Should The St. Louis Rams Fire Gregg Williams?

[Memento]

We all read Matt Bowen's article; there was nothing in it that suggested that dirty hits were a part of Williams' bounty program in DC. Big hits? Forced fumbles? Picks? Of course, but you're talking about a team that had Sean Taylor as the defensive centerpiece when Williams was coaching. There's going to be big hits and the like. It doesn't mean that they're dirty.

The hits didn't have to be dirty. In fact that's not even the charge against him.

The fact that there was off-record incentive payoffs is bad enough--it's illegal under league rules and also violates the CBA.

That fact that there were such payments specifically for hurting players makes it even worse.

Bounties are illegal in the NFL.

It was the players and the GM who paid for the dirty hits. Williams may have contributed to the pot, but there's nothing to suggest that Williams paid for the illegal hits. Why stigmatize him for the total lack of control in New Orleans? Why go after him alone for something that was primarily funded by the players?

And how do you explain Buffalo and Jacksonville? We're not hearing anything about bounties for those two teams; in fact, a retired offensive guard came out and denied that any sort of bounty was taking place in Buffalo. Why DC and New Orleans and not Jacksonville or Buffalo? Williams had the same amount of success in all of those cities. What changed in DC and New Orleans? Maybe it's because both of the former franchises are dysfunctional from the top down?

I honestly don't care if it's against the CBA or league rules. You've had bounties taking place since football began, and I personally don't see anything wrong with them if they're not trying to hurt other players. You can't possibly tell me that Goodell didn't know that this was going on when he took the job. Why is he cracking down on it now? You sure as hell didn't see him going after this when he first started the job.

Williams is a damn good defensive coordinator, and I would hate to see him get fired or be forced to resign because of something like this.

 

[-X-]

We all read Matt Bowen's article; there was nothing in it that suggested that dirty hits were a part of Williams' bounty program in DC. Big hits? Forced fumbles? Picks? Of course, but you're talking about a team that had Sean Taylor as the defensive centerpiece when Williams was coaching. There's going to be big hits and the like. It doesn't mean that they're dirty.

The hits didn't have to be dirty. In fact that's not even the charge against him.

The fact that there was off-record incentive payoffs is bad enough--it's illegal under league rules and also violates the CBA.

That fact that there were such payments specifically for hurting players makes it even worse.

Bounties are illegal in the NFL.

It was the players and the GM who paid for the dirty hits. Williams may have contributed to the pot, but there's nothing to suggest that Williams paid for the illegal hits. Why stigmatize him for the total lack of control in New Orleans? Why go after him alone for something that was primarily funded by the players?

And how do you explain Buffalo and Jacksonville? We're not hearing anything about bounties for those two teams; in fact, a retired offensive guard came out and denied that any sort of bounty was taking place in Buffalo. Why DC and New Orleans and not Jacksonville or Buffalo? Williams had the same amount of success in all of those cities. What changed in DC and New Orleans? Maybe it's because both of the former franchises are dysfunctional from the top down?

I honestly don't care if it's against the CBA or league rules. You've had bounties taking place since football began, and I personally don't see anything wrong with them if they're not trying to hurt other players. You can't possibly tell me that Goodell didn't know that this was going on when he took the job. Why is he cracking down on it now? You sure as hell didn't see him going after this when he first started the job.

Williams is a damn good defensive coordinator, and I would hate to see him get fired or be forced to resign because of something like this.

Well, Coy Wire said there was a similar program in Buffalo

"That's real," Wire said by phone from Atlanta. "That happened in Buffalo.

"There were rewards. There never was a point where cash was handed out in front of the team. But surely, you were going to be rewarded. When somebody made a big hit that hurt an opponent, it was commended and encouraged."

"What Williams did was wrong, and I know that now," Wire said. "My sense of normalcy was warped. I thought what I was doing was right."

And in Washington, Blanche had to eliminate the program that Williams installed there.

Greg Blache arrived as defensive line coach in Washington in 2004, the same year Williams arrived as the defensive coordinator and assistant head coach. When Williams left the Redskins after the 2007 season, Blache was promoted to defensive coordinator. And Mike Wise of the Washington Post reports that Blache immediately ended the system of bounties that had been part of the defense during Williams’ four years running things.

I'm not trying to hang Williams out to dry or anything here either. The information is all over the place, and by sifting through it all, it seems like he took it wherever he went. I think he'd be fine as a coordinator here as well (with the proper players), but it's evident this wasn't an isolated incident with him in New Orleans. Or anything new for him.

 

[Memento]

We all read Matt Bowen's article; there was nothing in it that suggested that dirty hits were a part of Williams' bounty program in DC. Big hits? Forced fumbles? Picks? Of course, but you're talking about a team that had Sean Taylor as the defensive centerpiece when Williams was coaching. There's going to be big hits and the like. It doesn't mean that they're dirty.

The hits didn't have to be dirty. In fact that's not even the charge against him.

The fact that there was off-record incentive payoffs is bad enough--it's illegal under league rules and also violates the CBA.

That fact that there were such payments specifically for hurting players makes it even worse.

Bounties are illegal in the NFL.

It was the players and the GM who paid for the dirty hits. Williams may have contributed to the pot, but there's nothing to suggest that Williams paid for the illegal hits. Why stigmatize him for the total lack of control in New Orleans? Why go after him alone for something that was primarily funded by the players?

And how do you explain Buffalo and Jacksonville? We're not hearing anything about bounties for those two teams; in fact, a retired offensive guard came out and denied that any sort of bounty was taking place in Buffalo. Why DC and New Orleans and not Jacksonville or Buffalo? Williams had the same amount of success in all of those cities. What changed in DC and New Orleans? Maybe it's because both of the former franchises are dysfunctional from the top down?

I honestly don't care if it's against the CBA or league rules. You've had bounties taking place since football began, and I personally don't see anything wrong with them if they're not trying to hurt other players. You can't possibly tell me that Goodell didn't know that this was going on when he took the job. Why is he cracking down on it now? You sure as hell didn't see him going after this when he first started the job.

Williams is a damn good defensive coordinator, and I would hate to see him get fired or be forced to resign because of something like this.

Well, Coy Wire said there was a similar program in Buffalo

"That's real," Wire said by phone from Atlanta. "That happened in Buffalo.

"There were rewards. There never was a point where cash was handed out in front of the team. But surely, you were going to be rewarded. When somebody made a big hit that hurt an opponent, it was commended and encouraged."

"What Williams did was wrong, and I know that now," Wire said. "My sense of normalcy was warped. I thought what I was doing was right."

And in Washington, Blanche had to eliminate the program that Williams installed there.

Greg Blache arrived as defensive line coach in Washington in 2004, the same year Williams arrived as the defensive coordinator and assistant head coach. When Williams left the Redskins after the 2007 season, Blache was promoted to defensive coordinator. And Mike Wise of the Washington Post reports that Blache immediately ended the system of bounties that had been part of the defense during Williams’ four years running things.

I'm not trying to hang Williams out to dry or anything here either. The information is all over the place, and by sifting through it all, it seems like he took it wherever he went. I think he'd be fine as a coordinator here as well (with the proper players), but it's evident this wasn't an isolated incident with him in New Orleans. Or anything new for him.

And Ruben Brown specifically said that there wasn't a bounty program in Buffalo. Brown's a retired offensive guard who's made millions. What possible reason could he have to lie about Buffalo not having a bounty program?

Look, I'm not at all saying that this was an isolated incident. Washington and New Orleans obviously had systems like that. But why aren't teams like Jacksonville coming out with this? Remember, Williams also stopped there before he went to New Orleans. Why haven't we heard anything out of Jacksonville?

 

[-X-]

And Ruben Brown specifically said that there wasn't a bounty program in Buffalo. Brown's a retired offensive guard who's made millions. What possible reason could he have to lie about Buffalo not having a bounty program?

Look, I'm not at all saying that this was an isolated incident. Washington and New Orleans obviously had systems like that. But why aren't teams like Jacksonville coming out with this? Remember, Williams also stopped there before he went to New Orleans. Why haven't we heard anything out of Jacksonville?

Yeah, I know about Brown. I have no idea why there are conflicting stories. And I also have no idea why he didn't implement that in his one year in Jacksonville. Maybe Del Rio knew about it and wanted nothing to do with it. PURE speculation on my part, obviously. I just don't know.

We all have our opinions about this, and it seems like the majority think it's much ado about nothing. It happens everywhere, it's been going on forever, illegal hits don't seem to be the focus of the bounty system, the Rams are going to have 'swagger', etc. I don't have a problem with it, per se'. The ONLY objection I would have would be if illegal hits were encouraged, and that doesn't appear to be the case.

Per your original point, though, I have no idea why it's all happening now. There are a ton of theories on that as well. But they're only theories. It's been investigated long enough to compile 50,000 pages on it, and they had to release it sometime. That's really all I see going on. If they waited until after Williams got involved with the defensive players, that would be worse for the Rams. If they waited until before the Rams hired him, then it would appear as though the NFL was trying to screw the Rams. I think it just happened when it happened. Once the investigation was completed, they let it out. Again, nothing but speculation on my part.

 

[Warner4Prez]

FWIW, Fred Smoot came out today and denied that the coaching staff had anything to do with bounties in Washington DC and that it was all player organized and maintained.

If it's true that the guy was paying players for 'kill shots' or whatever the hell you wanna call it. Then yeah, it's probably best that they part ways, but if the extent of Williams' involvement was getting guys to perform better in the ways of sacks/turnovers and everything else was sponsored by players...that's a different animal.
If Vilma is the one that fronted 10k to knock Favre out and GW didn't know/advocate that, I think he should do his time and return to the team. Maybe it's naive of me to believe that such things can go on behind a coach's back.

 

[Stranger]

I'm starting to wonder if this media focus on Williams is part of a squeeze play, putting pressure on Williams to reveal information on who else was involved. Seems that there might be much more to the story than just Williams and a few coaches, so it could make sense that all this media exposure BEFORE the investigation is concluded is just a mechanism for scattering the rats & cockroaches. We shall see, I guess

 

[RamFan503]

Yeah look - I think I'll wait until I see a few things. One is that Williams actually paid or advocated paying for taking a player out - not solid shots or interceptions, forced fumbles and the like. Two, evidence to the fact. Three, what the other 45,000 pages said.

I would say he needs to go if - IF - he paid to take out players. However, I am not going to go all goody two shoes and say because it was against NFL rules for violating the salary cap, he should go. Sorry but fuck that. Go after the teams that allowed it and you will correct the problem. Hit the beloved Aints with loss of draft picks and fines. If Williams sought injuries with payments, get rid of him from the NFL PERIOD! Don't pull this bullshit where he gets suspended for a year. Yeah he'd lose some money but that's a year out of his career and it only hurts one team. You want to make an example? Pete Rose the dude. You want to make a show pony out of him? I'm not on board.

If this thing boils down to him violating the salary cap and that gets him suspended, I will be pissed. Yeah, I know... you wouldn't condone your child shoplifting... PLEASE. That's just horse shit and a major red herring. If that is the NFL version of solving the problem, they have much bigger issues.

To me this should all come down to if he paid to have players injured. If not, fine the Aints for allowing it, maybe take away a few draft picks, and MOVE ON. The loss of draft picks will be a big penalty that all will see and the offending TEAM will endure (it is a team game - right?). Williams being suspended will be lost in last week's headlines.

 

[Stranger]

I have no idea what the NFL is going to do if it gets out that outsiders were involved (other than Michael Ornstein), because then we're talking about people trying to manipulate spreads and/or games. I don't think Vegas would look too kindly on game fixing, at least fixing that loses them money. My guess is this is what NFL Security is either trying to figure out now, or trying to figure out how to cover up.

 

[Stranger]

Also, just thinking about this a little more (again, we still really don't know the facts yet), but what cause would the Rams have to fire Williams? I mean, really? Did he lie during the interview process, or did he lie to the Rams? What exactly did he DO TO THE RAMS to INJURE the Rams? Yeah, he supposedly did something while at a previous employers that he may be penalized for, but isn't his contract BETWEEN William AND THE Rams? So, what's the Rams' cause of termination here? I'm not talking philosophical now, I'm talkiing legal.

 

[-X-]

Also, just thinking about this a little more (again, we still really don't know the facts yet), but what cause would the Rams have to fire Williams? I mean, really? Did he lie during the interview process, or did he lie to the Rams? What exactly did he DO TO THE RAMS to INJURE the Rams? Yeah, he supposedly did something while at a previous employers that he may be penalized for, but isn't his contract BETWEEN William AND THE Rams? So, what's the Rams' cause of termination here? I'm not talking philosophical now, I'm talkiing legal.

I don't think he could be fired for cause. Like you said, he didn't do anything to the Rams that we know of. And I'm pretty sure the interview process didn't involve asking about bounties, as this wasn't brought to light at the time of his hiring.

 

[RamFan503]

Also, just thinking about this a little more (again, we still really don't know the facts yet), but what cause would the Rams have to fire Williams? I mean, really? Did he lie during the interview process, or did he lie to the Rams? What exactly did he DO TO THE RAMS to INJURE the Rams? Yeah, he supposedly did something while at a previous employers that he may be penalized for, but isn't his contract BETWEEN William AND THE Rams? So, what's the Rams' cause of termination here? I'm not talking philosophical now, I'm talkiing legal.

I don't think he could be fired for cause. Like you said, he didn't do anything to the Rams that we know of. And I'm pretty sure the interview process didn't involve asking about bounties, as this wasn't brought to light at the time of his hiring.

Actually, I believe he could easily be fired for cause if he is suspended for activities considered detrimental to the NFL and the Rams and quite likely for simply being suspended. Most employment contracts even on a fairly basic level have clauses in them that if for some reason not of the employer's fault, the employee is unable to fulfill his duties, his contract may be terminated at the discretion of the employer. Also, there are often conduct clauses for people who might be considered public figures or representatives of the company. About the only loophole on the first one if I recall right is if you hired a military reservist (correct term?).

P.S. - I'm not an attorney. I only play one on ROD.

 

[-X-]

Also, just thinking about this a little more (again, we still really don't know the facts yet), but what cause would the Rams have to fire Williams? I mean, really? Did he lie during the interview process, or did he lie to the Rams? What exactly did he DO TO THE RAMS to INJURE the Rams? Yeah, he supposedly did something while at a previous employers that he may be penalized for, but isn't his contract BETWEEN William AND THE Rams? So, what's the Rams' cause of termination here? I'm not talking philosophical now, I'm talkiing legal.

I don't think he could be fired for cause. Like you said, he didn't do anything to the Rams that we know of. And I'm pretty sure the interview process didn't involve asking about bounties, as this wasn't brought to light at the time of his hiring.

Actually, I believe he could easily be fired for cause if he is suspended for activities considered detrimental to the NFL and the Rams and quite likely for simply being suspended. Most employment contracts even on a fairly basic level have clauses in them that if for some reason not of the employer's fault, the employee is unable to fulfill his duties, his contract may be terminated at the discretion of the employer. Also, there are often conduct clauses for people who might be considered public figures or representatives of the company. About the only loophole on the first one if I recall right is if you hired a military reservist (correct term?).

P.S. - I'm not an attorney. I only play one on ROD.

Yeah, in that capacity you're right. I was only thinking on the level of his involvement with the Rams. I just didn't see any reason why they would fire him for something he did *to them* or something he withheld from them during the interview process. Surely Fisher knows PLENTY about Williams, and took all of it into account when he hired him, but ultimately he's not the one signing the checks.

 

[RamFan503]

I hope this thing is way over blown. I don't want the Rams to have to make any changes right now. I'd really like to see this staff and what it can do. Unfortunately, if it comes down to it, we must move on.

As I said before, if they suspend Williams for cap violations or because the bounty system itself is against the rules, I will be pissed. If that is the case, I actually hope the Rams mount an offensive to remove the suspension. I get so tired of this scapegoat mentality. Go after the franchises that allowed it and you will stop it.

 

[Warner4Prez]

I hope this thing is way over blown. I don't want the Rams to have to make any changes right now. I'd really like to see this staff and what it can do. Unfortunately, if it comes down to it, we must move on.

As I said before, if they suspend Williams for cap violations or because the bounty system itself is against the rules, I will be pissed. If that is the case, I actually hope the Rams mount an offensive to remove the suspension. I get so tired of this scapegoat mentality. Go after the franchises that allowed it and you will stop it.

I'm with ya man. I think Williams is being made out to be the boogeyman right now though to help the entire NFL save a little face. There seems to have been far more players to back up the notion that Williams was just trying to motivate big plays rather than injuries. Look at some of the stuff PFT runs from time to time. They try and decry guys like Darren Sharper, Fred Smoot and others as liars and bad people for saying so.