Right now the Rams have a problem in PAYING the wrong players

[Merlin]

Not even going to get into Tavon here. But Tree in particular demonstrates that they locked up yet another guy who cannot produce in their scheme, and then had to orchestrate a trade to clean up the mess.

Meanwhile guys who DID excel in their scheme are yet to be signed to include Joyner needing to be tagged. And while I hear a lot of "relax man, the period just started" comments from other posters, there is a history with the secondary in particular where this organization has bled good talent, so it's not a reach to be concerned that it might continue.

I am not trying to light this front office on fire here. I have faith in them. But RIGHT NOW they have a pretty poor track record in terms of retaining their own. And this is something I genuinely hope turns around here real soon.

 

[Billy Baroo]

This “organization” is barely a year old. Fisher called the shots previously.

 

[fearsomefour]

Here is the problem with contracts....you are either rewarding past production and health with zero guarantee of continued production, or, you are rewarding projected growth and production with no guarantee of that coming to fruition.
Ogletree and Austin are the projection model. Whitworth is the past performance model.
Both has flaws and risks.
Resigning a guy like Longacre requires the projection model....he was solid but not great and got injured....Donald the past performance model, he has been dominant and healthy.
Neither is assured future health or success.
This is what makes signing guys like Longacre to deals so important.
The Austin deal never made sense.
The Ogletree deal did.
Sometimes it works out sometimes it doesn't.
Ogletree may have still worked out if he stayed or switched to OLB.

 

[fearsomefour]

This “organization” is barely a year old. Fisher called the shots previously.

Demond and Snead had major input before.
No free passes.
I like where tbey are going. The only question mark is Ogletree but way too soon to pass judgement on that.

 

[fearsomefour]

Not even going to get into Tavon here. But Tree in particular demonstrates that they locked up yet another guy who cannot produce in their scheme, and then had to orchestrate a trade to clean up the mess.

Meanwhile guys who DID excel in their scheme are yet to be signed to include Joyner needing to be tagged. And while I hear a lot of "relax man, the period just started" comments from other posters, there is a history with the secondary in particular where this organization has bled good talent, so it's not a reach to be concerned that it might continue.

I am not trying to light this front office on fire here. I have faith in them. But RIGHT NOW they have a pretty poor track record in terms of retaining their own. And this is something I genuinely hope turns around here real soon.

In terms of the secondary they haven't overpaid (their judgement) to keep guys but they have done a good job replacing them.
Keeping Jenkins and McLeod would have been great but not affordable with the moves that were made to turn the O around.
It's a tough balancing act.

 

[Billy Baroo]

Demond and Snead had major input before.
No free passes.
I like where tbey are going. The only question mark is Ogletree but way too soon to pass judgement on that.

Demoff’s a glorified banker that’s told who to sign. Fisher was dictator.

 

[FrantikRam]

While I do agree with you, it can't be easy.

Take Ogletree. He probably didn't know how he would play in Wade's scheme, but based on prior play he earned $10 million per year.

Now Joyner. Probably didn't know how he would play in Wade's scheme, but based on prior play he earned $3-5 million per year.

Assuming the Rams talked to both, which we don't know, it's easy to see why Tree would sign an extension and Joyner would not. Basically bet on himself and won, but it was an easy decision.

 

[fearsomefour]

Demoff’s a glorified banker that’s told who to sign. Fisher was dictator.

Demoff is the cap/money guy which makes him an important part of the team. He isent determining what players they want or fit scheme, but, he would have to be involved with what players they get in terms of FA anyway.
Don't know if Fisher was a dictator or not.
Don't know how much sway his coaches, scouts or Snead had or didn't have.

 

[Akrasian]

Demoff is the cap/money guy which makes him an important part of the team. He isent determining what players they want or fit scheme, but, he would have to be involved with what players they get in terms of FA anyway.

And note that when the Rams signed Ogletree, it was a contract that was very tradeable and that made cap sense for the Rams to dump. Seems to me that Demoff did his job well.

Now, whether he should have been told to sign Ogletree is different.

 

[nighttrain]

When Fisher was here, i do believe he had the Call
train

 

[Merlin]

While I do agree with you, it can't be easy.

Take Ogletree. He probably didn't know how he would play in Wade's scheme, but based on prior play he earned $10 million per year.

Now Joyner. Probably didn't know how he would play in Wade's scheme, but based on prior play he earned $3-5 million per year.

Assuming the Rams talked to both, which we don't know, it's easy to see why Tree would sign an extension and Joyner would not. Basically bet on himself and won, but it was an easy decision.

But the concern here is that they actually PAID Tree before they knew how he'd transition into the scheme, making the same mistake they made with guys like Tavon.

The more mistakes like that you make, the more you have to eat trades and take on additional risk to counter them. Peters was an end result of some of that, where they painted themselves into a corner and had to take on some risk and rightly so to ensure the talent was there. It was a good move that I supported, but still.

I think it's worth discussion. That this organization isn't yet at that elite point. Will they get there? Maybe. But they still got some kinks they need to work out and IMO they should start with ensuring they're locking down the right guys not kicking cans down the road. Do that BS for the lesser talents.

Oh and btw what looms for next offseason is the OL as we're all aware. So for me to feel like they're transitioning out of that type of thing I'd have to see them find a way to sign Joyner, Donald, and do something on the OL to preclude desperation next year. Not panicking here dudes, but again it's something that certainly warrants discussion.

 

[dieterbrock]

This is silly. This is the McVay/Snead 1st off season where they have a season of play for evaluation purposes.
Ogletree would have been a FA had they not signed him to an extension, and had they let him walk, they get nothing. Instead, they extend him and are able to trade him for a 4th rounder and a 6th.
I hate losing the player, and not sure if this sets a bad precedent, but their move did make sense and pays off.

 

[fearsomefour]

And note that when the Rams signed Ogletree, it was a contract that was very tradeable and that made cap sense for the Rams to dump. Seems to me that Demoff did his job well.

Now, whether he should have been told to sign Ogletree is different.

At the time I think it made sense.

 

[fearsomefour]

But the concern here is that they actually PAID Tree before they knew how he'd transition into the scheme, making the same mistake they made with guys like Tavon.

The more mistakes like that you make, the more you have to eat trades and take on additional risk to counter them. Peters was an end result of some of that, where they painted themselves into a corner and had to take on some risk and rightly so to ensure the talent was there. It was a good move that I supported, but still.

I think it's worth discussion. That this organization isn't yet at that elite point. Will they get there? Maybe. But they still got some kinks they need to work out and IMO they should start with ensuring they're locking down the right guys not kicking cans down the road. Do that BS for the lesser talents.

Oh and btw what looms for next offseason is the OL as we're all aware. So for me to feel like they're transitioning out of that type of thing I'd have to see them find a way to sign Joyner, Donald, and do something on the OL to preclude desperation next year. Not panicking here dudes, but again it's something that certainly warrants discussion.

A team is always going to be dealing with this.
Paying before or in the middle of....a scheme change, a coaching change of some kind, role change, recovery from an injury, personal issues with the player etc.

 

[fearsomefour]

This is silly. This is the McVay/Snead 1st off season where they have a season of play for evaluation purposes.
Ogletree would have been a FA had they not signed him to an extension, and had they let him walk, they get nothing. Instead, they extend him and are able to trade him for a 4th rounder and a 6th.
I hate losing the player, and not sure if this sets a bad precedent, but their move did make sense and pays off.

Agree with all of this.
It was wise to sign him when they did.
He is a player with skill and value.
Whether it was wise to let him go, well, time will tell.
The issue with Ogletree may have been scheme. May have just been his contract. The approach may be to draft D and sign lower cost FA and have a good enough D to win while the O scores 30 points a game.

 

[Corbin]

This is silly. This is the McVay/Snead 1st off season where they have a season of play for evaluation purposes.
Ogletree would have been a FA had they not signed him to an extension, and had they let him walk, they get nothing. Instead, they extend him and are able to trade him for a 4th rounder and a 6th.
I hate losing the player, and not sure if this sets a bad precedent, but their move did make sense and pays off.

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[ljramsfan]

This title is misleading..it should read:
Right now the Rams DID HAVE a problem in PAYING the wrong players

 

[Akrasian]

This is silly. This is the McVay/Snead 1st off season where they have a season of play for evaluation purposes.
Ogletree would have been a FA had they not signed him to an extension, and had they let him walk, they get nothing. Instead, they extend him and are able to trade him for a 4th rounder and a 6th.
I hate losing the player, and not sure if this sets a bad precedent, but their move did make sense and pays off.

Well, they likely would either have gotten a comp pick, or losing him to free agency would have made it more likely that they would still get high comp picks for Watkins and Johnson.

I don't remember how his contract extension affected his cap hit in 2017 (I suspect it was fairly neutral) but it does cost the Rams $6.4 million in cap space for 2018, which is the money for a solid but not star starter at linebacker, for instance. Or money that could go to pay AD. The question is whether the Rams are better off losing that cap space and the future 7th rounder they traded with him while gaining a late 4th and a 6th this year, or whether they would have been better off having more cap space and more likely to have several decent comp picks in 2019. I don't think it's clear either way.

I guess what I'm saying is that while the Rams ended up doing okay dumping a player they decided they didn't want right after signing him to a big contract, it isn't exactly a huge win over not extending him in the first place, and may actually be a bit of a loss overall. So they shouldn't make a habit of it, if possible.

 

[PressureD41]

This is silly. This is the McVay/Snead 1st off season where they have a season of play for evaluation purposes.
Ogletree would have been a FA had they not signed him to an extension, and had they let him walk, they get nothing. Instead, they extend him and are able to trade him for a 4th rounder and a 6th.
I hate losing the player, and not sure if this sets a bad precedent, but their move did make sense and pays off.

Agreed totally.... Lets give the team props for cleaning up their mess (Tree contract) and moving on. Getting cap relief and any draft pick is good biz imho

EDIT:
if we cut Tree we would have been reward w/ a 2019 4th rd Comp pick fyi

 

[badnews]

I am not sure that the extension was done solely for the purpose of trading him instead of letting him hit ufa and we get nothing.

I dont know if that is what happened or if thats a stupid idea... but I do know that these guys like Demoff and Snead have to be several chess moves ahead the competition when it comes to working with the cap in an ever changing NFL economy.