TNF: Dolphins@Ravens

[nighttrain]

it really isn't about a player being dirty, plays are bang bang, it's about the penalty, and should it be called
train

 

[VilleDeal]

yawn....

 

[jrry32]

Seriously? How fast was Jack going forward? And Jared is starting his slide - a real one - a full four yards before Jack gets in to position to tackle him. Just look at Jack's body position. The comparison is laughable.

Flacco started his slide more than four yards away. He was two yards away when his ass was on the ground. Goff's ass was not on the ground when he was only a yard away.

Jack wasn't moving as fast as Alonso, but that's not the issue. You're claiming that Alonso MENTALLY didn't have time to avoid the hit. You're not claiming he was going too fast to avoid it (because we both know it's a bad argument). Jack, here, had a similar amount of time. Look what he does. He sees Goff sliding, he doesn't go low, and he jumps over the top to avoid getting flagged. Alonso could have done the exact same thing. We have a picture there showing that.

The comparison is only laughable because you made your mind up. I could show you 10 plays just like Alonso's, and you would find some way to distinguish all of them.

I fully admit my mind is made up. But that's because I've seen so many plays like that over the years where the QB doesn't get his head taken off.

 

[RamFan503]

it really isn't about a player being dirty, plays are bang bang, it's about the penalty, and should it be called
train

And I said that I'm fine with the flag being thrown but not the contention that Alonso was going for the dirty play. Regardless, Flacco waited too long and then just tried to pull off this sit down move instead of an actual slide. You have to look at how fast Alonso is coming at Flacco and Flacco was late in recognizing that because he was going for the first down. Alonso's job was to stop him, not to decide if he was going to stop a half yard before the marker.

 

[nighttrain]

once the QB goes into his slide, it's over though, all he has to do is be touched to stop forward progress
train

 

[Debacled]

The nice thing about having the internet is that we can review the video. Here are some nice photos that illustrate to me why nobody will ever convince me that Alonso couldn't have pulled off:

These photos show that Flacco started to go down to slide while 4+ yards away from Alonso. Flacco was already down when Alonso was still about two yards away and could have very easily leaped over Flacco like we've seen so many defenders do in that situation. The final two pictures show how low Alonso had to drop to hit Flacco and make clear that he didn't pull off at all. He made no attempt to avoid the head-shot. In fact, it's quite clear he went straight for it.

Alonso could have made some effort to avoid that hit. He made none. That's not on Flacco. I don't care if you think he slid late. The blame lies on the guy who intentionally and illegally went after the QB's head. I'd have stuck up for Alonso if he made some attempt to avoid contact, but there is nothing there showing him make any attempt to do anything but target Flacco's head.

I don't care if you want to make a QB pay. Do it within the rules of the game (unless it's Brady).

Look, I'm all for player safety....but posting still frame shots and a slow motion video isn't going to convince me of anything. It was a very late slide with two players running at each other at virtually top speed.

Less than half a second passed between Flacco BEGINNING his slide and contact. The man was locked in on that 1st down line and not even last second but last millisecond dropped when he noticed Alonso coming in. On average it takes nearly if not slightly more than a quarter second to react to visual stimuli. The man isn't the flash, even had he wanted to there was no time to pull off.

This is just like the hit Joyner dropped on Bridgewater last year. There is nothing you can really do when you are already committed to make a play with a slide that late. Hell its dangerous for defenders as well.

The only way to eliminate something like this is to eliminate the slide, that way you won't have guys sliding into the ankles of defenders expecting some kind of special protection. And we all know that isn't going to happen.

 

[jrry32]

Look, I'm all for player safety....but posting still frame shots and a slow motion video isn't going to convince me of anything. It was a very late slide with two players running at each other at virtually top speed.

Less than half a second passed between Flacco BEGINNING his slide and contact. The man was locked in on that 1st down line and not even last second but last millisecond dropped when he noticed Alonso coming in. On average it takes nearly if not slightly more than a quarter second to react to visual stimuli. The man isn't the flash, even had he wanted to there was no time to pull off.

This is just like the hit Joyner dropped on Bridgewater last year. There is nothing you can really do when you are already committed to make a play with a slide that late. Hell its dangerous for defenders as well.

The only way to eliminate something like this is to eliminate the slide, that way you won't have guys sliding into the ankles of defenders expecting some kind of special protection. And we all know that isn't going to happen.

But it wasn't a late slide. Four yards is pretty typical in that situation.

And you're right. It is like the Joyner hit on Bridgewater. Compare the two hits. Joyner contorts his body to try to avoid hitting Bridgewater and mistakenly catches him with an elbow to the head. That's a guy trying to avoid the hit. Alonso made no effort to avoid it. He made no effort to contort his body. He made no effort to avoid the QB's head. Just compare Joyner with Alonso:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22F_qQBIvrw


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4M1O0X5488


That should show you that Alonso made no effort to avoid that hit. Joyner tried to plant, spin, and go over the top. Alonso just blasted him at full speed.

Joyner's hit was illegal, but I don't think it was intentional. He made an effort to deviate from his path. At no point did Alonso make an effort to deviate from his path. Joyner shows you how much a NFL player can do in a split second. Because he had less time than Alonso.

 

[jrry32]

once the QB goes into his slide, it's over though, all he has to do is be touched to stop forward progress
train

The play is over as soon as he starts the slide. Doesn't even have to be touched. He's down at the spot where he began the slide.

 

[RamFan503]

Flacco started his slide more than four yards away.

I will give you that it appears that he starts his slide about 4 yards before the hit.

He was two yards away when his ass was on the ground.

Watch the video again. His butt hits the ground at almost the exact same time as Alonso hits him.

Jack wasn't moving as fast as Alonso, but that's not the issue.

It ABSOLUTELY is the issue. Running full speed on a direct line toward the QB who is also moving almost directly toward the on coming defender is central to the whole issue. It's simple physics. Jack is running laterally and then gets in front of Goff. The situation couldn't get any different. Then Jared makes an actual slide giving his legs and feet up if necessary but not his head. Flacco cuts does this kind of sit down maneuver while rolling to his side - thus also giving up his upper body and head.

You're not claiming he was going too fast to avoid it (because we both know it's a bad argument).

Actually, that is exactly what I'm arguing. Have you ever taken a physics course?At the point Flacco decided to bail on going for the first down, it was too late. Alonso was in full attack mode trying to stop Flacco from obtaining first and goal.

Jack, here, had a similar amount of time. Look what he does. He sees Goff sliding, he doesn't go low, and he jumps over the top to avoid getting flagged. Alonso could have done the exact same thing. We have a picture there showing that.

Because not only is Goff no where hear the 1st down marker but he goes into an obvious slide when Jack has plenty of time to stop. He takes the easy yards and gets down.

The comparison is only laughable because you made your mind up.

You are really going to point that finger at ANYONE?

 

[OldSchool]

Seriously? How fast was Jack going forward? And Jared is starting his slide - a real one - a full four yards before Jack gets in to position to tackle him. Just look at Jack's body position. The comparison is laughable.

That's the same distance Alonso was from Flacco when he started his slide.

 

[jrry32]

It ABSOLUTELY is the issue. Running full speed on a direct line toward the QB who is also moving almost directly toward the on coming defender is central to the whole issue. It's simple physics. Jack is running laterally and then gets in front of Goff. The situation couldn't get any different. Then Jared makes an actual slide giving his legs and feet up if necessary but not his head. Flacco cuts does this kind of sit down maneuver while rolling to his side - thus also giving up his upper body and head.

Actually, that is exactly what I'm arguing. Have you ever taken a physics course?At the point Flacco decided to bail on going for the first down, it was too late. Alonso was in full attack mode trying to stop Flacco from obtaining first and goal.

If your contention is that his speed was the issue, rather than him not having time to react, you have no defense for the assertion that Alonso could have jumped over Flacco.

You are really going to point that finger at ANYONE?

Yes, I am. Nice job on the hatchet job, BTW.

I am fine acting that way because I'm bringing examples to the table as evidence for my argument. Even Joyner, who had less time than Alonso, made some effort to avoid the hit. There's no explanation for why Alonso made no attempt at all to avoid the hit other than the obvious one: He didn't want to avoid the hit.

 

[Debacled]

once the QB goes into his slide, it's over though, all he has to do is be touched to stop forward progress
train

He doesn't need to be touched, play is dead where he goes down.

Here's Jared Goff sliding late against Myles Jack:

Oh look, Jack avoids hitting Goff by going over the top instead of going low and trying to take his head off. And Goff slid later than Flacco did.

Not even a close comparison other than distance when you take the screenshot. Neither plai

But it wasn't a late slide. Four yards is pretty typical in that situation.

And you're right. It is like the Joyner hit on Bridgewater. Compare the two hits. Joyner contorts his body to try to avoid hitting Bridgewater and mistakenly catches him with an elbow to the head. That's a guy trying to avoid the hit. Alonso made no effort to avoid it. He made no effort to contort his body. He made no effort to avoid the QB's head. Just compare Joyner with Alonso:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22F_qQBIvrw


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4M1O0X5488


That should show you that Alonso made no effort to avoid that hit. Joyner tried to plant, spin, and go over the top. Alonso just blasted him at full speed.

Joyner's hit was illegal, but I don't think it was intentional. He made an effort to deviate from his path. At no point did Alonso make an effort to deviate from his path. Joyner shows you how much a NFL player can do in a split second. Because he had less time than Alonso.

Distance isn't a deciding factor here, speed is....speed always is. Distance over time, and you can't even compare the Joyner hit really as it was slower than Alonso's. Made an adjustment or otherwise he still got popped.

These guys are football players, not the flash. There was no time to make an adjustment let alone even think about intention. If you want to argue there was enough time to get out of the way you could just as easily argue that Flacco had plenty of time to make a better slide, one where he doesn't just kick his legs out and essentially land on his ass.

Flacco was thinking first down and get down. Alonso beat him to the line.

Late slides are getting players hurt. QB or tackler it doesn't matter, its a dangerous play to slide at a guys legs like that so egregiously late.

 

[OldSchool]

Late slides are getting players hurt. QB or tackler it doesn't matter, its a dangerous play to slide at a guys legs like that so egregiously late.

Wrong, shoulders, forearms and helmets to the head are getting players hurt. Regardless of if it's a QB, RB WR or water boy it's illegal to do that. Not sure what's so hard to understand about that really simple fact.

 

[jrry32]

Distance isn't a deciding factor here, speed is....speed always is. Distance over time, and you can't even compare the Joyner hit really as it was slower than Alonso's. Made an adjustment or otherwise he still got popped.

These guys are football players, not the flash. There was no time to make an adjustment let alone even think about intention. If you want to argue there was enough time to get out of the way you could just as easily argue that Flacco had plenty of time to make a better slide, one where he doesn't just kick his legs out and essentially land on his ass.

Joyner was moving "slower" than Alonso because he SLOWED DOWN. Bridgewater is faster than Flacco. Joyner is faster than Alonso. Neither guy was walking out there. The difference is that when Joyner saw Bridgewater start to slide, he slowed down instead of ignoring the slide and staying on his path.

I'm sure Joyner would have been moving at an even faster speed if he had decided to keep running full speed into Bridgewater. The difference here is that Joyner isn't a piece of shit. Joyner saw a sliding QB and tried to adjust. Alonso did not. That's clear as day.

Flacco was thinking first down and get down. Alonso beat him to the line.

The photo evidence shows Flacco starting his slide three yards short of the first down and clearly being down at least one yard short of it. This simply isn't an accurate point. I'm sure Flacco was initially thinking first down, but when Flacco realized he couldn't get it, his thought was get down. And he tried (and succeeded). Let's not misrepresent what happened.

 

[-X-]

These photos show that Flacco started to go down to slide while 4+ yards away from Alonso.

Probably. But that all took place in the course of one second.
Those pictures make it look like it took eleven minutes.

 

[jrry32]

Probably. But that all took place in the course of one second.
Those pictures make it look like it took eleven minutes.

But everything in the NFL takes place in the course of one second. Todd Gurley has a split second to make a jump cut. The defender has a split second to react. That's football.

How often do you see a QB hit like that? How often do you see a QB slide with a defender running at him? How is it that so many other defenders can avoid taking the QB's head off? What makes this play special or different? Are you telling me that Flacco slid so much later than any other QB would in the same situation? I just don't see that at all.

 

[-X-]

How often do you see a QB hit like that? How often do you see a QB slide with a defender running at him? How is it that so many other defenders can avoid taking the QB's head off? What makes this play special or different? Are you telling me that Flacco slid so much later than any other QB would in the same situation? I just don't see that at all.

That's too many questions, and I don't care enough about this topic to answer them all.
My original assertion was that Flacco slid too late. Nothing's really changed in that regard.

 

[pmil66]

Looked at the video, Flacco was going down, not really sliding, on the 13 yr line, Alonso was 4-5 yards away. Stopped the video one second later, the ball was out, a good 3 yards away, Flacco was flat on his back. Looked to me like Alonso had less than 1 second to determine Flacco was going down, perhaps sliding, and pull back or jump over him instead of hitting him. Tough for a defender to do that. Not sure is Alonso has a reputation of a dirty player, but im sure he does now.

 

[VilleDeal]

That's too many questions, and I don't care enough about this topic to answer them all.
My original assertion was that Flacco slid too late. Nothing's really changed in that regard.

ditto

 

[Debacled]

But everything in the NFL takes place in the course of one second. Todd Gurley has a split second to make a jump cut. The defender has a split second to react. That's football.

How often do you see a QB hit like that? How often do you see a QB slide with a defender running at him? How is it that so many other defenders can avoid taking the QB's head off? What makes this play special or different? Are you telling me that Flacco slid so much later than any other QB would in the same situation? I just don't see that at all.

Half a second, if not less. I already went into the specifics of reaction time. As stated above Flacco made no motion whatsoever until a half second before they collided.

Kurt Warner called the play for what its worth. Said year its a penalty, but there isn't really much of anything that can be done there. Went on to say you can't place blame on a defense for a hit on a guy sliding so late on a play.