Target To Eliminate Signs Specifying Boys Or Girls Toys

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Angry Ram

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Does anyone else remember this as being how it has always been? Signs designating Boys and Girls toys?

Nope, never was. Because no one cared. Everyone knew Barbie/pink = girls and Power Rangers/blue = boys.

I think parents should stop worrying so damn much over freakin toys and let their kids play with what they want to.
 

fearsomefour

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Yeah they do, I've met wonderful people of every faith and awful people of every faith. In the end it doesn't really matter, crappy people will use whatever they feel necessary to justify their actions.
Exactly.
Religious, not religious, race, financial status, education level....there are a lot of different ways people chose to separate and divide themselves. People that carry a "victim" mentality, are looking to be offended by others and are always looking for ways they have been wronged or discriminated against....these can be some of the most vindictive nasty and bigoted people around. That is just my experience of course. A lot of things that generate an emotional response in people do so because the person feels insecure. Once people get into an argument where emotions are the driving force behind their point of view, no progress will be made.
Society in general....and maybe this is feed by social media....seems very apt to react to things emotionally now. Not a lot of logic going on.
 

bluecoconuts

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So, I think finding your own definition for "Creator" that work for you personally, and is also consistent with the Founders' goals, is an acceptable and worthy approach for addressing this dilemma. I don't think you need to worry about trying to make your logic fit into some religious framework.

That's more what I was getting at, I can buy into a creator being nature in itself, and nothing about any deity, that works for me.
 

-X-

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This thread went from toys to deep philosophy. Lol.
ROD for the win.
 

Ramhusker

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Just order off of Amazon, that's what I do. I really don't see how it'll be any different honestly though, it's not like the stores have things spread out, it'll still be in the same 4-5 rows as it always was.

I've never noticed any extra length of time for unisex bathrooms either. The ones we have that are group ones (more than one person at a time) are the same as any male bathroom, except cleaner... Female bathrooms are usually just as gross as male bathrooms, but when we share everyone is nice and polite and clean, which is great. The ones that are single person both genders take about the same length of time,

Dude! You must of never encountered them at a sporting event or park? I'm sure it isn't as noticeable at say a restaurant or convenience store but I've about busted a bladder waiting at Nascar race (Martinsville) before.:eek:
 

bluecoconuts

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Dude! You must of never encountered them at a sporting event or park? I'm sure it isn't as noticeable at say a restaurant or convenience store but I've about busted a bladder waiting at Nascar race (Martinsville) before.:eek:

For unisex? I didn't know they even made those for big events.
 

Ramhusker

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For unisex? I didn't know they even made those for big events.
They probably don't yet but when porta johns are brought into play, it gets ugly. Martinsville Speedway used to not have bathrooms so they brought in hundreds of porta johns. Bad bad mistake not putting gender on those things. I've never waited so long to relieve myself with a dozen beers under the belt. :eek:
 

bluecoconuts

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They probably don't yet but when porta johns are brought into play, it gets ugly. Martinsville Speedway used to not have bathrooms so they brought in hundreds of porta johns. Bad bad mistake not putting gender on those things. I've never waited so long to relieve myself with a dozen beers under the belt. :eek:

Seems more like they had too many people and not enough bathrooms than a gender thing. I mean obviously women have more steps in the sense that they need to sit, but again in my experience I've never seen it be a problem or any unreasonable length of time. Maybe it's the setting though, girls aren't going in there to gossip and do makeup around the lab. In fact having unisex probably saves time, because there's a lot more males than females, and if they separated by gender we would have half the bathrooms available.
 

Mackeyser

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'Bout damn time.

I raised my girls as PEOPLE and my eldest daughter is working on her degree in Math, a very male dominated field.

They are not intimidated by traditionally "male" things because we didn't raise them to be afraid of or to shy away from "male" dominated or male oriented things. They enjoy video games and it was my eldest daughter who of all my kids joined me at the Tampa v Rams game and ROD tailgate (we still laugh that while everyone else was drinking, we were guiltily camped at the ribs.../drool #bestribsever) and she would watch football with me.

Since 2009, male viewership has remained flat, but female viewership and the increase in female fans has been responsible for all of the increase since then.

Just think about a toy section. It's two separate toy sections because of gender when kids don't play that way. My Little Pony has a fan following that spans gender and age. And that's just one of a zillion examples. I'll list a bunch if anyone's interested. The list is LOOOOONG. My kids and I just were talking about this topic not too long ago.

Gender assignment for toys is just an outdated notion. Kids will pick the toys they want no matter what signs some corporation puts up.

That it happened in response to a tweet? How else? How else should a corp get that input that gender assignment isn't working? Market study? Survey? Is it because it's a tweet? I don't really care. They got it right and it's a small thing, but not a small thing at the same time.
 

jrry32

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dude the difference is if a man simple walked in and did that he gets hauled off to jail and forever be a sex offender. but you're talking about making it legal. but I'm talking locker rooms and such too. and YES a child could tell. A month ago I was at a physical therapy appointment and in walked in Mrs. Doubtfire from head to toe. this man was probably 6'2 a little 5oclock shadow full dress makeup and wig. and he was dead serious about it and had been there before. you know that could leave a very upsetting impact on a child in a locker room if they saw the ins and outs of something like that. but nvm the conversation you're set in your ways and don't think it's anything so I'll drop it

Exposing yourself to a child isn't legal in any scenario.
 

Ramhusker

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Seems more like they had too many people and not enough bathrooms than a gender thing. I mean obviously women have more steps in the sense that they need to sit, but again in my experience I've never seen it be a problem or any unreasonable length of time. Maybe it's the setting though, girls aren't going in there to gossip and do makeup around the lab. In fact having unisex probably saves time, because there's a lot more males than females, and if they separated by gender we would have half the bathrooms available.
I'd honestly have to say that any event that I've ever been to, or at any bar, any mall, etc. the line at the bathroom is ALWAYS longer at the women's side without exception.
 

bluecoconuts

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I'd honestly have to say that any event that I've ever been to, or at any bar, any mall, etc. the line at the bathroom is ALWAYS longer at the women's side without exception.

Yeah, like I said they have more steps. However I haven't seen a huge issue in terms of unisex bathrooms, I don't know if it's the setting or if they're just being quicker, or if it helps that there's twice as many bathrooms for them to use, but I haven't seen any issues. There's also fewer toilets typically available in female only ones then mens bathrooms. In the unisex ones we have there are still urinals available, so if women are using the stalls we can just take a leak there.
 

fearsomefour

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Yeah, like I said they have more steps. However I haven't seen a huge issue in terms of unisex bathrooms, I don't know if it's the setting or if they're just being quicker, or if it helps that there's twice as many bathrooms for them to use, but I haven't seen any issues. There's also fewer toilets typically available in female only ones then mens bathrooms. In the unisex ones we have there are still urinals available, so if women are using the stalls we can just take a leak there.
Not to sound like an idiot but it has seemed to me unisex bathrooms I have used are kept up a little bit better. Maybe that is subconscious about who may be coming in after you. There is no way to quantify that of course, but, just an observation.
 

bluecoconuts

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Not to sound like an idiot but it has seemed to me unisex bathrooms I have used are kept up a little bit better. Maybe that is subconscious about who may be coming in after you. There is no way to quantify that of course, but, just an observation.

I've noticed the same thing, and I figured it was for the same reason. Independently they're dirty as shit, but together everyone is nice and clean.
 

Angry Ram

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'Bout damn time.

I raised my girls as PEOPLE and my eldest daughter is working on her degree in Math, a very male dominated field.

They are not intimidated by traditionally "male" things because we didn't raise them to be afraid of or to shy away from "male" dominated or male oriented things. They enjoy video games and it was my eldest daughter who of all my kids joined me at the Tampa v Rams game and ROD tailgate (we still laugh that while everyone else was drinking, we were guiltily camped at the ribs.../drool #bestribsever) and she would watch football with me.

Since 2009, male viewership has remained flat, but female viewership and the increase in female fans has been responsible for all of the increase since then.

Just think about a toy section. It's two separate toy sections because of gender when kids don't play that way. My Little Pony has a fan following that spans gender and age. And that's just one of a zillion examples. I'll list a bunch if anyone's interested. The list is LOOOOONG. My kids and I just were talking about this topic not too long ago.

Gender assignment for toys is just an outdated notion. Kids will pick the toys they want no matter what signs some corporation puts up.

That it happened in response to a tweet? How else? How else should a corp get that input that gender assignment isn't working? Market study? Survey? Is it because it's a tweet? I don't really care. They got it right and it's a small thing, but not a small thing at the same time.

I think you are missing the point here. No one is saying girls can't do any of those things you mentioned. The tweet you mentioned got overblown because one zealot parent got butthurt, and an entire company had to cave in to maintain their image and cater to that one person. What's next, should I cry foul that some of their backpacks on sale are pink? Should I demand change when I see only black and blue NERF footballs? Oh look, that shirt looks nice. Damnits, its a women's shirt....I DEMAND A MALE SHIRT TO CATER TO MY NEEDS! Doesn't that sound ridiculous to get butthurt over?

I fully agree with you that a kid is gonna want to play with what they want. I just don't understand where and why this ideology that offering a princess LEGO or a kitchen playset will suddenly hold girls back. Maybe the girl WANT to play with that stuff.

And with toy sections, I generally see them categorized by brand and type, not gender:

Toddler/Pre- school

Barbie (and various doll types)

Disney (doesn't every kid love Disney?)

Power Rangers/Ninja Turtles

Marvel/DC

WWE

LEGO (and other LEGO type building sets)

Minecraft/video game related toys

Puzzles/board games
 

Mackeyser

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Okay. You're characterizing this as "one zealot parent got butthurt". Without the tweet, I don't really have any context for what actually happened. I know I've been having this discussion with other parents and online since I got online in the early 90s.

At some toy sections, they are laid out as you say. And that's been the way to go for awhile now. Various toy stores have been doing this for awhile because they got tired of complaints in the stores of certain IPs being in a gendered area, as in My Little Pony in the Girls area or Power Rangers or Pokemon in the Boys area and kids not wanting to be conflicted like that.

But some toy stores still divy things up by gender and it does cause problems. Not just for Bronies (boys who like My Little Pony) or for girls who like Power Rangers, Pokemon, Marvel, DC, Ninja Turtles, etc. because that stuff is normally put in the boys section.

Did the company HAVE to cave? Of course not. No company caves over one tweet. That's absurd. If tweets had that power... rest assured, I'd wield it! I'd actually use my twitter, goldangit! However, like I said, this has been an ongoing discussion amongst parents for the better part of two decades. It's not just one tweet by one parent out of the blue.

Hell, my daughter is 21 and I purposefully stopped taking her into toy stores because the damned stereotyping was suffocating. All girls are pink and frilly. All boys are blue, green or red and masculine....on and on and on. None of the girl toys were thoughtful in the slightest. Most were dolls. It's like most "girl" toys were created to inculcate girls to only be moms. I was like WTF? Sorry. Wasn't having that. If that's what they wanted, great, but they were going to have a choice.

As for "princess Lego" stuff or kitchen toys... /sigh. You ever watch the Food Channel? There are boys and girls competing are making stuff that is pretty dang amazing. So why does EVERY kitchen toy have to be pink? Why should a boy feel bad if he wants to be the next Bobby Flay? Why should a girl feel "out of place" if she wants to be the next GI Joe? Gender oriented stores make kids feel "out of place" when they go to choose what they are truly interested in. And since it's not about taking the toys away, but about simply a different method of orientation that orients based on age and interest rather than gender (aren't we always saying "let them just be kids"), it seems pretty straightforward. And since they sell more doing it, seems pretty silly not to.

The point is that gender stereotyping is just dumb and that DOES hold girls back in real and quantifiable ways. Do some girls like the frilly princess stuff? Sure and there will NEVER be an end to that type of stuff. But, there are LOTS and LOTS of girls who can't stand that stuff and never liked it. Never...ever. But that's the larger issue. (and toys and clothes are different on many levels. That said, when it comes to IP clothes like t-shirts, pajamas, etc, kids want what they're interested in. It's easier for a girl to wear Power Ranger pajamas than a boy to wear My Pretty Pony pajamas for a number of reasons...but that's a different topic)

The direct issue is that stores sell MORE merchandise when they create gender neutral spaces focused around age ranges and various IPs like Lego, Pokemon, My Little Pony, Power Rangers, etc. If it took a tweet for Target or any store to understand that, then so be it. That it took this long for them to understand when so much market analysis has already BEEN DONE on this subject and objective market data is already available...well, then it's embarrassing for them that it took a tweet because they failed at selling stuff which is what they are in business to do.
 

Angry Ram

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Okay. You're characterizing this as "one zealot parent got butthurt". Without the tweet, I don't really have any context for what actually happened. I know I've been having this discussion with other parents and online since I got online in the early 90s.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/09/living/target-girls-building-set-feat/

At some toy sections, they are laid out as you say. And that's been the way to go for awhile now. Various toy stores have been doing this for awhile because they got tired of complaints in the stores of certain IPs being in a gendered area, as in My Little Pony in the Girls area or Power Rangers or Pokemon in the Boys area and kids not wanting to be conflicted like that.

It's been this way as long as I can remember.

Did the company HAVE to cave? Of course not. No company caves over one tweet. That's absurd. If tweets had that power... rest assured, I'd wield it! I'd actually use my twitter, goldangit! However, like I said, this has been an ongoing discussion amongst parents for the better part of two decades. It's not just one tweet by one parent out of the blue.

They did cave. Personally if I were Target, I would've said something like "appreciate the concern, but we're not going to change the sign. We sell merchandise based on demographics" or something similar.

All girls are pink and frilly. All boys are blue, green or red and masculine....on and on and on. None of the girl toys were thoughtful in the slightest. Most were dolls. It's like most "girl" toys were created to inculcate girls to only be moms. I was like WTF? Sorry. Wasn't having that. If that's what they wanted, great, but they were going to have a choice.

Again, it's been that way for a long time. Most girls love that stuff.

As for "princess Lego" stuff or kitchen toys... /sigh. You ever watch the Food Channel? There are boys and girls competing are making stuff that is pretty dang amazing. So why does EVERY kitchen toy have to be pink? Why should a boy feel bad if he wants to be the next Bobby Flay? Why should a girl feel "out of place" if she wants to be the next GI Joe? Gender oriented stores make kids feel "out of place" when they go to choose what they are truly interested in. And since it's not about taking the toys away, but about simply a different method of orientation that orients based on age and interest rather than gender (aren't we always saying "let them just be kids"), it seems pretty straightforward. And since they sell more doing it, seems pretty silly not to.

Hey you don't have to tell me about food. I love it. I'm just saying, a simple toy set isn't going to downgrade gender roles. They're freakin toys.

The point is that gender stereotyping is just dumb and that DOES hold girls back in real and quantifiable ways. Do some girls like the frilly princess stuff? Sure and there will NEVER be an end to that type of stuff. But, there are LOTS and LOTS of girls who can't stand that stuff and never liked it. Never...ever. But that's the larger issue. (and toys and clothes are different on many levels. That said, when it comes to IP clothes like t-shirts, pajamas, etc, kids want what they're interested in. It's easier for a girl to wear Power Ranger pajamas than a boy to wear My Pretty Pony pajamas for a number of reasons...but that's a different topic)

The direct issue is that stores sell MORE merchandise when they create gender neutral spaces focused around age ranges and various IPs like Lego, Pokemon, My Little Pony, Power Rangers, etc. If it took a tweet for Target or any store to understand that, then so be it. That it took this long for them to understand when so much market analysis has already BEEN DONE on this subject and objective market data is already available...well, then it's embarrassing for them that it took a tweet because they failed at selling stuff which is what they are in business to do.

You say a lot of girls don't like that stuff. In my experiences (working in elementary schools) most (all) girls had pink and Disney princess related stuff. Have you truly seen the impact of the Frozen franchise? Holy hell it's insane. Trumps even the Avengers. I've seen some boys that liked it, and guess what nobody cared. Meaning, he wasn't belittled by other kids.

I agree about gender stereotyping being dumb. I disagree that toys do that. I think that's more of an adult issue than a kid issue.
 

Mackeyser

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Well, I would disagree in your phrasing that most girls love that stuff. When any group is inculcated to the degree that young girls are with idealized pink princess images, it's not unexpected that some respond to that. But it's not a universal thing. Other cultures don't have that. If this were a "girl" thing, we'd see it in other cultures and we just don't. It's a assignation. I don't have a massive sample size, but I have 4 kids between 23-16 with social media and the kids actually like to come over and we talk with them. "The Princess thing" has come up more than once and while not everyone hated pink, only a few actually liked the whole princess thing. The problem is that as one young lady put it, "everyone just buys you this stuff. Christmas, birthdays, back to school. One time I wanted a Power Ranger t-shirt. My brothers and I watched them all the time and I liked that there were girls kicking butt. But my mom just yelled at me, so I gave up. Now I wear whatever I want and she hates everything."

That sentiment has been pretty common. Now, maybe we're talking past one another because I'm looking more at middle/high school and you're looking at elementary school, but nothing's changed for my girls or their friends over the years.

As for them being freaking toys, would you have played with a pink football in your neighborhood? Really? Cuz the homophobia among a lot of kids growing up is something else. And the explosion. Of social media and all of this "sharing" has brought to light just how bullied some women have felt since they were little girls to fit into a box. Guys could be anything. But girls?

I'm a former engineer. I built networks. I was offended at that Target sign because toys help kids dream and there are no "girls networks" to be built with pink colors and stickers.

No ones suggesting here at least that the toys change. But good grief, let the kids be kids and pick whichever toys interest them. Frankly, after the last time I was in a Toys r Us to buy a gift card for a birthday party, I figure I'm more worried about the parents. I mean if all the toys were in a huge pile, the kids would still find what they liked. Trust me on that! They know what they want for the most part.

However it used to be or has been, sometimes change is good and this is a good change.