenses" argument either. He played against some so so defenses too, and still turned the ball over. This is Thad Lewis all over again.

He is the best QB on the roster according to his performance overall IMO. I'd suggest you go look at the game logs and see how he did against the defenses he play. If he was a first round draft pick the media would be saying he has a good future.

Don't tell me I lose credibility when you are basing your opinion on 7 on 7 drills rather than games where he played good football. And he was essentially a rookie having never played other than with camp bodies in pre season and practice squad players.

We don't agree, but don't tell me I lose credibility when I offer an opinion that's different than yours. Go flick that somewhere else.

Do you think Hill or Bradford will ever be anything else other than what we have seen? Does that scare the begeebies out of you too?

Like I said go flick that somewhere else.

 

[CoachO]

He is the best QB on the roster according to his performance overall IMO. I'd suggest you go look at the game logs and see how he did against the defenses he play. If he was a first round draft pick the media would be saying he has a good future.

Don't tell me I lose credibility when you are basing your opinion on 7 on 7 drills rather than games where he played good football. And he was essentially a rookie having never played other than with camp bodies in pre season and practice squad players.

We don't agree, but don't tell me I lose credibility when I offer an opinion that's different than yours. Go flick that somewhere else.

Do you think Hill or Bradford will ever be anything else other than what we have seen? Does that scare the begeebies out of you too?

Like I said go flick that somewhere else.

Bradford on his worst day is about 100 times better than Davis will ever hope to be. So, in that vane, is why I say you have lost credibility. If you truly believe he played "good football" in those 8 games, then we have different definitions of what that is. being responsible for the number of defensive TD against that he was in those 8 games alone speaks volumes.

You can mock me for my 7 on 7 reference, and take that as literal, but trust me, its only ONE example I have witnessed over the past 3 years. There are plenty of instances where he has proved to be lacking as an NFL caliber QB. But yet, you chose to use EIGHT games, where he was less than stellar. But because he makes a play on occasion, which if you read what I have said about him, is consistent with his INCONSISTENT tendencies.

So, because he was essentially a rookie, even after being in THREE training camps, you think somehow he should be given a pass. Ever ask yourself why he has only been able to "play with camp bodies in pre season and practice squad players" after 3 years? Could it be because he just isn't as good as you seem to think he is? Or might it be because his last name isn't Bradford, so he must be better than every other guy on the roster?

 

[Boffo97]

Hill is Hill. Davis has some promise, but he's nowhere near Bradford. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if Davis isn't on a roster come opening day.

All that's held Bradford back is lack of supporting cast (which WR has been addressed and may be addressed further and OL which will be addressed) and his own health. If he can stay healthy, he'll play rings around Davis.

 

[LesBaker]

Bradford on his worst day is about 100 times better than Davis will ever hope to be. So, in that vane, is why I say you have lost credibility.

OK talk about losing credibility.........lol.

You're the most difficult person to have a discussion with on this topic on the board. I think you lack objectivity, but oh well, c'est la vie.

 

[CoachO]

OK talk about losing credibility.........lol.

You're the most difficult person to have a discussion with on this topic on the board. I think you lack objectivity, but oh well, c'est la vie.

the most difficult? seriously? I can be as objective as anyone when it comes to this or any topic. But, come on, your position on the QB situation is well documented, so to say I am not objective is kinda a pot/kettle scenario . Bradford is light years better than Davis will ever be. And it doesn't take being objective to think that. You are most definitely in the minority at least on this site, when it comes to your opinion of Bradford.

As far as Davis is concerned, we will just agree to disagree. I have firsthand reasons for why I don't see him getting better. You have your reasons for why you think he may.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Bradford on his worst day is about 100 times better than Davis will ever hope to be

Sorry Les, but Coach does have a point there, tho I would counter "100 times better" is obviously an slight exaggeration (more like 4 times better)

You may be possibly overlooking that this was the year (2014) when the Rams Offense supplied decent talent along with a running threat, balanced talent that Sam never came close to having previously, "Shirley" you can agree on that.

Saying Austin Davis is "the best QB on the roster" (in any capacity) on a roster that includes Sam Bradford I gotta say is a little provocative to say the least.

 

[Amitar]

http://www.nfl.com/teams/st.louisrams/statistics?team=STL
PlayerAttCompYdsComp %Yds/AttTDTD %INTINT %LongSckSack/LostRating
Austin Davis284180200163.47.0124.293.2592917985
.1Shaun Hill229145165763.37.283.573.1631811683.9Johnny Hekker2237100.018.500.000.01900118.8

Both were 3-5
considering two of HILLS 'WINS' were shutouts and two of Davis' were the Broncos and Seahawks it's hard for me to imagine anyone doesn't KNOW that our defense failed Davis miserably and came through for Hill in much greater measure.

IF and I know it's a big if ,but IF our defense had played as well for Davis and he'd had above average o-line play ,Hill would never have gotten back on the field.
Is Davis the answer? ardunno, but money and productivity equal amount of experience Davis is a better bet now.

Since you don't KNOW Davis fell apart big time not rookie time once teams adjusted to him.