Refs Instructed to Call More Holding Calls?

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dieterbrock

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Rich NFL owners didn’t get that way by being stupid. They are master strategists.
And yet many of the smart owners haven’t had much success over the last 10-15 years like Cleveland, the Jets, the Bills, the Raiders. And of course our Rams up until 2017. So are all the owners in on it? Can’t jmagine Jerry Jones agreeing to win only 2 playoff games in the last 20 years, Daniel Snyder only 1 playoff win in 20 years.
If they are in on it, doesn’t seem too smart to me
 

1maGoh

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Somebody literally threw a table out there. You didn't see that?

And you say you watch the games.

It should say tackle. Good Lord man.

Also, this is the 5th* edit of this post. Sometimes I hate my auto correct.

*Now 6th
 

Elmgrovegnome

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And yet many of the smart owners haven’t had much success over the last 10-15 years like Cleveland, the Jets, the Bills, the Raiders. And of course our Rams up until 2017. So are all the owners in on it? Can’t jmagine Jerry Jones agreeing to win only 2 playoff games in the last 20 years, Daniel Snyder only 1 playoff win in 20 years.
If they are in on it, doesn’t seem too smart to me


Overall league success equals more money. More money equals winning to an owner. Outside of maybe Jerry Jones, I think profits are the most important thing. That doesn't mean they don't want a good team.. it just means that there aren't that many good Head Coach/GM combos around. And if you can't find that successful combo, then even in a tampered system, you aren't going to the Superbowl. A team has to be credible first. But all of the owners still win with profits and the value of their franchises increasing.
 

dieterbrock

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Overall league success equals more money. More money equals winning to an owner. Outside of maybe Jerry Jones, I think profits are the most important thing. That doesn't mean they don't want a good team.. it just means that there aren't that many good Head Coach/GM combos around. And if you can't find that successful combo, then even in a tampered system, you aren't going to the Superbowl. A team has to be credible first. But all of the owners still win with profits and the value of their franchises increasing.
This theory contradicts itself though. Teams don’t have individual profits based on league success. And individual team value isn’t profit.
A winning team is going to sell more merch, have better gate, more prime viewing, better profit. So I don’t see where any owner would agree to a tampered system without their team benefiting.
The nfl doesn’t need help, never has. I can’t ever understand how the alleged fixing makes the game better or more interesting.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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This theory contradicts itself though. Teams don’t have individual profits based on league success. And individual team value isn’t profit.
A winning team is going to sell more merch, have better gate, more prime viewing, better profit. So I don’t see where any owner would agree to a tampered system without their team benefiting.
The nfl doesn’t need help, never has. I can’t ever understand how the alleged fixing makes the game better or more interesting.


Because you are an old school fan. They don’t need to change or alter anything to keep our interest. But there are lots of new or potential fans that can be drawn in with a great feel good story. Or by their new franchise being on the winning side.
 

LesBaker

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Outside of maybe Jerry Jones, I think profits are the most important thing.

I think Jerruh is in the top level of greedy owners. I bet if you offered him triple the profits but no more Super Bowls the rest of his life he'd take it.

Because you are an old school fan. They don’t need to change or alter anything to keep our interest. But there are lots of new or potential fans that can be drawn in with a great feel good story. Or by their new franchise being on the winning side.

If the NFL want's to draw in new fans then the focus should be gaining female fans. And they have done that to a degree, but the poor handling of violence against women counters it to a larger degree. I don't buy the notion that a feel good story would have any interest outside of LA (it's not a new franchise!!) or would draw new fans. Fun exciting games and getting the younger fans and female fans is the way to go IMO.
 

LARAMSinFeb.

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Very unlikely. Due to AD alone our DL is held far more than most, and on obvious passing downs Suh is held more than most NTs as well.

Offensively our dudes hold of course. But not more than our DL is held. If there is any truth to all this, it is a huge boon for the Rams moreso than any other team.

And Brockers. A lot of us have been wondering why he seems to have disappeared this year, so I’ve watching him of late—o linemen have fistfuls of his jersey, pads, etc. on a regular basis.
 

dieterbrock

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Because you are an old school fan. They don’t need to change or alter anything to keep our interest. But there are lots of new or potential fans that can be drawn in with a great feel good story. Or by their new franchise being on the winning side.
"Feel Good" stories are nothing new. David vs Goliath, Comeback story, out of nowhere story etc. Thing is, the game isn't manipulated to fit the story, on the contrary. When a game is a big game, (national, playoff) the media spins the story to fit the game, to draw interest. Been going on forever, in every sport.
The new school is not the crowd who needs to be drawn in IMO. The new school fan, and why profits have sky rocketed, is the fantasy football fan. The game has never been more popular and reached a higher audience than now. And FFB isn't based on who wins and loses, its all predicated on individual results. The game doesn't need manipulation in order for stats to be obtained.
If anything, its the old school fan who's lost Lol.
The game is so different for us old timers. 2 point conversions, 35 yard XP, all the rules to help passing etc
 

Ramsdude

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Agreed Dieter/ Much different game today. I am torn as I love a good D but also love a good O. :)
 

Mackeyser

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So as some know I officiate high school and semi pro ball. There are rules and then there is philosophy. We all know the rules, however we apply philosophy to make these calls. First and foremost; all fowls must be big.

As far as holding goes: if a player is double-teamed (like Donald is on most every play) we don't call a holding fowl unless it is just ridiculous. The philosophy is that if the other team wants to use 2 players on him, that's their disadvantage and so it's allowed (in general).

Most of the time, when I see Donald held and it's not called, he was double-teamed. So I assume it's NFL philosophy also.

That's my 2 cents anyway.

Ah, that’s just chicken...
 

Mackeyser

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It's cool with me I like discussion with you, your thoughtful.



If they are selling tickets and getting paid billions by TV stations they would be required to reveal that the game wasn't legit. This would add hundreds possibly thousands more to the pool that would have to be quiet about knowing the games are rigged.

I would argue that they are required to offer a fair game because that's what they are selling. Not providing it, and actually providing rigged games, is fraud. And on a massive scale like no other.

TV stations and everyone else would cover the NFL with lawsuits.

Why would owners and the league take the risk? It would only take one guy coming forward to ruin them financially, disgrace them and their families, and spend years upon years in jail.

And why this makes so sense is this..........they simply don't need to do it.



An NDA like that would never make it to court, this would be too big of a deal. And non competes and NDA's don't mean a thing in a situation like this. You cannot have an NDA over a gigantic series of literally thousands of felony charges between the hundreds of people who would have to know about it, a judge would throw it out right away.



But after all of these decades NOT ONE has even hinted, or dropped info.

Les, during a lawsuit brought by a fan after Deflategate, I think, the NFL argued a) as a single entity and b) that the bearer of a ticket is ONLY being offered a seat to entertainment. A fair contest is not included in the contract established by purchasing a ticket.

While surely this was argued to indemnify the league from rogue actors subverting the integrity of the game, the legal argument ends up positioning the NFL in the very same category as pro wrestling.

Is the league pro wrestling? No.

It is arguing that pro football is “entertainment” which relieves the NFL of any responsibility for a fair contest.

Which brings us to whistleblowers. Since the NFL is not beholden to present a fair contest, then they are doing nothing illegal by fixing outcomes. Thus, if a ref wanted to come forward and say that the NFL is fixed, there several problems.

1) Fixing is NOT illegal for an “entertainment company”.

2) Because most fans mistakenly believe that there is a legal contract for a fair contest, the damages to the NFL would be astounding and actionable. There would be a legit case to sue ANYONE including publishers for billions.

3) the next whistleblower who leads a better life after whistleblowing will be the first.

The bottom line is that anyone coming forward would be like someone who tells everyone at a PTA meeting about a parent who does something gross, but legal. That damage is actionable as both libel and slander insofar as any interviews would be slander and any publication would be libel. Truth does not mitigate this damage and in many cases, the subject being true only augments the damages.

So, let’s say a ref does come forward.

1) He’s immediately guilty of slander since fixing the outcome of an NFL game by the NFL isn’t illegal. He’d immediately be slapped with an injunction against any further public statements. It’s also certain that he’d be violating his employment contract.

2) He’s immediately sued for a gazillion dollars and there no chance he wins.

3) Nothing is ever published since anything published would fall under libel law and would bankrupt anyone who published.

There’s literally no upside unless he’s so distraught that he publishes online and then commits suicide with his only goal being revenge for...whatever.

So, no. There is zero reason we’d ever see a whistleblower.

I’ve argued that it would only take a few in the know, but it wouldn’t matter if everyone knew. As long as it’s not illegal, any ref who would even try saying something would be ruining their lives. For what?

And the lack of a whistleblower doesnt obviate any degree of fixing from shading a contest slightly to outright scripting.
 

Mackeyser

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This theory contradicts itself though. Teams don’t have individual profits based on league success. And individual team value isn’t profit.
A winning team is going to sell more merch, have better gate, more prime viewing, better profit. So I don’t see where any owner would agree to a tampered system without their team benefiting.
The nfl doesn’t need help, never has. I can’t ever understand how the alleged fixing makes the game better or more interesting.

So you really can’t see why the NFL would have a stake in the Patriots winning the Super Bowl after 9/11? Or them continuing to win while we have our military deployed overseas?

Mkay.
 

LesBaker

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Les, during a lawsuit brought by a fan after Deflategate, I think, the NFL argued a) as a single entity and b) that the bearer of a ticket is ONLY being offered a seat to entertainment. A fair contest is not included in the contract established by purchasing a ticket.

While surely this was argued to indemnify the league from rogue actors subverting the integrity of the game, the legal argument ends up positioning the NFL in the very same category as pro wrestling.

Is the league pro wrestling? No.

It is arguing that pro football is “entertainment” which relieves the NFL of any responsibility for a fair contest.

Which brings us to whistleblowers. Since the NFL is not beholden to present a fair contest, then they are doing nothing illegal by fixing outcomes. Thus, if a ref wanted to come forward and say that the NFL is fixed, there several problems.

1) Fixing is NOT illegal for an “entertainment company”.

2) Because most fans mistakenly believe that there is a legal contract for a fair contest, the damages to the NFL would be astounding and actionable. There would be a legit case to sue ANYONE including publishers for billions.

3) the next whistleblower who leads a better life after whistleblowing will be the first.

The bottom line is that anyone coming forward would be like someone who tells everyone at a PTA meeting about a parent who does something gross, but legal. That damage is actionable as both libel and slander insofar as any interviews would be slander and any publication would be libel. Truth does not mitigate this damage and in many cases, the subject being true only augments the damages.

So, let’s say a ref does come forward.

1) He’s immediately guilty of slander since fixing the outcome of an NFL game by the NFL isn’t illegal. He’d immediately be slapped with an injunction against any further public statements. It’s also certain that he’d be violating his employment contract.

2) He’s immediately sued for a gazillion dollars and there no chance he wins.

3) Nothing is ever published since anything published would fall under libel law and would bankrupt anyone who published.

There’s literally no upside unless he’s so distraught that he publishes online and then commits suicide with his only goal being revenge for...whatever.

So, no. There is zero reason we’d ever see a whistleblower.

I’ve argued that it would only take a few in the know, but it wouldn’t matter if everyone knew. As long as it’s not illegal, any ref who would even try saying something would be ruining their lives. For what?

And the lack of a whistleblower doesnt obviate any degree of fixing from shading a contest slightly to outright scripting.

You can't leap a canyon in two leaps and this is like trying that.
 

EastRam

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Les, during a lawsuit brought by a fan after Deflategate, I think, the NFL argued a) as a single entity and b) that the bearer of a ticket is ONLY being offered a seat to entertainment. A fair contest is not included in the contract established by purchasing a ticket.

While surely this was argued to indemnify the league from rogue actors subverting the integrity of the game, the legal argument ends up positioning the NFL in the very same category as pro wrestling.

Is the league pro wrestling? No.

It is arguing that pro football is “entertainment” which relieves the NFL of any responsibility for a fair contest.

Which brings us to whistleblowers. Since the NFL is not beholden to present a fair contest, then they are doing nothing illegal by fixing outcomes. Thus, if a ref wanted to come forward and say that the NFL is fixed, there several problems.

1) Fixing is NOT illegal for an “entertainment company”.

2) Because most fans mistakenly believe that there is a legal contract for a fair contest, the damages to the NFL would be astounding and actionable. There would be a legit case to sue ANYONE including publishers for billions.

3) the next whistleblower who leads a better life after whistleblowing will be the first.

The bottom line is that anyone coming forward would be like someone who tells everyone at a PTA meeting about a parent who does something gross, but legal. That damage is actionable as both libel and slander insofar as any interviews would be slander and any publication would be libel. Truth does not mitigate this damage and in many cases, the subject being true only augments the damages.

So, let’s say a ref does come forward.

1) He’s immediately guilty of slander since fixing the outcome of an NFL game by the NFL isn’t illegal. He’d immediately be slapped with an injunction against any further public statements. It’s also certain that he’d be violating his employment contract.

2) He’s immediately sued for a gazillion dollars and there no chance he wins.

3) Nothing is ever published since anything published would fall under libel law and would bankrupt anyone who published.

There’s literally no upside unless he’s so distraught that he publishes online and then commits suicide with his only goal being revenge for...whatever.

So, no. There is zero reason we’d ever see a whistleblower.

I’ve argued that it would only take a few in the know, but it wouldn’t matter if everyone knew. As long as it’s not illegal, any ref who would even try saying something would be ruining their lives. For what?

And the lack of a whistleblower doesnt obviate any degree of fixing from shading a contest slightly to outright scripting.

I'm just gonna spitball here a moment.

I don't think the players have signed onto the entertainment of the NFL. So where would the players union fall in this discussion?

Does the NFL also still enjoy anti trust exemption? Where would that fall in the equation?
 

MauiRam

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I'm not going to hold my breath. I have a feeling if anything happens, it'll be us getting screwed by holding calls while AD gets tackled over and over again without the refs even giving it a second glance.

That is an outrageous piece of optimism!!
 

LesBaker

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I'm just gonna spitball here a moment.

I don't think the players have signed onto the entertainment of the NFL. So where would the players union fall in this discussion?

Does the NFL also still enjoy anti trust exemption? Where would that fall in the equation?

Now you are adding even more people into the fold that would have to know about the scheme.

And yes the NFL still has anti-trust because they aren't stopping other people from starting a football league.
 

dieterbrock

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So you really can’t see why the NFL would have a stake in the Patriots winning the Super Bowl after 9/11? Or them continuing to win while we have our military deployed overseas?

Mkay.
Nope. I think that was a stretch then and even more so now.
 

EastRam

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Now you are adding even more people into the fold that would have to know about the scheme.

And yes the NFL still has anti-trust because they aren't stopping other people from starting a football league.

Naw. I'm referring to the league positioning itself as entertainment vs a legit Sport.

I'm asking wouldn't the players have to position themselves as entertainers for the NFL to take the stance the games are for entertainment purposes.

I'm not talking about fixing games. Just the NFLs position in court of entertainment. Wouldn't the players union have to take the same stance as entertainers?

I don't think they would
 

Mackeyser

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No, the argument was legal and mostly refers to the classification of the corporation.

I don’t know how players would react and I don’t plan to speculate. As long as the players get paid and there remains a focus on player safety, what difference does it make to the union?

Also, I don’t get the “two leaps” thing.

I articulated why I think no one has come forward and why it is nearly impossible that it ever happens.

To the players, it looks like crappy calls. Same to the fans. Maybe the owners as a condition of ownership understand this shift. I dunno that in the aggregate that it matters.

In baseball, you see small market teams pop up even with a luxury tax on salaries. That’s because the game is legally and technically a sport and MUST be a fair and legit contest. MLB would never and couldn’t argue that it was an entertainment company.

Not gonna convince anyone, but it is what it is.
 

Prime Time

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https://www.si.com/nfl/2018/12/09/h...ian-schottenheimer-leveon-bell-steelers-offer

Why NFL Wants More Holding Calls
By GARY GRAMLING

If you watched into the second half of Thursday Night Football, may God have mercy on your soul. But also, you likely heard the Buck-Aikman-Pereira triumvirate discuss that the NFL had handed down a mandate to crack down on offensive holding.

The kneejerk reaction is that this is the first anti-offense emphasis to come from Park Avenue in years. And it is. But while it’s a move designed to help the defense, it’s not necessarily going to curtail scoring in the long run.

As I’ve discussed with podcast partner/K-pop idol Andy Benoit on our shows, and wrote about in the wake of the Rams-Chiefs Monday night classic, the league has re-shaped its rules to favor the aggressors—that’s mostly offense, but that’s also the pass rush.

If the NFL is trying to litigate the "holding on every play" mentality out of the game, it will have a similar effect to what they've done to defensive backs over the past decade. You have more big plays coming from offenses, and then you’ll have more splash plays coming from defenses.

Then you'll get more games like Rams-Chiefs; there where 105 points that night, but 28 of them came courtesy of the defenses. Points are fun, but turnovers are typically the most exciting plays in football, and it's the chaos of the pass rush that creates turnovers.