Target To Eliminate Signs Specifying Boys Or Girls Toys

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beej

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I don't see a problem with gender stereotyping. the reason that the word stereotyping even exists is because categories are real. there are outliers in every scientific group or category or what ever you want to call it. If you are an outler, HEY be proud but why do I have to pretend that an outlier is normal. why don't they just pretend not to be an outlier, or if they don't want to pretend, just be what they are and recognize it for what it is.
 

Mojo Ram

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the reason that the word stereotyping even exists is because categories are real.
+1
This statement covers alot of ground actually. Many of which are NOT politically correct. Racism for one.
I won't elaborate here, obviously.
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bluecoconuts

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I don't see a problem with gender stereotyping. the reason that the word stereotyping even exists is because categories are real. there are outliers in every scientific group or category or what ever you want to call it. If you are an outler, HEY be proud but why do I have to pretend that an outlier is normal. why don't they just pretend not to be an outlier, or if they don't want to pretend, just be what they are and recognize it for what it is.

Because "normal" in this situation means that you just cook, clean, and depend on someone else for your livelihood. Why should we be okay with that, it's not good for half our population and it's not good for our country.
 

beej

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Because "normal" in this situation means that you just cook, clean, and depend on someone else for your livelihood. Why should we be okay with that, it's not good for half our population and it's not good for our country.
I never said anything like that. your reply makes it sound like I am forcing something on someone. I'm not. If a woman wants to stay home or work, or if a man wants to stay home or work, I don't really care. If a girl wants to play with boy toys or a boy wants to play with girl toys. that's up to them. but to try and pretend like there is no difference, defies common sense. I've watched both boys and girls grow up. they are different at an early age. When my grandson was born, my niece could spend hours watching him and ooing and ahhing over him. my nephew couldn't care in the least. My niece is 8 years old. she has her wedding planned already. my nephew is 8 also. He just wants to dig for worms. Most boys and girls crave different things. you are just fooling yourself if you deny it.

now i'll say this, when my son was little, he wanted an EZ bake oven. He didn't care that it was in the girl toy aisle. His reasoning was that he wanted to be able to make brownies on his own terms and not wait for mom to say he could have one. Some of his buddies teased him a little, but when he explained his logic, they started asking for one too. LOL
 

bluecoconuts

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I never said anything like that. your reply makes it sound like I am forcing something on someone. I'm not. If a woman wants to stay home or work, or if a man wants to stay home or work, I don't really care. If a girl wants to play with boy toys or a girl wants to boy wants to play with girl toys. that's up to them. but to try and pretend like there is no difference, defies common sense. I've watched both boys and girls grow up. they are different at an early age. When my grandson was born, my niece could spend hours watching him and ooing and ahhing over him. my nephew couldn't care in the least. My niece is 8 years old. she has her wedding planned already. my nephew is 8 also. He just wants to dig for worms. Most boys and girls crave different things. you are just fooling yourself if you deny it.

now i'll say this, when my son was little, he wanted an EZ bake oven. He didn't care that it was in the girl toy aisle. His reasoning was that he wanted to be able to make brownies on his own terms and not wait for mom to say he could have one. Some of his buddies teased him a little, but when he explained his logic, they started asking for one too. LOL

Look at girls toys, they're vacume cleaners, and kitchen stuff. Motherhood is always going to be instinct for women, that's just biological, but cleaning and cooking is a learned trait that is marketed to children at an early age. Boys worry about war, girls worry about making everything good for the boys when they come home. That's the problem with gender stereotyping, we're pushing traditional roles onto our population at an early age, rather than letting them just learn and be kids and play with what interests them, and then nurturing that interest to benefit society at a later age.
 

beej

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Look at girls toys, they're vacume cleaners, and kitchen stuff. Motherhood is always going to be instinct for women, that's just biological, but cleaning and cooking is a learned trait that is marketed to children at an early age. Boys worry about war, girls worry about making everything good for the boys when they come home. That's the problem with gender stereotyping, we're pushing traditional roles onto our population at an early age, rather than letting them just learn and be kids and play with what interests them, and then nurturing that interest to benefit society at a later age.
Do you have kids? I ask that because you are really over simplifying what is in the typical toy aisle for girls.
 

bluecoconuts

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Do you have kids? I ask that because you are really over simplifying what is in the typical toy aisle for girls.

Nope, but I'm not dumb, I know how they market different toys. I know that they have different things in each aisle, but they market certain things to boys or girls. It's stupid, just let kids pick what they want.
 

beej

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Nope, but I'm not dumb, I know how they market different toys. I know that they have different things in each aisle, but they market certain things to boys or girls. It's stupid, just let kids pick what they want.
they do let kids pick what they want. it's called Market studies on the wholesale side and free will on the retail side.
 

Mackeyser

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I got 4 kids including 2 over 21 and I think he nailed it imho.

Frankly, the terms "boy toys" and "girl toys" to me are nonsense.

Sports equipment is just that, not boy toys. Dolls are dolls, not girls toys.

I just don't see why any toy has to be labeled with a gender.

As for roles, I raised my daughters to go for what interested them and to not gender conform. I had NO FREAKING IDEA how hard I would make it on them at certain stages when the pressure to conform to that pink frilly crap is intense...from kids and other parents. I mean I'd have other parents ask my girls, "what's the matter, Princess, dontchya like pink?" in that way that wasn't meant to start a conversation. To my older daughter's credit, she has no filter and she'd just throw shade on the whole princess thing as stupid. And she did. She thought the princess thing was the dumbest thing ever. I'm raising her to think for herself and be accountable and responsible and all these people want her to stand around looking pretty getting her self worth from others? Yeah, she wasn't having that. She offended more than a few parents slamming their princess fixation and while I'd have to once again talk with her about her manner, what she was saying was dead on.

The upshot is that she's getting her degree in math. Unlike most young women, she hasn't fallen away because math is too masculine (actual women who started in math majors polled and left said this). It's BS.

Now part of this is talking past one another because there's this mistaken belief that target changed over one tweet. That just didn't happen. Firstly, that one tweet was retweeted 2000 times. Secondly, you can rest assured that prior to making any changes, they looked into any reorg and what that would mean.

Lastly, there are older folks who WANT boys toys and girls toys and WANT the pink frilly princess stuff for girls and robots and trucks for boys. Well, sorry, that time is past. Waxing nostalgic for that time isn't much different than remembering when we only had 6 channels to choose from or when the remote control was the youngest kid in the room.

Times are different and we're best served dealing with what's real in the here and now.

As for the vaunted market...Lego sold a science set with women scientists in it that immediately sold out. Demand was off the charts. Did they make more? No. So many companies really don't understand their customers it's not funny. The idea that the free market is a venue of perfect information between buyer and seller is laughable. And that's the point. Umpteen toy makers are losing money catering to parents who still cling to this outdated notion of gender bias. Kids don't want that and when kids are left unfettered to pick what they want without parents saying what they should have because they are boys or girls, the results are substantially different. I mean some parents will buy a boy an easy bake oven, but so many wont. Plenty of parents won't buy a girl a science set a robotics set or sports equipment. They just won't.

It's easy to look at what's already been purchased and say, "see?" The point is that if the kids were allowed other choices without the coercion and without the gender bias, we'd see lots more diversity in the choices kids make.
 
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beej

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I had NO FREAKING IDEA how hard I would make it on them at certain stages when the pressure to conform to that pink frilly crap is intense
now see I read that and think that you are just as guilty as any body else about molding them into your image of what they should be.

It sounds forced and coerced. While my point is to let them play with what ever comes natural to them. you can buy all the toys you want. Dolls, GI joes, trucks, ponies, dishes, doctors kits, etc. Bring them home, put them in a toy box. Sit back and see what they play with. There are toys that are common to both sexes. but there will most likely be toys that boys are interested in and toys that girls are interested in.
 

bluecoconuts

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The upshot is that she's getting her degree in math. Unlike most young women, she hasn't fallen away because math is too masculine (actual women who started in math majors polled and left said this). It's BS.

Good, we need more women in STEM. Frankly, we need more STEM majors, but ratio of guys and girls is pretty bad. Which was a little shocking to me, since early in school girls always seemed to get the higher grades. I don't know what happens at the High School and Jr High level to get girls to stop caring about the important subjects in school, but it's a shame.
 

beej

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I don't know what happens at the High School and Jr High level to get girls to stop caring about the important subjects in school, but it's a shame.
maybe nothing happens. maybe they naturally just don't care.
 

bluecoconuts

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maybe nothing happens. maybe they naturally just don't care.

Well we don't really encourage them to peruse the sciences, we encourage women to be stay at home moms, and men to go out and bring home the bacon.
 

beej

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Well we don't really encourage them to peruse the sciences, we encourage women to be stay at home moms, and men to go out and bring home the bacon.
that's not true at all. there are endless scholarships for universities and no limits placed on them in high school. I know for a fact that when my brother tried to get into vet school, his grades had to be significantly higher than a woman's grades to get in. Maybe you don't consider medicine to science fields. but he ended up in plant research working for companies similar to Monsanto. And he has told me that about half of the researchers he works with are women. so....
 

beej

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we encourage women to be stay at home moms
I don't want to badger you too much, but I've got questions. first off who is WE. do you mean men? or do you mean your family, or the state of california? I don't know. I don't see it. I saw that in the 70's when I was growing up. but i don't see that now. Anywhere! My daughter was pressured to go to college while she was in high school. I never heard anyone pressure her to stay home. She actually has put that pressure on herself now that her son is born.

My wife went to school to teach and she did teach for a while but she wanted to stay home and raise our children by herself rather than pay daycare workers to do it. Personally, I was thinking at the time, we would have a lot more money if she taught school. But I let her do what she wanted, and in the end, I guess if I admit it, she was probably right to do it.

but I don't see anyone, anywhere trying to keep women home and begging for an allowance from a male breadwinner. I don't know where you are getting that.
 

bluecoconuts

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that's not true at all. there are endless scholarships for universities and no limits placed on them in high school. I know for a fact that when my brother tried to get into vet school, his grades had to be significantly higher than a woman's grades to get in. Maybe you don't consider medicine to science fields. but he ended up in plant research working for companies similar to Monsanto. And he has told me that about half of the researchers he works with are women. so....

That is true.

Women only make up about 17% of STEM degrees, which would be why it's likely easier for them to get into a school, schools want them, and there are less applicants. Medicine technically isn't included in STEM, but women are still underrepresented in it, albeit better than the STEM fields, about 34%. There are places where there are more women of course, but overall it's very lacking. There's probably about 30 women in my lab building and over 200 men.

I don't want to badger you too much, but I've got questions. first off who is WE. do you mean men? or do you mean your family, or the state of california? I don't know. I don't see it. I saw that in the 70's when I was growing up. but i don't see that now. Anywhere! My daughter was pressured to go to college while she was in high school. I never heard anyone pressure her to stay home. She actually has put that pressure on herself now that her son is born.

My wife went to school to teach and she did teach for a while but she wanted to stay home and raise our children by herself rather than pay daycare workers to do it. Personally, I was thinking at the time, we would have a lot more money if she taught school. But I let her do what she wanted, and in the end, I guess if I admit it, she was probably right to do it.

but I don't see anyone, anywhere trying to keep women home and begging for an allowance from a male breadwinner. I don't know where you are getting that.

Society in general, the traditional gender roles say that men go out and work, go to war, build stuff and do man shit, women (for the most part) are taught more to stay home, cook, clean, etc, be the stay at home mom.

We've gotten better in the sense that we tell everyone they should go to college and get their degree, but what about afterwards? How do we, as a society, view a man who is single into his 30's? 40's? What about women? Single men are seen are eligible bachelors, women are seen as desperate and unwanted, they need to find someone fast and settled down or be 'doomed' to a life alone.

Some people choose to stay at home and raise children, or not go to college, and that's just fine. I don't have issues with that. In terms of pressure it's not people actually going up and screaming to settle down and pop out kids, but you look at what society in general expects, that's what happens. Again, look back at being a child, we target the vacuum cleaners and kitchen stuff to girls. Boys go to wood shop, women go to Home Ec, etc. If that is what someone wants to do, then great, but I don't think it's good to try to direct people into those molds though, because there could be some amazing fathers who think they need to be out working, or some amazing engineers/scientists/businesswomen etc who think they need to be at home taking care of the kids.

I know guys who wanted to be dad's their entire lives and they're wonderful at it, I have a friend who if you ask him what he is most proud of it's that he works hard enough so that his wife doesn't need to and can stay at home with his two boys. That's great, I'm proud of him, and I have nothing wrong with that. Obviously that's not what everyone wants to do though.
 

beej

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Again, look back at being a child, we target the vacuum cleaners
I don't think I've ever seen a toy vacuum sweeper. I know you've been spending a lot of time out looking for new planets, but when you come back down to earth I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised at some of our new girl toys. Lol ;)
 

Mackeyser

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now see I read that and think that you are just as guilty as any body else about molding them into your image of what they should be.

It sounds forced and coerced. While my point is to let them play with what ever comes natural to them. you can buy all the toys you want. Dolls, GI joes, trucks, ponies, dishes, doctors kits, etc. Bring them home, put them in a toy box. Sit back and see what they play with. There are toys that are common to both sexes. but there will most likely be toys that boys are interested in and toys that girls are interested in.

See, that's just it. I didn't. I would totally cop to it if I did. I picked more gender neutral shows (Rollie Pollie Ollie for one and Bear in the Big Blue House when they were younger) and talked to them like people and fostered their interests.

I'll share one day soon what my deal is about being a dad and you'll see that forcing something on them is the last thing I'm about. My whole deal is being a resource for them, to both train and nurture them.

So when they were in elementary and middle school without all that inculcation and projection and pressure to conform at home, it was foreign to them and at times they struggled. I admit it never occurred to me just how deep ( I knew it went deep, it's why we parented the way we did, but the depth still shocked us) some of these things went although I can't say is change anything.

What's funny is that as men, we'd never allow society to define us so narrowly even if there were outliers. We can't ignore the pressures that exists which prevents free decision making.

I'll just say that raising two daughters has been an education that has been more valuable to me than I can ever calculate or fathom.
 

bluecoconuts

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I don't think I've ever seen a toy vacuum sweeper. I know you've been spending a lot of time out looking for new planets, but when you come back down to earth I think you are going to be pleasantly surprised at some of our new girl toys. Lol ;)

On the left from a toy catalog in 1976. On the right are today's toys.

BLiT7ZWCQAAiJ41.jpg



One page back ;)


Baby stuff I get, doll house, phone thing whatever.. Washer/dryer and vacuum though?