Washington who?

[jrry32]

We by a freak chance of nature it is! Maybe we can come to a settlement? lol


See this is where I'm divided on topics like this. I can see why either flag or name could be taken offensive but on the other hand ANYTHING could be taken offensive due to BS Political Correctness such as the Saints name oppressing Atheists, Agnostics, Muslims, and Jews, etc.

Redskin's is a name even used by Natives back in the day which is a fact. Were they calling themselves the African American version of N***er back then? No.
The confederate flag was the flag and symbol of separation from the rest of the US and believed a variety of things (one being slavery) that caused the separation.
Great Britain would land/take over a country/demographic region and use it to drain the resources to fund their empire and some could say it was a form of slavery, does anyone say the Union Jack is offensive and needs to be changed or removed? No.

Everything can or does have a bad history (Catholic Church) but does that mean people should go crazy with PC because of that? Because if that's the case women and femimales need to start boycotting the Catholic churches for the Witch torturing/killings of 100's if not possibly millions of women.

I'm not sure there should be a divide. We're not talking about the word "saints" here. This is a bit of a slippery slope fallacy. "Saint" is a positive term. So it's really not comparable here. It's not like you insult a Jewish person by calling them a saint.

What redskin used to mean isn't what it means now. When even the dictionary has "offensive" and "disparaging" written in with the word, you can't really argue that it's not.

Black people use the n-word now. Doesn't mean someone should name a team that.

So Native Americans using redskin in the past just doesn't defeat the fact that the word's context has evolved.(in a negative way)

And the argument always pops up, "if this offends you, why aren't you demanding this separate thing be changed or this other thing..." and that's just a red herring. You're digressing from the actual point. If your best argument is, "well, yes, it's bad but there are plenty of other bad things in the world" then I hope you're willing to reconsider whether you should be defending the thing you are.

There are a lot of injustices and bad things in this world. We aren't going to change them all. But that doesn't mean we should give up on changing anything.

I'm not a Native American so, ultimately, this won't affect my life one way or the other. But I understand where they're coming from and I don't think their viewpoint should be dismissed as just being "sensitive" or "whiny" or "PC."

Doesn't offend people, does offend people, doesn't even register with people. Those are basically the demographics. The bottom line, now, is that Snyder is going to HAVE to change the name due to sudden public outrage. Some of that outrage (and I don't care what anyone thinks) is completely and utterly fueled by sheep. Sheep who simply have to come down on a side even if they don't believe in it 100%. Sheep who meandered around in their lives not caring about this particular issue ... at all. But now that it's out in the open, and there are sides to take, and they can use their anonymous voice on the internet, they're suddenly the most ardent supporters of the cause. Why? Because they can. And if this issue fell off the public radar, for whatever reason, those same people would simply let it die. They wouldn't further the agenda, they wouldn't write their Congressman, they wouldn't protest, they wouldn't boycott, they'd simply forget about it. Those people are useless.

If you're legitimately offended, always were, and always will be, then you have a say.
If you're not offended, never will be, and never were, then you have a say.
If you suddenly want to jump into the ring, oppose it, but you never even cared before, then go freak yourself.

Snyder doesn't have to do anything. He just won't get federal trademark protection if he doesn't. But that's actually how the law is supposed to work. I don't see anything wrong with it.

By the way, I disagree with you that those people are useless. They're actually quite useful. Because there can only be so many "true activists" out there for each issue. You need all the bandwagoners if you're going to get the support needed to change things for the better.

 

[Legatron4]

Mack, I appreciate you putting this out there. @Legatron4, this is what I mean. From all our discussions of football, you seem like a thoughtful, articulate, and intelligent guy. I just think you're missing the boat on this one.

I think the problem here is similar to the problem of ethnocentrism. You're judging whether something should be offensive through your perspective of the world. But you have to keep in mind that your perspective isn't the only perspective and you haven't had the same experiences of many others out there. Your perspective, like my perspective, and like everyone else's, is limited. That's why I just can't agree with your rant. It puts you in the position of being the moral authority on what should and shouldn't be offensive. And that's just not something you can be. That's not something any one person can be. Because what's not offensive to you could be offensive to someone else. And they could have very good reasons why that thing is offensive. Reasons that you might agree with if you stopped and gave them a chance to explain.

The government flying the Confederate flag and the Redskins name may or may not be offensive to you.(I saw similar rants to yours on the Confederate flag issue...although, I have no idea what your stance is on that) But how can you tell a black Southerner or a Native American that it shouldn't be offensive to them? What makes you an authority on what should and shouldn't offend them?

I must disagree with you, Legatron, I'm proud that our country is standing up and being honest about things that are wrong rather than pretending they are okay. I'm glad people are being honest about intolerance and trying to stamp it out. It's how you bring about progress. That should be lauded. Now, people can go overboard but that's a risk with anything. You might think they're going overboard here but you have to consider the fact that "redskin" is defined as a PEJORATIVE by the dictionary.

People can rant about political correctness all the want but I don't think it's simply political correctness not celebrate hateful, offensive words. It's just basic human decency. And this is coming from a person that was on the other side of this issue until recently.(I didn't think the Redskins should change their team name)

I see where you're coming from Jerry. And I think this all comes back to prospective. What you see as coming off as "annoying", I see as standing up for what I'm trying to protect. America used to be all about being tough and honest. My grandpa used to tell me stories about him getting in fights everyday and being the biggest badass around. Nobody messed with him. Now all I see is a bunch of Nancys running around telling on everybody. I don't want my future child to grow up a pussy, because that's all that anyone is now. It's not just about the Redskins(which when I hear that word, I think football, not racist name for Indians), it's about everything.

To me, this isn't about politics. It's about wanting to live in a world that doesn't have to worry about racism in the first place. We're all the same fucking species. I just don't understand why people think a word that comes out of someone's mouth will change their life.

 

[-X-]

By the way, I disagree with you that those people are useless. They're actually quite useful. Because there can only be so many "true activists" out there for each issue. You need all the bandwagoners if you're going to get the support needed to change things for the better.

Could not disagree more. And "for the better" is subjective. There is nothing better about catering to the minority by rallying the support of weak minded individuals who had no opinion, but suddenly support what they're told because someone tweaked their delicate sensibilities. That's a dangerous game that has serious ramifications and history bears that out. I'd also prefer to live in a Country where real issues are addressed and not these ancillary problems that are conjured up out of thin air and shoved into the public conscious for the "betterment" of all involved. Take the Confederate flag, for example. Think removing that from a Government building will solve anything? Not a chance. Meanwhile, we've rallied support to attack an object while leaving the real issue of our severe mental health crisis on the back burner. First it was music, then movies, then video games, now flags and team names. Take them all away and there are still *real* problems to address.

And I said Snyder will have to change the name because all of this new opposition to the name will only continue to gain momentum until the sheep are satisfied that they've won the war and emerged triumphant. They'll just get louder, protest harder, boycott, write, maybe even get violent, until he buckles under the pressure to protect his financial bottom line. Then they'll move onto something even more offensive and harmful. Like gluten or Eminem.

 

[bluecoconuts]

I see where you're coming from Jerry. And I think this all comes back to prospective. What you see as coming off as "annoying", I see as standing up for what I'm trying to protect. America used to be all about being tough and honest. My grandpa used to tell me stories about him getting in fights everyday and being the biggest badass around. Nobody messed with him. Now all I see is a bunch of Nancys running around telling on everybody. I don't want my future child to grow up a pussy, because that's all that anyone is now. It's not just about the Redskins(which when I hear that word, I think football, not racist name for Indians), it's about everything.

To me, this isn't about politics. It's about wanting to live in a world that doesn't have to worry about racism in the first place. We're all the same freaking species. I just don't understand why people think a word that comes out of someone's mouth will change their life.

Political correctness wont make anyone a pussy, you can be a tough person that can stand up for what you believe in without being an asshole. Everyone has different experiences, and can be tough in different ways. I got in exactly zero fights growing up, and I can feel empathy for people who may not like a certain word or phrase, that doesn't make me a pussy and it didn't make me unable to stand up for what I believe in. My ability to inflict overwhelming violence on someone who deserves it has never been remotely effected by it not being socially acceptable to say a a word, or fly a flag or anything like that.

 

[HometownBoy]

Way I see it though, it's more PC for them to throw a temper tantrum at people saying swears. Like when Dahl got hit hard with a penalty for saying "That's not fucking holding."

Like a slur is a slur, regardless it's a term that negatively refers to somebody's race. That can't be argued and I can see why people would be offended by that.

But swears are literally only bad because we say so, they have no history of violence or superiority to them, they're just mean words because we continue to regard them as such. Hell, Slappy lollipop fart could be a swear if I wanted it to be.

I feel like it's much more PC to try to avoid using words that are only negative because we decide for them to be.

 

[-X-]

Slappy lollipop fart could be a swear if I wanted it to be.

I'm okay with that, provided you don't say Tootsie Pop.
You do it, and we're goin' to the mats.

 

[jrry32]

Could not disagree more. And "for the better" is subjective. There is nothing better about catering to the minority by rallying the support of weak minded individuals who had no opinion, but suddenly support what they're told because someone tweaked their delicate sensibilities. That's a dangerous game that has serious ramifications and history bears that out. I'd also prefer to live in a Country where real issues are addressed and not these ancillary problems that are conjured up out of thin air and shoved into the public conscious for the "betterment" of all involved. Take the Confederate flag, for example. Think removing that from a Government building will solve anything? Not a chance. Meanwhile, we've rallied support to attack an object while leaving the real issue of our severe mental health crisis on the back burner. First it was music, then movies, then video games, now flags and team names. Take them all away and there are still *real* problems to address.

Yes, I do. I think it'll make people actually think about racism. People that put it as far from their mind as possible. In fact, I've already seen it serve that purpose. I think it'll make people feel better. I think it'll make people feel more welcome. And I think it'll tell a small percentage of the population that times are changing. That we're no longer willing, as a society, to accept racism or the values behind it.

So yes, those people have a purpose. Yes, they can be used for the wrong purpose. But they can also be used for the right purpose.

And I wouldn't assume those people are weak-minded because they had no opinion. Most people are just uninformed or apathetic about something until it receives attention because they believe they can't change anything by themselves.

I'd prefer to live in a country where a great many things are different. But that's simply not the country I'm living in...right now. I'll take small steps.

BTW, I completely agree with you on the severe mental health crisis. Deinstitutionalization and a lack of funding have majorly exasperated the issue. My current job (for the summer) actually revolves around that topic. I'm hoping to see changes in that as well especially in Florida where mental health services are grossly underfunded.(my apologies if I'm getting too political)

And I said Snyder will have to change the name because all of this new opposition to the name will only continue to gain momentum until the sheep are satisfied that they've won the war and emerged triumphant. They'll just get louder, protest harder, boycott, write, maybe even get violent, until he buckles under the pressure to protect his financial bottom line. Then they'll move onto something even more offensive and harmful. Like gluten or Eminem.

Snyder will be able to make his choice.

But I'll fight for gluten and Eminem.

I see where you're coming from Jerry. And I think this all comes back to prospective. What you see as coming off as "annoying", I see as standing up for what I'm trying to protect. America used to be all about being tough and honest. My grandpa used to tell me stories about him getting in fights everyday and being the biggest badass around. Nobody messed with him. Now all I see is a bunch of Nancys running around telling on everybody. I don't want my future child to grow up a pussy, because that's all that anyone is now. It's not just about the Redskins(which when I hear that word, I think football, not racist name for Indians), it's about everything.

To me, this isn't about politics. It's about wanting to live in a world that doesn't have to worry about racism in the first place. We're all the same freaking species. I just don't understand why people think a word that comes out of someone's mouth will change their life.

Is that really what we should be aiming for, though? I don't want to see people fighting. I don't think people should be laying hands on each other with the intent to injure. That's something I'd steer my kids away from (when I have them).

But...we just have different perspectives on this issue. I'm all for honesty. I'm all for toughness. But I'm not for aggressiveness and violence.

I think most of us want to live in a world without racism. But how can we achieve that if we pretend it doesn't exist? How can we achieve that if we do nothing about it? Ignoring racists doesn't change anything. You let them believe their behavior is acceptable when you don't confront them.

 

[jrry32]

Way I see it though, it's more PC for them to throw a temper tantrum at people saying swears. Like when Dahl got hit hard with a penalty for saying "That's not freaking holding."

Like a slur is a slur, regardless it's a term that negatively refers to somebody's race. That can't be argued and I can see why people would be offended by that.

But swears are literally only bad because we say so, they have no history of violence or superiority to them, they're just mean words because we continue to regard them as such. Hell, Slappy lollipop fart could be a swear if I wanted it to be.

I feel like it's much more PC to try to avoid using words that are only negative because we decide for them to be.

Oh yea, they can curse as much as they want. I don't give a shit about that.

For example, I read some headline about parents being upset because the minion toys sound like they're saying a curse word...yea, I'm in total agreement that those people are overreacting. If you don't like the toy in your happy meal, take it away from your kid. Stop bitching about it. It's not like the minion called your child a fat assclown or anything.

 

[-X-]

Yes, I do. I think it'll make people actually think about racism.

No it won't. It'll make people take a side. You're overestimating the amount of truly introspective people out there, and they certainly aren't the ones participating in the debate or climbing the flagpoles. Of course that's JMO, but I interact with a shit ton of people on a daily basis, so...

BTW, I work in Charleston now.

But I'll fight for gluten and Eminem.

Atta boy.

 

[Legatron4]

Political correctness wont make anyone a pussy, you can be a tough person that can stand up for what you believe in without being an arsehole. Everyone has different experiences, and can be tough in different ways. I got in exactly zero fights growing up, and I can feel empathy for people who may not like a certain word or phrase, that doesn't make me a pussy and it didn't make me unable to stand up for what I believe in. My ability to inflict overwhelming violence on someone who deserves it has never been remotely effected by it not being socially acceptable to say a a word, or fly a flag or anything like that.

I think you're missing my point. I said its not about politics. Because that's flawed no matter what. If we keep going down this path it's just going to get worse. Soon you'll see people getting arrested because Johnny called Sally a poopyhead. I shouldn't have to be so careful when I have a conversation with someone so I don't offend them. I'm tired of tiptoeing around with words. It's unfair. It doesn't mean I'm going to be an asshole, but if I accidentally say "awe man that's gay", I'm gunna be fuckin crucified for it. Even though whatever I was talking about was stupid or doesn't make sense. Not homosexual.

 

[HometownBoy]

Oh yea, they can curse as much as they want. I don't give a crap about that.

For example, I read some headline about parents being upset because the minion toys sound like they're saying a curse word...yea, I'm in total agreement that those people are overreacting. If you don't like the toy in your happy meal, take it away from your kid. Stop bitching about it. It's not like the minion called your child a fat assclown or anything.

Yeah I agree.

It's like, your kid probably doesn't even know what that word means and you don't even have to explain it to them. Swears are literally only powered by us randomly deciding to loathe them and are very easily meaningless.

It's no more obvious than looking between different languages. Fuck and other swears mean absolutely nothing to people who don't speak our language, and for some never will. They could hear me say it casually in conversation and they wouldn't be any the wiser.

So what's so special and necessary for us to hide about a word more than half the world wouldn't even know?

 

[UnknownREknown]

I've posted it once I will post it again, it will be the Washington Bravehearts when it's all said and done!

Yes, I had heard somewhere that Snyder went as far as getting the name copywritten long ago, even while arguing to keep the 'Redskins' name. Not sure how accurate that is...

 

[jrry32]

I think you're missing my point. I said its not about politics. Because that's flawed no matter what. If we keep going down this path it's just going to get worse. Soon you'll see people getting arrested because Johnny called Sally a poopyhead. I shouldn't have to be so careful when I have a conversation with someone so I don't offend them. I'm tired of tiptoeing around with words. It's unfair. It doesn't mean I'm going to be an icehole, but if I accidentally say "awe man that's gay", I'm gunna be freakin crucified for it. Even though whatever I was talking about was stupid or doesn't make sense. Not homosexual.

I don't think so. I doubt most people you talk to would care. There will always be hyper-sensitive people. But most people aren't going to get offended unless you say something really bad or use a word/phrase maliciously.

Now, if you were to say, "Dude, you're acting like a f*gg*t" or something along those lines. People might get angry.

No it won't. It'll make people take a side. You're overestimating the amount of truly introspective people out there, and they certainly aren't the ones participating in the debate or climbing the flagpoles. Of course that's JMO, but I interact with a crap ton of people on a daily basis, so...

BTW, I work in Charleston now.


Atta boy.

I still gotta disagree, X. It's only social media but I've actually seen people engaging in discussion. People willing to hear other people about. People willing to reconsider their prior thoughts and actions. It's not going to change everyone. But even if just a few people change. Even if just a few people are willing to reconsider their worldview, it's been a success imo.

Yeah I agree.

It's like, your kid probably doesn't even know what that word means and you don't even have to explain it to them. Swears are literally only powered by us randomly deciding to loathe them and are very easily meaningless.

It's no more obvious than looking between different languages. freak and other swears mean absolutely nothing to people who don't speak our language, and for some never will. They could hear me say it casually in conversation and they wouldn't be any the wiser.

So what's so special and necessary for us to hide about a word more than half the world wouldn't even know?

Nothing. I consider swear words to be no big deal. Some feel differently but they are nothing to me. Just way to occasionally emphasize your point.

 

[Legatron4]

Yes, I do. I think it'll make people actually think about racism. People that put it as far from their mind as possible. In fact, I've already seen it serve that purpose. I think it'll make people feel better. I think it'll make people feel more welcome. And I think it'll tell a small percentage of the population that times are changing. That we're no longer willing, as a society, to accept racism or the values behind it.

So yes, those people have a purpose. Yes, they can be used for the wrong purpose. But they can also be used for the right purpose.

And I wouldn't assume those people are weak-minded because they had no opinion. Most people are just uninformed or apathetic about something until it receives attention because they believe they can't change anything by themselves.

I'd prefer to live in a country where a great many things are different. But that's simply not the country I'm living in...right now. I'll take small steps.

BTW, I completely agree with you on the severe mental health crisis. Deinstitutionalization and a lack of funding have majorly exasperated the issue. My current job (for the summer) actually revolves around that topic. I'm hoping to see changes in that as well especially in Florida where mental health services are grossly underfunded.(my apologies if I'm getting too political)



Snyder will be able to make his choice.

But I'll fight for gluten and Eminem.



Is that really what we should be aiming for, though? I don't want to see people fighting. I don't think people should be laying hands on each other with the intent to injure. That's something I'd steer my kids away from (when I have them).

But...we just have different perspectives on this issue. I'm all for honesty. I'm all for toughness. But I'm not for aggressiveness and violence.

I think most of us want to live in a world without racism. But how can we achieve that if we pretend it doesn't exist? How can we achieve that if we do nothing about it? Ignoring racists doesn't change anything. You let them believe their behavior is acceptable when you don't confront them.

Again, maybe I should have worded it differently. I'm not saying everyone should be punching each other in the face. I was trying to use it as a metaphor to compare today's society. People used to go to work, do whatever they gotta do and go home. Now everything has rules and guidelines on how to speak, how to look, how to act. Everything is micromanaged and it's just going to get worse unless we stop worrying about silly words that offend 15 people in the world.

Racism is an issue, I get that. And doing nothing about it won't help. But going to such a length as getting rid of a football teams name is like putting a whole classroom in detention because one kid threw a spitball.

These things need to be taught a young age. More schools need to include classes on racism and the problems that arise from it. But too many parents would think its offensive and believe their child is being singled out. We are a very intelligent species capable of anything we set our mind too. There HAS to be better ways of dealing with all this then just straight up banning words.

 

[OC--LeftCoast]

Anyone thinking there are not political lines drawn here...well

To those I would advise do more research...this whole sit-chee-ation really makes me want to puke. (as the wussafication of America continues)

I agree with the OP 100%

Carry On

 

[-X-]

I still gotta disagree, X. It's only social media but I've actually seen people engaging in discussion. People willing to hear other people about. People willing to reconsider their prior thoughts and actions. It's not going to change everyone. But even if just a few people change. Even if just a few people are willing to reconsider their worldview, it's been a success imo.

Oh I'm sure there's some of that going on too, and I agree it's a good thing. But I seriously doubt it's long-lasting. Once the euphoria of winning this cause is over, I suspect most of those people will fall back into their comfort zones and shelve the facades. In other words, they didn't care before, care now, and will go back to not caring in short order. Maybe I'm a cynic, but that's the result of seeing these temporary distractions come and go while the real problems remain. I mean, the very definition of a catalyst is

a substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any permanent chemical change.

Just change substance with 'person' and eliminate 'chemical' entirely.

 

[jrry32]

Again, maybe I should have worded it differently. I'm not saying everyone should be punching each other in the face. I was trying to use it as a metaphor to compare today's society. People used to go to work, do whatever they gotta do and go home. Now everything has rules and guidelines on how to speak, how to look, how to act. Everything is micromanaged and it's just going to get worse unless we stop worrying about silly words that offend 15 people in the world.

Racism is an issue, I get that. And doing nothing about it won't help. But going to such a length as getting rid of a football teams name is like putting a whole classroom in detention because one kid threw a spitball.

These things need to be taught a young age. More schools need to include classes on racism and the problems that arise from it. But too many parents would think its offensive and believe their child is being singled out. We are a very intelligent species capable of anything we set our mind too. There HAS to be better ways of dealing with all this then just straight up banning words.

Is that really a great length? It's just football.(and this is coming from a guy that eats, sleeps, and drinks football) The team name is a pejorative. Is it really such a great length to ask them to change it? The Oilers became the Titans. The Braves became the Redskins. The Texans became the Chiefs. The Patriots became the Cheatriots. Is it really that big of a deal?

The Chiefs aren't being attacked. Because their name isn't a pejorative. Same with the Seminoles. Same with the Braves. I just don't get what the big deal is here. I mean, I get what the big deal is for Snyder. But I'm just not sure why you're choosing this issue to defend so passionately. I just don't see the slippery slope here.

This issue doesn't affect me but I can totally understand why Native Americans would find it offensive and want it changed. I also totally understand why the court ruled the way it did (because that's the law). Ultimately, the choice lies with the Redskins. But they don't get to use a term that is a pejorative in their team name and receive federal trademark protection. That's the law. So that's the issue they're going to have to deal with.

It's not like anyone gets to make the decision for them. They can choose to keep the team name. They just have to deal with the consequences from that decision.

But yes, I totally agree that it needs to start with education and kids. People aren't born with hatred. It's learned.

People used to go to work, do whatever they gotta do and go home. Now everything has rules and guidelines on how to speak, how to look, how to act. Everything is micromanaged and it's just going to get worse unless we stop worrying about silly words that offend 15 people in the world.

Not trying to be condescending but I think you have this one backwards. Look at how people use to dress and then look at how they dress now. Look at how people used to talk and then listen to how people talk now. Go look at how big a part of society etiquette used to be and then consider the role it plays now. If anything, societal rules and micromanagement were a lot more prevalent in the 50s and before that than they are now.

There will always be rules. There will always be a manner in which society expects us to act. Some people will rebel but most will conform. Those rules have changed over time but I don't see them getting stricter. Just changing in how they're applied.

 

[jrry32]

Oh I'm sure there's some of that going on too, and I agree it's a good thing. But I seriously doubt it's long-lasting. Once the euphoria of winning this cause is over, I suspect most of those people will fall back into their comfort zones and shelve the facades. In other words, they didn't care before, care now, and will go back to not caring in short order. Maybe I'm a cynic, but that's the result of seeing these temporary distractions come and go while the real problems remain. I mean, the very definition of a catalyst is

a substance that increases the rate of a chemical reaction without itself undergoing any permanent chemical change.

Just change substance with 'person' and eliminate 'chemical' entirely.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm going to hope for the best.

 

[VegasRam]

Anyone remember Barbaro.
Seemed like the entire nation was in mourning. :jerkoff:
Totally fueled by the media. Funny that.

And then my esteemed Senator, who's so far gone he can't get on a treadmill without putting his eye out, suggests UNLV should rethink their mascot in light of South Carolina removing the Confederate flag from their Capitol.

You can't make this stuff up. We are so fucked. alm:

 

[…..]

I havent had time to process the Washington issue yet. I'm still trying to undertstand what happened to the Confederate flag.

Being a California Native, I never saw the Confederate Flag as offensive or a symbol of slavery. I always saw it as a symbol of the South or a symbol of Rebels. So why everyone is in a panic over this symbol is confusing to me.

What the hell is happening to our Country? I'm sleeping through most of it lol