Tony Dungy: I wouldn’t have taken Michael Sam

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blue4

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We took two corners and two safeties. All before Sam was taken. Then we signed the top UDFA corner. Was that not enough?

And we knew we were getting the corner before the end of the draft? Also, my first post on this subject included OL. We can also talk about the lack of depth at LB. The only position where all our questions are answered is DE. So to my mind, we basically blew a chance, albeit a long one, of finding someone who can fill a hole. It really has nothing to do with Sam at all. I also mentioned signing him UDFA. You don't agree we had a good shot at him? We could have had him and drafted someone else. Also, and please don't interpret this as a criticism of Sam, but do you think that we'd have anyone talking about us at the start of training camp if the Sam pick hadn't primed the media pump? He raised our profile. Which is why I wonder if this was more a savvy media pick.

I also hope that I'm wrong and he earns a spot.
 

DCH

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And we knew we were getting the corner before the end of the draft? Also, my first post on this subject included OL. We can also talk about the lack of depth at LB. The only position where all our questions are answered is DE. So to my mind, we basically blew a chance, albeit a long one, of finding someone who can fill a hole. It really has nothing to do with Sam at all. I also mentioned signing him UDFA. You don't agree we had a good shot at him? We could have had him and drafted someone else. Also, and please don't interpret this as a criticism of Sam, but do you think that we'd have anyone talking about us at the start of training camp if the Sam pick hadn't primed the media pump? He raised our profile. Which is why I wonder if this was more a savvy media pick.

I also hope that I'm wrong and he earns a spot.
We could have had a shot at him as an UDFA, but apparently they valued him higher than Westbrooks or Roberson. Any 7th rounder one could argue "could have been signed as a FA," but teams pick which ones they are least interested in risking losing. They could have probably signed Van Dyk or Rhaney as UDFAs, but they liked them as players and spent 7ths on them.

They addressed the secondary with four picks. They spent the #2 overall pick on OL. They picked another lineman 23 spots before Sam and yet a third the very next pick.

Seriously, I'm not sure why you are going down this. Seven picks combined to the two groups you think drafting Sam hurt - the OL and secondary - and an eighth who was (media) 3rd-round prospect signed after the draft.

Regarding the "media pump," the vast majority of Rams coverage I've seen - aside from a few days directly following the draft - has been about a young team with talent on the verge of being a serious playoff contender. Dungy's comments on Sam made a bit of news yesterday, but most Sam-related news has been footnotes in overall team reports.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds almost like you want to find some logical way to justify disliking the Sam pick. At least with the "we should have taken a secondary/OL instead and gotten him UDFA" part.

Edit to add: I don't disagree with you on LB depth. Missed that in my first read of your post. I guess the staff likes Bates, Steward, Armstrong and Hill or Wilson as the backups. Again though, the guys they brought in were UDFAs, so I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter if they grabbed Sam in the 7th and them as FAs or vise versa. I would have liked Yawin Smallwood, but such a minor thing.
 
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DCH

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No the principle is exponentially different, every team has scads of black players , not scads of gay players , a black coach made sense on many levels ,FEAR of hiring a black coach is a level of unreasonable trepidation far and away more potentially bigoted than throwing one openly gay player into a cauldron of testosterone.
Race is NOT an instinct ,like it or not there are instinctive problems some heterosexual men will have to gay men,they need to be suppresed but not voluntary ,toatl difference like it or not there is no logical basis why anyone would want an openly gay player if they didn't have one, but a black coach is going to have a connection to a black athlete through common cultural commonalities. Conflating those two situations is erroneous IMO.
There's racists in locker rooms, too, and some would argue that fear/dislike of different races is an ingrained, instinctive problem that has to be suppressed. At this point in time, the biggest differences are that there are more opportunities in the average person's life to meet folks of different races (thus learning that people are individuals, not simply homogenous representatives of a particular group) and that society has yet to make it unacceptable to hate/fear gays, as it has with racial minorities.

Also, keep in mind that there are stories of guys in NFL locker rooms being gay - not out, but their teammates knew - and the team being incredibly supportive and protective. Plus look at how the Tigers locker room rallied around Sam... not just supporting him, but following him as one of their most respected leaders.
 

Thordaddy

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There's racists in locker rooms, too, and some would argue that fear/dislike of different races is an ingrained, instinctive problem that has to be suppressed. At this point in time, the biggest differences are that there are more opportunities in the average person's life to meet folks of different races (thus learning that people are individuals, not simply homogenous representatives of a particular group) and that society has yet to make it unacceptable to hate/fear gays, as it has with racial minorities.

Also, keep in mind that there are stories of guys in NFL locker rooms being gay - not out, but their teammates knew - and the team being incredibly supportive and protective. Plus look at how the Tigers locker room rallied around Sam... not just supporting him, but following him as one of their most respected leaders.
I would argue that anyone who says racism is anything but learned is full of it,whereas sexual orientation is not (IOW is instinct )and along with orientation certain other aversions are natural.
Acting hostile about those aversions is the learned response as is suppressing the aversion.
 

DCH

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I would argue that anyone who says racism is anything but learned is full of it,whereas sexual orientation is not (IOW is instinct )and along with orientation certain other aversions are natural.
Acting hostile about those aversions is the learned response as is suppressing the aversion.
You can argue that, but humanity has at least a certain measure of innate, ingrained nature to distrust those who are "different" than oneself.

“This division has two complementary evolutionary advantages: On the one hand, defining the in-group creates cohesion among its members, cooperation and the possibility of achieving things as a group: finding food, staking out living space, and so on. At the same time, defining the out-group leads me to be alert and cautious toward its members who are competing with me for resources and may also threaten me.”
http://www.haaretz.com/weekend/magazine/.premium-1.528187

It requires us to evolve as a species and individually to overcome the evolutionary processes that cause us to fear and distrust those different from us. I believe the distrust to be fairly innate, and the ability to overcome said distrust stems from spending time realizing, as I said above, that people are individuals, and their belonging to a demographic group doesn't define who they are.
 

blue4

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We could have had a shot at him as an UDFA, but apparently they valued him higher than Westbrooks or Roberson. Any 7th rounder one could argue "could have been signed as a FA," but teams pick which ones they are least interested in risking losing. They could have probably signed Van Dyk or Rhaney as UDFAs, but they liked them as players and spent 7ths on them.

They addressed the secondary with four picks. They spent the #2 overall pick on OL. They picked another lineman 23 spots before Sam and yet a third the very next pick.

Seriously, I'm not sure why you are going down this. Seven picks combined to the two groups you think drafting Sam hurt - the OL and secondary - and an eighth who was (media) 3rd-round prospect signed after the draft.

Regarding the "media pump," the vast majority of Rams coverage I've seen - aside from a few days directly following the draft - has been about a young team with talent on the verge of being a serious playoff contender. Dungy's comments on Sam made a bit of news yesterday, but most Sam-related news has been footnotes in overall team reports.

Don't take this the wrong way, but it sounds almost like you want to find some logical way to justify disliking the Sam pick. At least with the "we should have taken a secondary/OL instead and gotten him UDFA" part.

Edit to add: I don't disagree with you on LB depth. Missed that in my first read of your post. I guess the staff likes Bates, Steward, Armstrong and Hill or Wilson as the backups. Again though, the guys they brought in were UDFAs, so I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter if they grabbed Sam in the 7th and them as FAs or vise versa. I would have liked Yawin Smallwood, but such a minor thing.

Look, don't take this the wrong way, but you seem to be looking for something in my posts that would give someone a reason to lecture me on my dislike of the pick. Again, it has absolutely nothing to do with Sam or his personal life. I don't see the need for a project DE. I would have rather spent that pick on anything else than DE. I want more OL simply because depth is a big issue there to me, and 3 of our starter's are injury prone. I want more secondary help because we need the extra competition. We simply need more LBers. I keep going down this because you keep asking me to justify my opinion. I maybe misinterpreting you here, but I get the sense you are waiting for me to reveal some anti gay agenda. I assure you strongly that you can ease your worry. I just think another DE is unneeded vs other positions.
Also, my awareness of the way the media works isn't anti gay either. I do feel that we wouldn't be getting talked about if not for the initial buzz after draft. It raised awareness not only of our tolerance, but of the challenge of making the team due to our dline. In doing so, it prompted people to take a look at a team they wouldn't have cared about otherwise. One could argue without malice that the pick COULD have had something to do with the ticket and jersey buying public as it did with Sam's talent. If so, its a savvy move.

I cannot stress enough that I don't care about Sam's sex life. I've watched True Blood for years, nothing Sam does on tv or in training camp in regards to his personal life is going to be anything like a big deal.
 
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Yamahopper

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My bag of F's to give about what Sam does off the field seems to be empty. All I care about is if Sam can help the Rams win some ball games.
 

DCH

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Look, don't take this the wrong way, but you seem to be looking for something in my posts that would give someone a reason to lecture me on my dislike of the pick. Again, it has absolutely nothing to do with Sam or his personal life. I don't see the need for a project DE. I would have rather spent that pick on anything else than DE. I want more OL simply because depth is a big issue there to me, and 3 of our starter's are injury prone. I want more secondary help because we need the extra competition. We simply need more LBers. I keep going down this because you keep asking me to justify my opinion. I maybe misinterpreting you here, but I get the sense you are waiting for me to reveal some anti gay agenda. I assure you strongly that you can ease your worry. I just think another DE is unneeded vs other positions.
Also, my awareness of the way the media works isn't anti gay either. I do feel that we wouldn't be getting talked about if not for the initial buzz after draft. It raised awareness not only of our tolerance, but of the challenge of making the team due to our dline. In doing so, it prompted people to take a look at a team they wouldn't have cared about otherwise. One could argue without malice that the pick COULD have had something to do with the ticket and jersey buying public as it did with Sam's talent. If so, its a savvy move.

I cannot stress enough that I don't care about Sam's sex life. I've watched True Blood for years, nothing Sam does on tv or in training camp is going to be anything like a big deal.
Fair enough. Let's part as friends from this thread.
 

blue4

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QUOTE="DCH, post: 350446, member: 1377"]Fair enough. Let's part as friends from this thread.[/QUOTE]

I'm happy to. I may have responded too strongly, but I wanted to make sure that not only you but others knew where I stood. Sometimes I fail get my point communicated on forums correctly. Sometimes things I think are crystal clear get universally read different than I intended.
 

DCH

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I'm happy to. I may have responded too strongly, but I wanted to make sure that not only you but others knew where I stood. Sometimes I fail get my point communicated on forums correctly. Sometimes things I think are crystal clear get universally read different than I intended.
No worries. The one guy I would, as a fan, have taken over Sam is Yawin Smallwood, so I feel you on the LB thing. I just disagree that we should have taken a secondary or OL in his place.
 

mr.stlouis

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Nothing new, here. 31 other coaches/GM's agree with Dungy. He wasn't getting drafted.
 

RK3

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My compliments to blue4 and DCH on how they handled themselves in this thread. This is a good example of the behavior that we SHOULD be seeing on other forums and what I was hoping I would see here.
 

blue4

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My compliments to blue4 and DCH on how they handled themselves in this thread. This is a good example of the behavior that we SHOULD be seeing on other forums and what I was hoping I would see here.

Thank you, finding this forum was a welcome change for me as well.
 

Prime Time

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  • Thread Starter Thread Starter
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Sometimes I fail get my point communicated on forums correctly. Sometimes things I think are crystal clear get universally read different than I intended.

This is the problem that everyone on the net has to one extent or another. Emoticons, colored text, pics, gifs, and videos do help somewhat but can never take the place of a face-to-face conversation. 99% of the vitriol on the net could be eliminated if posters would decide not to post something they wouldn't say to someone else's face.
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Kaufman provides context to Dungy remarks
Posted by Mike Florio on July 22, 2014

dungy.jpg
AP

Hall of Fame coaching finalist and NBC Football Night in America analyst Tony Dungy made major waves on Monday with comments to Ira Kaufman of the Tampa Tribune regarding Rams defensive end Michael Sam.

I wouldn’t have taken him,” Dungy told Kaufman. “Not because I don’t believe Michael Sam should have a chance to play, but I wouldn’t want to deal with all of it. It’s not going to be totally smooth . . . things will happen.’’

On Tuesday’s edition of The Dan Patrick Show, Kaufman provided context and further insight regarding the remarks.

“I think what he was trying to say, and this is what’s going to make it very difficult in terms of an additional response, because it’s sensitive,” Kaufman said. “Dan, this is not Sammy Watkins. This is Michael Sam. And by that I mean, by definition, a seventh-round draft pick is marginal. The guy’s marginal. May make the roster, may not make the roster. Nobody’s gonna be surprised if any seventh-round pick doesn’t make the roster.

“So I think it’s almost like he’s not worth the trouble,” Kaufman said of Sam. “Now, you can’t say that, that’s a very crude way to put it. And Tony won’t put it like that. But I think you’ve got to factor in the fact that [Sam] almost went undrafted, and there’s no question that the Oprah Network and TMZ, they’re gonna be at Rams Park, and they’re not gonna be there to check on Aaron Donald’s progress at nose tackle. And you know that. They’re gonna be there for a specific purpose . . . . He put his coaching hat on and not as an analyst for NBC in answering the question and as a coach, a marginal prospect weighed against the distraction, and that’s why he said what I said. That’s what I think he meant.”

Eventually, we’ll hear more about what Dungy meant. He’s scheduled to join Dan’s show later in the week. Until then, the reaction to the comments will continue.

“I’m a little surprised about what he said,” Kaufman said of Dungy. “I was surprised at the time. I’m surprised now. Just because of his reputation as a pioneer, outspoken about minority issues. Keeping an open mind on hiring practices. Don’t go in with stereotypes. But, again, I don’t think he was being homophobic.”

Sam is indeed a marginal prospect. Rams G.M. Les Snead told PFT Live two days after picking Sam that the Rams hoped to sign a pair of defensive ends as undrafted free agents, but that the team feared undrafted free agents wouldn’t choose to join a depth chart stacked with pass rushers. That makes the uphill climb even more challenging for Sam.

And that makes this situation far different from Jackie Robinson breaking the color barrier in baseball. Robinson’s talent was undeniable. Branch Rickey wouldn’t have stuck his neck out for a player who would have been struggling to stay on the roster. The Rams have willingly embraced a slew of potential distractions with no obvious strategic upside.

That’s possibly what Tony was saying. We’ll know much more when Tony addresses the comments later this week.
 

DCH

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I figured that was what Tony meant, still disagree with it. The Rams control media access as well as any team in the league, and so far there's been very little kerfluffle around Sam aside from media discussing whether he'll be a distraction (which is, to me, self-fulfilling and ironic).

I expect there will be spikes for a day or 2 if/when he makes the team/gets cut. But both Sam and the Rams seem to be handling this really well, and I don't think there will be that much beyond the initial news.
 

Akrasian

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We took two corners and two safeties. All before Sam was taken. Then we signed the top UDFA corner. Was that not enough?

The OL needed people - but they took 3 in the draft as it was. If there was a linebacker they actually liked they could have taken him - but I'm not sure there was anyone they wanted.

For all the criticisms of Sam as a tweener - he was a very effective pass rusher in the top conference. A dedicated pass rusher with the motor to excel on special teams seems like a decent gamble for a 7th round comp pick, and is the sort of thing that Fisher would want anyway. I'm not saying that Fisher didn't want to take him for ethical reasons too - but there were sufficient football reasons too.
 
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DCH

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The OL needed people - but they took 3 in the draft as it was. If there was a linebacker they actually liked they could have taken him - but I'm not sure there was anyone they wanted.

For all the criticisms of Sam as a tweener - he was a very effective pass rusher in the top conference. A dedicated pass rusher with the motor to excel on special teams seems like a decent gamble for a 7th round comp pick, and is the sort of thing that Fisher would want anyway. I'm not saying that Fisher didn't want to take him for ethical reasons too - but there were sufficient
I tend to agree. As I've said, Yawin Smallwood would have been my choice, but I certainly think Sam will be - and was taken because he will be - a viable player in the NFL and potentially a fit on the Rams.
 

bluecoconuts

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Even if he didn't mean anything homophobic by it, given his track record, it's very easy to see the dots connect there. Further more even if he explains it different, I doubt that everyone will be convinced that it's not just damage control for the backlash he has gotten as a result.