Somebody sell me on Goff

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

Mackeyser

Supernovas are where gold forms; the only place.
Joined
Apr 26, 2013
Messages
14,435
Name
Mack
Good point. Can you guys tell me where I can read more about the Rams' offensive philosophy? All I know is that Rams likes to run a lot. But run/pass distribution can vary with the type of personnel you have, I'm assuming. So is the fact that the Rams is run heavy due to the lack of a quality QB? What does an ideal offense look like?

It used to be a WCO. Now? Closest thing would be a quasi-WCO with all sorts of other elements MacGyver'd in.

Honestly, I don't know what to call it.
 

Mojo Ram

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Feb 3, 2013
Messages
23,280
Name
mojo
Good point. Can you guys tell me where I can read more about the Rams' offensive philosophy? All I know is that Rams likes to run a lot. But run/pass distribution can vary with the type of personnel you have, I'm assuming. So is the fact that the Rams is run heavy due to the lack of a quality QB? What does an ideal offense look like?
Watch this breakdown of what the Rams do. Right now the entire offense starts with Gurley and is intertwined with Tavon Austin which in turn allows big and small opportunities in the play action passing game.
I'm just plain excited to imagine a QB like Wentz being integrated into this attack.




View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2w-SULm2B8&nohtml5=False
 

nighttrain

Legend
Joined
Jan 12, 2013
Messages
9,216
Well, yeah. Part of that fit is the ability to hurt the defense with what I call strategic runs. When we've played pure pocket passers, our D has licked its chops because you know where the QB is gonna be. When playing Seattle, that mobile QB means a spy AND means the very nature of how the DL rushes is altered. Not every D can counter a mobile QB which is why Kaep was so successful even as he had huge holes as a thrower.

With our weapons and our coaching staff and offensive philosophy (if you can call it that... I mean it is offensive and it is a philosophy), I think Wentz fits better.

I think those who are hoping for Goff and looking at how the next HC will use him, I wouldn't hold my breath. Fisher would really have to tank things badly to make that happen.
if anybody can ruin a QB it is Fisher.jmo
train
 

LesBaker

Mr. Savant
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
17,460
Name
Les
It's not a comparison, dude. You've missed the point. Shows like Gruden QB Camp tell you nothing. Don't put stock in it. That's the point of bringing Clausen in here. People made the same assumptions you are now because of Clausen's demeanor. Trying to psychoanalyze a TV show made for entertainment isn't going to produce anything of value.



Cam Newton
Drew Brees
Joe Flacco
Andy Dalton
Derek Carr
Blake Bortles
Ben Roethlisberger
Sam Bradford
Alex Smith
Marcus Mariota

Just a few of the current guys off the top of my head.

I think ARodgers did also.
 

Ram65

Legend
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
9,785
Yea, you must have missed all those parts. Like where Goff and Tony Franklin (his OC) talk about his pre-snap reads. Or when they talk about all the freedom that Goff had at the LOS including the ability to select plays at the LOS, audible, change protections, change routes, etc. Or when they talk about Goff's post-snap reads and progression system. Like when Franklin discusses Goff making high-low reads as part of one of the passing concepts. And, of course, we all know that high-low reads are a staple of the Air Coryell offense. Especially the Air Coryell variant run by Norv Turner.

But no, you're right. I'm sure Goff never had to make pre-snap reads, change the plays pre-snap, make post-snap reads, or go through pro style progressions. Unless we believe Goff and his OC who say that was exactly what he did.
Yea, you must have missed all those parts. Like where Goff and Tony Franklin (his OC) talk about his pre-snap reads. Or when they talk about all the freedom that Goff had at the LOS including the ability to select plays at the LOS, audible, change protections, change routes, etc. Or when they talk about Goff's post-snap reads and progression system. Like when Franklin discusses Goff making high-low reads as part of one of the passing concepts. And, of course, we all know that high-low reads are a staple of the Air Coryell offense. Especially the Air Coryell variant run by Norv Turner.

But no, you're right. I'm sure Goff never had to make pre-snap reads, change the plays pre-snap, make post-snap reads, or go through pro style progressions. Unless we believe Goff and his OC who say that was exactly what he did.

Great post @jrry32. I had read this and see no reason why they (Goff and Franklin) would make any of this up. It's classic QB and Coach speak on football plays.. It's frustrating reading the same misinformation posters keep post to make their case. I don't know how you deal with it.

You can see Goff scanning the field in videos like a Manning and Brady. You can see him shifting in the pocket to get a better throwing lane and buy more time. You can see his quick feet, shorter steps when needed and quick release.

For the most part I have sat back and read all the views on the two QBs. I'm now officially letting you speak for me.

I guess I have to make a post now and then to help out. It's not like you need it. You and Goff are winning this debate!
 

Ramsey

Starter
Joined
Jul 14, 2013
Messages
610
Name
Ramsey
Like a madman, I've been viewing lot's of Goff and Wentz film. The Games not the highlights. I don't pretend to know more than Mackeyser, Jerry, Sneed, or Fisher.

On film I like Goff better. Here are my observations.

1. I feel Goff has better pocket awareness then Wentz, and extends plays far better then Wentz. That's extremely important, and that's what I want out of my QB. Goff seems to have eyes in the back of his head

Goff is more accurate in the short and midrange passing game. Dropping dime after dime.

I used to covet running QB's, but concussions, ripped ACL's, and broken legs changed my perspective. Wentz runs over people like a fullback. I don't want my billion dollar QB running bulldozing his way thru NFL lines and secondary's. I've seen Goff baseball slide multiple times. I have yet to see Wentz slide. But I've only seen 6 Wentz games. Has anyone seen Wentz slide?

We've been talking about how important mental abilities are for the QB position. I feel these guys are close to equal in mental prowess. What we haven't discussed much is...Instincts!

Yes instincts. I like the way Wentz gives his all for the team. That's genetic, instinctual, and hard to breed out of any human being. Wentz runs, and runs well because of his instincts. Goff dodges would be tacklers in the pocket, extends plays, and drops dimes instinctually.

After the 5 year rookie contract is over, which QB would be more likely to give the Rams a Brady like hometown discount? My gut says Wentz. Yet, I hope both Goff and Wentz would cut the Rams slack over the salary cap, so that they might remain Ground Zero of a Ram Dynasty.

And another thing. I saw Goff make the mature decision, multiple times a game, to throw the pass away if there wasn't any one open. Unless you have a Calvin Johnson, jump ball type receiver, sometimes it's better to throw the ball away instead of forcing an interception. That's may be instinctual, that may be mental, or bit of both?

Yes, Wentz has a slightly stronger arm, but I noticed his long bombs tended to float and sail. Anybody else notice that? I could easily imagine multiple interceptions by super-athletic NFL CB's and safeties. With Wentz at QB it would be imperative that we draft one or two tall basketball like WR's who could fight and win the rebound long ball battle. That would be a good thing.

I like that Gof pumps fake passes and looks off receivers far better Wentz
. And Goff is two years younger. So I believe Goff can adapt more quickly then Wentz.

Speaking of pre-snap reads. I was able to predict which side of the field Wentz would throw to 75% of the time, as Wentz tends to swivel his head (pre-snap) first toward the side of the field he throwing to. I pray that can be fixed. An NFL defense would spot that in a nanosecond. It's really important in my old eyes, that a QB uses his young eyes to confuse defenses and not clue them in on the play.

I've seen Goff compared to Bradford on this thread. Because of skinny legs? Goff consistently puts the ball in a place for his receivers to make massive yardage after the catch. That's one thing I had issues with Bradford over. Can you imagine Tavon Austin getting the ball over and over, in a perfect place, for Tavon to do his Tavon Austin thing? Plus Goff has a better touch then Bradford. Oh Bradford may throw the bomb better then Goff, but I still wince at the rockets Bradford would riffle at receivers 5 yards away. Ouch. Drop!

I'm not worried like some of you, that Goff can't overcome the shotgun, Spread offense. After watching Goff's film, I believe Goff will adapt more easily then most spread QB's. Frankly, I had no idea how good Goff was, until I watched a bunch of Film.


Of course I like Wentz's size and pure speed more than Goff. But, that' just a cherry on the cake. Does Wentz take the cake? Maybe? I didn't see what Snead and Fish saw during the private workouts. And that makes me nervous. Besides Goff is only 21. Goff is bound to add 10-15 pounds in the next 3 years.

Another thing... Goff avoids contact more so then Wentz. I wouldn't want to wince every time Wentz got wacked by a NFL linebacker. Everybody was scared that Tavon Austin would be injury prone, but those fears haven't panned out. (Knock on Wood) Injuries are more about avoiding hits, and knowing the better part of valor is to run out of bounds. Or slide.


The comparison that worries me is Brian Quick and private workouts. I don't want Fisher and Snead to pick the winner of the Underwear Olympics, unless Sneadfish privately worked out Wentz and Goff under pressure, as close to game circumstances as the NFL Players Association allows. I wonder what kind of footwork Sneed and Fish saw with Goff under center on 3, 5, 7 step drop backs? If Goff was able to handle the skill-set of under center footwork, then I put the odds at 85%... Goff will be our pick.

Wentz is used to winning and playing with a lead. I never saw Goff panic or waver when losing. He stayed poised, cool and often brought Cal back. I feel like Goff can win in the 4th quarter. I'm clueless about Wentz's play in come from behind situations. Not enough data...

What worries me either way, is that Fisher might value potential over what their peeled back, bald eyes saw on FILM. Film doesn't lie. Yet, I truly trust Sneed and Fisher's eyes, but I'm sick of potential. Legendary Texas Longhorn coach Darryl Royal used to say,

"Potential means the boy hasn't done it yet!"
,

Goff or Wentz? Before watching film I voted Wentz, now I feel more comfortable with Goff. But, since when has comfort factored into Ram Fandom? I'll bleed blue and gold, and cheer my heart out for whomever we choose.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Apr 16, 2016
Messages
25
Name
Troy
It's not out of nowhere. He was talked about quite a bit by draftniks coming into the season and was getting pretty nice attention leading up to his injury. Problem for him was as the hype machines were cranking up, he was wearing a headset. Had the wrist happened last year and he had the big numbers this year, I'm certain the view of Wentz would be different.
Interesting. I didn't hear much about him (I keep up with Virginia Tech and tend to tune a lot of other things out asides from big stories) up until the senior bowl. Nonetheless, if he's our team's guy, I hope he lives up to all the hype.
 

Ram65

Legend
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
9,785
Like a madman, I've been viewing lot's of Goff and Wentz film. The Games not the highlights. I don't pretend to know more than Mackeyser, Jerry, Sneed, or Fisher.

On film I like Goff better. Here are my observations.

1. I feel Goff has better pocket awareness then Wentz, and extends plays far better then Wentz. That's extremely important, and that's what I want out of my QB. Goff seems to have eyes in the back of his head

Goff is more accurate in the short and midrange passing game. Dropping dime after dime.

I used to covet running QB's, but concussions, ripped ACL's, and broken legs changed my perspective. Wentz runs over people like a fullback. I don't want my billion dollar QB running bulldozing his way thru NFL lines and secondary's. I've seen Goff baseball slide multiple times. I have yet to see Wentz slide. But I've only seen 6 Wentz games. Has anyone seen Wentz slide?

We've been talking about how important mental abilities are for the QB position. I feel these guys are close to equal in mental prowess. What we haven't discussed much is...Instincts!

Yes instincts. I like the way Wentz gives his all for the team. That's genetic, instinctual, and hard to breed out of any human being. Wentz runs, and runs well because of his instincts. Goff dodges would be tacklers in the pocket, extends plays, and drops dimes instinctually.

After the 5 year rookie contract is over, which QB would be more likely to give the Rams a Brady like hometown discount? My gut says Wentz. Yet, I hope both Goff and Wentz would cut the Rams slack over the salary cap, so that they might remain Ground Zero of a Ram Dynasty.

And another thing. I saw Goff make the mature decision, multiple times a game, to throw the pass away if there wasn't any one open. Unless you have a Calvin Johnson, jump ball type receiver, sometimes it's better to throw the ball away instead of forcing an interception. That's may be instinctual, that may be mental, or bit of both?

Yes, Wentz has a slightly stronger arm, but I noticed his long bombs tended to float and sail. Anybody else notice that? I could easily imagine multiple interceptions by super-athletic NFL CB's and safeties. With Wentz at QB it would be imperative that we draft one or two tall basketball like WR's who could fight and win the rebound long ball battle. That would be a good thing.

I like that Goff and pumps fake passes and looks off receivers far better Wentz
. And Goff is two years younger. So I believe Goff can adapt more quickly then Wentz.

Speaking of pre-snap reads. I was able to predict which side of the field Wentz would throw to pre snap, as he tends to swivel his head (pre-snap) first toward the side of the field he throwing to. I pray that can be fixed. An NFL defense would spot that in a nanosecond. It's really important in my old eyes, that a QB uses his young eyes to confuse defenses and not clue them in on the play.

I've seen Goff compared to Bradford on this thread. Because of skinny legs? Goff consistently puts the ball in a place for his receivers to make massive yardage after the catch. That's one thing I had issues with Bradford over. Can you imagine Tavon Austin getting the ball over and over, in a perfect place, for Tavon to do his Tavon Austin thing? Plus Goff has a better touch then Bradford. Oh Bradford may throw the bomb better then Goff, but I still wince at the rockets Bradford would riffle at receivers 5 yards away. Ouch. Drop!

I'm not worried like some of you, that Goff can't overcome the shotgun, Spread offense. After watching Goff's film, I believe Goff will adapt more easily then most spread QB's. Frankly, I had no idea how good Goff was, until I watched a bunch of Film.


Of course I like Wentz's size and pure speed more than Goff. But, that' just a cherry on the cake. Does Wentz take the cake? Maybe? I didn't see what Snead and Fish saw during the private workouts. And that makes me nervous. Besides Goff is only 21. Goff is bound to add 10-15 pounds in the next 3 years.

Another thing... Goff avoids contact more so then Wentz. I wouldn't want to wince every time Wentz got wacked by a NFL linebacker. Everybody was scared that Tavon Austin would be injury prone, but those fears haven't panned out. (Knock on Wood) Injuries are more about avoiding hits, and knowing the better part of valor is to run out of bounds. Or slide.


The comparison that worries me is Brian Quick and private workouts. I don't want Fisher and Snead to pick the winner of the Underwear Olympics, unless Sneadfish privately worked out Wentz and Goff under pressure, as close to game circumstances as the NFL Players Association allows. I wonder what kind of footwork Sneed and Fish saw with Goff under center on 3, 5, 7 step drop backs? If Goff was able to handle the skill-set of under center footwork, then I put the odds at 85%... Goff will be our pick.

Wentz is used to winning and playing with a lead. I never saw Goff panic or waver when losing. He stayed poised, cool and often brought Cal back. I feel like Goff can win in the 4th quarter. I'm clueless about Wentz's play in come from behind situations. Not enough data...

What worries me either way, is that Fisher might value potential over film and what their peeled, bald eyes saw. Film doesn't lie. Yet, I trust Sneed and Fisher's eyes, but I'm sick of potential. Legendary Longhorn coach Darryl Royal used to say,

"Potential means the boy hasn't done it yet!"
,

Goff or Wentz? Before watching film I voted Wentz, now I feel more comfortable with Goff. But, since when has comfort factored into Ram Fandom? I'll bleed blue and gold, and cheer my heart out for whomever we choose.

Nice @Ramsey. Yes looks off receiver, baseball slide, avoid contact instincts and oh the accuracy to hit Tavon in stride. I can see Goff in this Rams offense just killin' it. He doesn't even have to throw a lot either. OK you can speak for me too on the GoCar depart.
 

LACHAMP46

A snazzy title
Joined
Jul 21, 2013
Messages
11,735
http://www.dailynews.com/sports/20160416/why-the-la-rams-should-use-no-1-pick-on-carson-wentz
AR-160419541.jpg&maxh=400&maxw=667

The LA Rams are reportedly eyeing North Dakota State quarterback Carson Wentz as a possible No. 1 pick in the NFL Draft. (Photo by Michael Chang/Getty Images)
By Ryan Kartje, rkartje@ocregister.com, @Ryan_Kartje on Twitter

POSTED: 04/16/16


EP-160419541.jpg&maxh=400&maxw=667

North Dakota State quarterback Carson Wentz runs a drill at the NFL football scouting combine on Saturday, Feb. 27, 2016, in Indianapolis. (AP Photo/Darron Cummings)


As any conversation about this 6-foot-5, 235-pound North Dakotan with a howitzer arm, barrel frame and the undeniable look of a franchise quarterback seems to begin these days, let us first address the Bison in the room.

Carson Wentz spent the past five years playing college football in Fargo, N.D. After starting just one season at Bismarck Century High, a late growth spurt left his recruiting profile so low that the popular online scouting services didn’t bother to make a page for him. At North Dakota State, an FCS powerhouse, Wentz didn’t start until his redshirt junior season, and he threw just 612 passes over his entire career – only 28 of which came against FBS opponent. All of these things are true.





Of course, there’s the 28-3 record and the two FCS championships in two seasons and the glowing off-the-field profile there for your consideration. But there’s no avoiding the reality of the situation. Not since 1974 has an NFL team used the top pick on a player below college football’s highest level.

As the Rams wonder whether Wentz or Cal’s Jared Goff would be best to carry a rebranded franchise on their shoulders, this lack of experience against top competition is the specter that hangs over the draft’s most intriguing quarterback prospect.

“I know a lot of people have that question,” Wentz said at the NFL Scouting Combine in February. “I know what I’m capable of.”

Before deciding for yourself, consider one of those 28 throws against an FBS defense. It’s 2014, Wentz’s first start, and the Bison have just crossed midfield on the road against Iowa State. Wentz drops back from under center, fakes a handoff and steps up into a clean pocket. There are some questions about his pocket presence, but at this moment, he is cool in the face of chaos. On a late read, he launches a bomb 40 yards in the air to wideout Zach Vraa, tucking it cleanly between a charging help safety and a cornerback in man coverage.

The throw is a dazzling reminder of why Wentz has risen this far, from small-school nobody to lofty Joe Flacco and Ben Roethlisberger comparisons. “He’s got some seriously great arm talent,” said Randy Hedberg, North Dakota State’s quarterbacks coach.

• COUNTERPOINT: Why the LA Rams should use No. 1 pick on Cal’s Jared Goff

No scout will dispute that. Wentz has a cannon. Next year, his arm might immediately rank among the league’s dozen best.

His tools, from the mammoth frame to his 10-inch hands to the 4.77 40 time, suggest that a potential great quarterback can be molded from the clay. Mike Mayock of NFL Network suggested recently he could have the upside of Tom Brady or Andrew Luck. ESPN’s Jon Gruden sees him as “the most NFL-ready quarterback in years.” But for Hedberg, who has watched him develop up close, the bullish predictions go beyond Wentz’s physical tools.

At North Dakota State, Wentz called his own protections. He changed plays and used hot routes at the line of scrimmage. While Goff’s offense at Cal operated mostly out of shotgun with three- and four-wide sets, North Dakota State’s pro-style setup should mean an easier transition to the NFL for Wentz. His offense was built around a workhorse running back and play-action sets – which Wentz excelled passing and running out of – so he could prove an ideal fit for the Rams’ offensive philosophy, too.

“You watch him at North Dakota State, and you see pro-style reads, left-to-right, high-to-low progressions,” CBS Sports draft analyst Dane Brugler said. “You see him taking 50-50 snaps under center and in shotgun. You see everything you want to see.”

Hedberg takes it a step further.

“Everybody sees his workouts and how he throws the ball,” Hedberg said, “but when you sit in with him on a meeting, he’s really going to blow you away.”

The coach points to one play, his favorite from two years with Wentz.

It’s the national semifinals in 2014, and North Dakota State is trailing with one minute remaining. Wentz catches the snap out of the shotgun, fakes a handoff, stands firm in the pocket for a beat and then uncorks a soaring spiral to the far corner of the end zone, where it falls softly into a freshman wideout’s outstretched arms. The placement is stunning.

“His poise under pressure was unbelievable,” Hedberg said. “The throw was the only possible place he could throw it. It was perfect. That’s one play I’ll never forget.”

This isn’t to say that Wentz is the perfect prospect, per se. His pocket presence is still a work in progress. His footwork will need to be cleaned up. Goff may be more accurate and ready to step in from Day 1, and plenty will question whether either is worth the king’s ransom that the Rams gave up for the No. 1 pick.

“When you’re pick No. 1, philosophically, you’re not picking for what Coach Fisher pencils in on opening day,” Rams GM Les Snead said on Thursday. “It’s really what he pencils in for the next decade.”

And that, precisely, is the principle that could lead the Rams to risk it all on the small-school, North Dakotan with the huge arm and a better-than-you-might-think chance at being the NFL’s next great gunslinger. With all their chips on the table, there’s no better gamble.

HOT READ: CARSON WENTZ

Arm strength: A cannon, with the ability to stretch the field

Accuracy: Often inconsistent, but flashes impressive touch

Speed: Deceptively fast, a serious threat to run off play action

Intelligence: Operated advanced, pro-style offense with multiple reads in college





Leadership: Coaches rave about locker room presence
 
Last edited:

LesBaker

Mr. Savant
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
17,460
Name
Les
Like a madman, I've been viewing lot's of Goff and Wentz film. The Games not the highlights. I don't pretend to know more than Mackeyser, Jerry, Sneed, or Fisher.

On film I like Goff better. Here are my observations.

1. I feel Goff has better pocket awareness then Wentz, and extends plays far better then Wentz. That's extremely important, and that's what I want out of my QB. Goff seems to have eyes in the back of his head

Goff is more accurate in the short and midrange passing game. Dropping dime after dime.

I used to covet running QB's, but concussions, ripped ACL's, and broken legs changed my perspective. Wentz runs over people like a fullback. I don't want my billion dollar QB running bulldozing his way thru NFL lines and secondary's. I've seen Goff baseball slide multiple times. I have yet to see Wentz slide. But I've only seen 6 Wentz games. Has anyone seen Wentz slide?

We've been talking about how important mental abilities are for the QB position. I feel these guys are close to equal in mental prowess. What we haven't discussed much is...Instincts!

Yes instincts. I like the way Wentz gives his all for the team. That's genetic, instinctual, and hard to breed out of any human being. Wentz runs, and runs well because of his instincts. Goff dodges would be tacklers in the pocket, extends plays, and drops dimes instinctually.

After the 5 year rookie contract is over, which QB would be more likely to give the Rams a Brady like hometown discount? My gut says Wentz. Yet, I hope both Goff and Wentz would cut the Rams slack over the salary cap, so that they might remain Ground Zero of a Ram Dynasty.

And another thing. I saw Goff make the mature decision, multiple times a game, to throw the pass away if there wasn't any one open. Unless you have a Calvin Johnson, jump ball type receiver, sometimes it's better to throw the ball away instead of forcing an interception. That's may be instinctual, that may be mental, or bit of both?

Yes, Wentz has a slightly stronger arm, but I noticed his long bombs tended to float and sail. Anybody else notice that? I could easily imagine multiple interceptions by super-athletic NFL CB's and safeties. With Wentz at QB it would be imperative that we draft one or two tall basketball like WR's who could fight and win the rebound long ball battle. That would be a good thing.

I like that Gof pumps fake passes and looks off receivers far better Wentz
. And Goff is two years younger. So I believe Goff can adapt more quickly then Wentz.

Speaking of pre-snap reads. I was able to predict which side of the field Wentz would throw to 75% of the time, as Wentz tends to swivel his head (pre-snap) first toward the side of the field he throwing to. I pray that can be fixed. An NFL defense would spot that in a nanosecond. It's really important in my old eyes, that a QB uses his young eyes to confuse defenses and not clue them in on the play.

I've seen Goff compared to Bradford on this thread. Because of skinny legs? Goff consistently puts the ball in a place for his receivers to make massive yardage after the catch. That's one thing I had issues with Bradford over. Can you imagine Tavon Austin getting the ball over and over, in a perfect place, for Tavon to do his Tavon Austin thing? Plus Goff has a better touch then Bradford. Oh Bradford may throw the bomb better then Goff, but I still wince at the rockets Bradford would riffle at receivers 5 yards away. Ouch. Drop!

I'm not worried like some of you, that Goff can't overcome the shotgun, Spread offense. After watching Goff's film, I believe Goff will adapt more easily then most spread QB's. Frankly, I had no idea how good Goff was, until I watched a bunch of Film.


Of course I like Wentz's size and pure speed more than Goff. But, that' just a cherry on the cake. Does Wentz take the cake? Maybe? I didn't see what Snead and Fish saw during the private workouts. And that makes me nervous. Besides Goff is only 21. Goff is bound to add 10-15 pounds in the next 3 years.

Another thing... Goff avoids contact more so then Wentz. I wouldn't want to wince every time Wentz got wacked by a NFL linebacker. Everybody was scared that Tavon Austin would be injury prone, but those fears haven't panned out. (Knock on Wood) Injuries are more about avoiding hits, and knowing the better part of valor is to run out of bounds. Or slide.


The comparison that worries me is Brian Quick and private workouts. I don't want Fisher and Snead to pick the winner of the Underwear Olympics, unless Sneadfish privately worked out Wentz and Goff under pressure, as close to game circumstances as the NFL Players Association allows. I wonder what kind of footwork Sneed and Fish saw with Goff under center on 3, 5, 7 step drop backs? If Goff was able to handle the skill-set of under center footwork, then I put the odds at 85%... Goff will be our pick.

Wentz is used to winning and playing with a lead. I never saw Goff panic or waver when losing. He stayed poised, cool and often brought Cal back. I feel like Goff can win in the 4th quarter. I'm clueless about Wentz's play in come from behind situations. Not enough data...

What worries me either way, is that Fisher might value potential over what their peeled back, bald eyes saw on FILM. Film doesn't lie. Yet, I truly trust Sneed and Fisher's eyes, but I'm sick of potential. Legendary Texas Longhorn coach Darryl Royal used to say,

"Potential means the boy hasn't done it yet!"
,

Goff or Wentz? Before watching film I voted Wentz, now I feel more comfortable with Goff. But, since when has comfort factored into Ram Fandom? I'll bleed blue and gold, and cheer my heart out for whomever we choose.

Ramsey with another awesome post.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,936
Great post @jrry32. I had read this and see no reason why they (Goff and Franklin) would make any of this up. It's classic QB and Coach speak on football plays.. It's frustrating reading the same misinformation posters keep post to make their case. I don't know how you deal with it.

You can see Goff scanning the field in videos like a Manning and Brady. You can see him shifting in the pocket to get a better throwing lane and buy more time. You can see his quick feet, shorter steps when needed and quick release.

For the most part I have sat back and read all the views on the two QBs. I'm now officially letting you speak for me.

I guess I have to make a post now and then to help out. It's not like you need it. You and Goff are winning this debate!

Thanks, 65. But just to clarify, I don't think there is truly winning this debate. I think both Goff and Wentz are the right choices. It's a win-win and we can't go wrong. I prefer Goff. But a person isn't wrong to prefer Wentz. They simply value certain attributes differently than I do.

I just want to clear up some misconceptions about Goff that I've seen a lot of.
 

yrba1

Mild-mannered Rams fan
Joined
Jul 8, 2014
Messages
5,112
@jrry32 How does Goff compare to Luck as prospects with regards to pocket presence and mental acuity? I know damn well that Luck is the better prospect overall.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,936
Like a madman, I've been viewing lot's of Goff and Wentz film. The Games not the highlights. I don't pretend to know more than Mackeyser, Jerry, Sneed, or Fisher.

On film I like Goff better. Here are my observations.

1. I feel Goff has better pocket awareness then Wentz, and extends plays far better then Wentz. That's extremely important, and that's what I want out of my QB. Goff seems to have eyes in the back of his head

Goff is more accurate in the short and midrange passing game. Dropping dime after dime.

I used to covet running QB's, but concussions, ripped ACL's, and broken legs changed my perspective. Wentz runs over people like a fullback. I don't want my billion dollar QB running bulldozing his way thru NFL lines and secondary's. I've seen Goff baseball slide multiple times. I have yet to see Wentz slide. But I've only seen 6 Wentz games. Has anyone seen Wentz slide?

We've been talking about how important mental abilities are for the QB position. I feel these guys are close to equal in mental prowess. What we haven't discussed much is...Instincts!

Yes instincts. I like the way Wentz gives his all for the team. That's genetic, instinctual, and hard to breed out of any human being. Wentz runs, and runs well because of his instincts. Goff dodges would be tacklers in the pocket, extends plays, and drops dimes instinctually.

After the 5 year rookie contract is over, which QB would be more likely to give the Rams a Brady like hometown discount? My gut says Wentz. Yet, I hope both Goff and Wentz would cut the Rams slack over the salary cap, so that they might remain Ground Zero of a Ram Dynasty.

And another thing. I saw Goff make the mature decision, multiple times a game, to throw the pass away if there wasn't any one open. Unless you have a Calvin Johnson, jump ball type receiver, sometimes it's better to throw the ball away instead of forcing an interception. That's may be instinctual, that may be mental, or bit of both?

Yes, Wentz has a slightly stronger arm, but I noticed his long bombs tended to float and sail. Anybody else notice that? I could easily imagine multiple interceptions by super-athletic NFL CB's and safeties. With Wentz at QB it would be imperative that we draft one or two tall basketball like WR's who could fight and win the rebound long ball battle. That would be a good thing.

I like that Gof pumps fake passes and looks off receivers far better Wentz
. And Goff is two years younger. So I believe Goff can adapt more quickly then Wentz.

Speaking of pre-snap reads. I was able to predict which side of the field Wentz would throw to 75% of the time, as Wentz tends to swivel his head (pre-snap) first toward the side of the field he throwing to. I pray that can be fixed. An NFL defense would spot that in a nanosecond. It's really important in my old eyes, that a QB uses his young eyes to confuse defenses and not clue them in on the play.

I've seen Goff compared to Bradford on this thread. Because of skinny legs? Goff consistently puts the ball in a place for his receivers to make massive yardage after the catch. That's one thing I had issues with Bradford over. Can you imagine Tavon Austin getting the ball over and over, in a perfect place, for Tavon to do his Tavon Austin thing? Plus Goff has a better touch then Bradford. Oh Bradford may throw the bomb better then Goff, but I still wince at the rockets Bradford would riffle at receivers 5 yards away. Ouch. Drop!

I'm not worried like some of you, that Goff can't overcome the shotgun, Spread offense. After watching Goff's film, I believe Goff will adapt more easily then most spread QB's. Frankly, I had no idea how good Goff was, until I watched a bunch of Film.


Of course I like Wentz's size and pure speed more than Goff. But, that' just a cherry on the cake. Does Wentz take the cake? Maybe? I didn't see what Snead and Fish saw during the private workouts. And that makes me nervous. Besides Goff is only 21. Goff is bound to add 10-15 pounds in the next 3 years.

Another thing... Goff avoids contact more so then Wentz. I wouldn't want to wince every time Wentz got wacked by a NFL linebacker. Everybody was scared that Tavon Austin would be injury prone, but those fears haven't panned out. (Knock on Wood) Injuries are more about avoiding hits, and knowing the better part of valor is to run out of bounds. Or slide.


The comparison that worries me is Brian Quick and private workouts. I don't want Fisher and Snead to pick the winner of the Underwear Olympics, unless Sneadfish privately worked out Wentz and Goff under pressure, as close to game circumstances as the NFL Players Association allows. I wonder what kind of footwork Sneed and Fish saw with Goff under center on 3, 5, 7 step drop backs? If Goff was able to handle the skill-set of under center footwork, then I put the odds at 85%... Goff will be our pick.

Wentz is used to winning and playing with a lead. I never saw Goff panic or waver when losing. He stayed poised, cool and often brought Cal back. I feel like Goff can win in the 4th quarter. I'm clueless about Wentz's play in come from behind situations. Not enough data...

What worries me either way, is that Fisher might value potential over what their peeled back, bald eyes saw on FILM. Film doesn't lie. Yet, I truly trust Sneed and Fisher's eyes, but I'm sick of potential. Legendary Texas Longhorn coach Darryl Royal used to say,

"Potential means the boy hasn't done it yet!"
,

Goff or Wentz? Before watching film I voted Wentz, now I feel more comfortable with Goff. But, since when has comfort factored into Ram Fandom? I'll bleed blue and gold, and cheer my heart out for whomever we choose.

Great post, Ramsey. Like how you explained your rationale in a very comprehensive and detailed way. Just to address a couple points:
Yes, Wentz has a slightly stronger arm, but I noticed his long bombs tended to float and sail. Anybody else notice that? I could easily imagine multiple interceptions by super-athletic NFL CB's and safeties. With Wentz at QB it would be imperative that we draft one or two tall basketball like WR's who could fight and win the rebound long ball battle. That would be a good thing.

This is an astute observation. I've seen Wentz unleashed some absolute rockets deep. The problem is that his WRs at NDSU were very slow and not athletic. So a lot of times, he would put a lot of air under the ball to give his WRs a chance. They weren't guy that ran by defenders deep so it was hard for him to throw frozen ropes. By arcing it, he gave them a chance to adjust to the ball which is where they best shined.

I've seen the kid throw the ball 55 yards on a frozen rope. He's got a ridiculous arm. It's Cam Newton/Colin Kaepernick/Jay Cutler caliber. Give him speedy WRs and he'll show it off.

Wentz is used to winning and playing with a lead. I never saw Goff panic or waver when losing. He stayed poised, cool and often brought Cal back. I feel like Goff can win in the 4th quarter. I'm clueless about Wentz's play in come from behind situations. Not enough data...

I gotta give Wentz a pretty sizable edge here. In 2014, Wentz got the ball back down 4 in the FCS National Championship with 1:38 remaining. He drove NDSU 78 yards down the field and scored a TD (5 yard rush) with 37 seconds left to put them ahead 29-27. That ended up being the final score. He also threw the game winning TD against Northern Iowa in 2015 with 35 seconds left as part of a 79 yard TD drive after getting the ball down 4 with 2:30 left. Wentz also threw the game winning TD with 54 seconds left against South Dakota State in the 2014 FCS Playoffs 2nd Round game. He got the ball back down 4 points with 3:12 left and drove 76 yards.

Basically, this kid helped his team score game winning TDs with less than a minute left in the National Championship, Playoffs, and in a key rivalry game. He's a guy who will come through in crunch time. Goff is a bigger question mark in that regard.
 

jrry32

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
29,936
@jrry32 How does Goff compare to Luck as prospects with regards to pocket presence and mental acuity? I know damn well that Luck is the better prospect overall.

Can't speak to mental acuity because there's so much that goes into that. But Goff is every bit as good as Luck in terms of pocket presence, movement, and poise under pressure. His mental processing speed is also every bit as good imo. I'd say Goff has better feet than Luck. His are ridiculously quick.

Luck's accuracy was better. Luck was more athletic and bigger. They're similar in arm strength although I think Goff might end up having the edge there if he puts on weight. Luck was also coming out of a pro style offense which gives him an obvious edge.
 

Ram65

Legend
Joined
Apr 30, 2015
Messages
9,785
Thanks, 65. But just to clarify, I don't think there is truly winning this debate. I think both Goff and Wentz are the right choices. It's a win-win and we can't go wrong. I prefer Goff. But a person isn't wrong to prefer Wentz. They simply value certain attributes differently than I do.

I just want to clear up some misconceptions about Goff that I've seen a lot of.

Fair enough jrry32. I'm happy with either player too. I don't think posters are wrong for preferring Wentz. Some posters have misconceptions as well as not giving enough (As I see it) value to what Goff brings to the table. Let's hope the Rams are the winners after the #1 selection.
 

Dan Poplawski

Rookie
Joined
Dec 17, 2015
Messages
248
Name
Dan Poplawski
Watching these 2 kids with John Grugen, I am sold on Goff.
 

Ramhusker

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jul 15, 2010
Messages
14,462
Name
Bo Bowen
Can't speak to mental acuity because there's so much that goes into that. But Goff is every bit as good as Luck in terms of pocket presence, movement, and poise under pressure. His mental processing speed is also every bit as good imo. I'd say Goff has better feet than Luck. His are ridiculously quick.

Luck's accuracy was better. Luck was more athletic and bigger. They're similar in arm strength although I think Goff might end up having the edge there if he puts on weight. Luck was also coming out of a pro style offense which gives him an obvious edge.
I think the weight thing is probably overstated. When Wentz was 22, he weighed in only 7 pounds more than Goff does now and that's with the extra inch of height. Who's to say Goff won't weigh 230 when he's 24?
 

OC--LeftCoast

Agent Provocateur
Joined
Nov 24, 2012
Messages
3,707
Name
Greg
Had to sit behind a kid that had won 2 or 3 FCS championships....in a row....What coach sits that guy?


Okay senor Champ, but I gotta ask, just where is that QB he had to sit behind today?

Gonna have to drop my mic and bee bop off the stage now, good buddy:sneaky: