Ranking true No. 1 pass-catchers

[jrry32]

This is all hypothetical and your opinion of what could have been. Sure, lots of guys could have been better had they played on better teams or with better qbs that is not a profound thought. I like to focus on things that actually happened.

When you're comparing two players in different situations that played during different time periods, focusing on stats(not what actually happened) as the infallible measure of performance does not work for me. It will get nowhere in a discussion with me.

Peyton and Brady are much better than Pennington and Testeverde, okay? sucks for Chrebet, doesn't make him comparable to Welker. Welker has had a significantly better career in fewer games no? He's still not done so these margins will only get bigger. Similar attributes, sure. But what the hell does that matter? Its almost like you're faulting Welker for having good qbs by negating what he has done and comparing him to some forgettable nobody. Your comparison has absolutely 0 merit unless you include the stipulation "maybe Chrebet could have been somewhere in the realm of Welker had he played with better qbs" maybe he coulda been, maybe not but as it stands there is nothing to justify them even being anywhere close to the same level.

That would be the simple point. Would Welker be some forgettable nobody had he and Chrebet switched teams and time periods? IMO, yes. Outside of the slot, Welker was a solid to good #2. Which is what Chrebet was during his days...when the slot was not heavily utilized.

That's the point. And it's why I don't think slot WRs are as valuable as a #1 WR nor would I consider one a #1 WR.

What does similar attributes matter? A lot.

Tom Brady in 2011
401/611
65.6%
5235 yards
8.6 YPA
39 TDs
12 Ints
105.6 QB Rating

Tom Brady in 2013
380/628
60.5%
4343 yards
6.9 YPA
25 TDs
11 Ints
87.3 QB Rating

Now, if we solely looked at the numbers, they'd tell us that Tom Brady became a worse QB over the one year that elapsed between those two years. Do you believe that? Or are there other important factors that statistics do not show or explain in the game of football?

 

[NJRamsFan]

When you're comparing two players in different situations that played during different time periods, focusing on stats(not what actually happened) as the infallible measure of performance does not work for me. It will get nowhere in a discussion with me.



That would be the simple point. Would Welker be some forgettable nobody had he and Chrebet switched teams and time periods? IMO, yes. Outside of the slot, Welker was a solid to good #2. Which is what Chrebet was during his days...when the slot was not heavily utilized.

That's the point. And it's why I don't think slot WRs are as valuable as a #1 WR nor would I consider one a #1 WR.

What does similar attributes matter? A lot.

Tom Brady in 2011
401/611
65.6%
5235 yards
8.6 YPA
39 TDs
12 Ints
105.6 QB Rating

Tom Brady in 2013
380/628
60.5%
4343 yards
6.9 YPA
25 TDs
11 Ints
87.3 QB Rating

Now, if we solely looked at the numbers, they'd tell us that Tom Brady became a worse QB over the one year that elapsed between those two years. Do you believe that? Or are there other important factors that statistics do not show or explain in the game of football?

Look at your first point..."When you're comparing two players in different situations that played during different time periods" so they were in different time periods, different situations, and they're numbers aren't comparable. WHY THE HELL ARE WE COMPARING THEM THAN? They aren't comparable, thats the point.

Would Welker be this if that happened or would Chrebet be that if this happened....IDK and neither do you. We can't argue hypotheticals bro...

If Danny Amendola stayed healthy and played for the patriots and broncos he might be wes welker too.

If Danario Alexander was healthy and on the patriots and broncos he might be Calvin Johnson.


All of that is irrelevant because it is fiction.

 

[jrry32]

Ill address this in order.

1) A good try? its not really a try but rather a fact. Do you disagree with what i said? that "there are always multiple factors that go into a guys success such as qb play and surrounding cast" The brady point is moot because one of the guys you're defending has Aaron Rodgers as his qb...who last time i checked was no slouch.

One of the guys. Not all of them. So no, it's not moot. In terms of Jordy Nelson, sure, it's a moot point. But for the other guys that don't have elite QBs, it's not a moot point.

2) The offensive line comparison is a huge stretch. If one of my Wr's has 10 catches for 100 yards and a score should that count less because he lined up inside? To me that says he was consistently able to get separation, made his catches and was a big part of the teams success. I don't care if he lines up in the backfield.

Nah. It's a great comparison. Do you consider a LT to be more valuable than a LG? If so, why?

And then apply that to the WR position and see if there's a comparison.

3) How is that not a fair comparison? Welker wasnt healthy in 2013 just as Nelson wasn't in 2012, its been well documented just how severely concusions impact players so its safe to say Welker wasn't healthy either. Its not a fair comparison because the numbers don't support what you are saying. You can't simply omit something because it doesn't support your claim. Out of the past 3 years they both had 2 healthy seasons and 1 where they played 12 and 13 games respectively, and Welker was more productive during that span. These are the facts, not what I think was going to happen or might have happened if this or that.

I just explained it. Welker got his concussion and sat out the rest of the year. It didn't negatively effect his play while on the field. Nelson was severely hampered by the hamstring and wasn't the same player. Which is why he missed games on and off throughout the rest of the year after injuring his hamstring.

Again, you fail to consider things beyond stats.

Out of the past 3 years, when they were healthy, Jordy Nelson was the better player. He's big, he's fast, he's a highly effective route runner, effortless mover, excellent body control, and has great hands. His ability to adjust to the football has made him lethal on back-shoulder throws from Rodgers. Plays like these:

Nelson has developed into a great WR. He's very underrated.

4) Once again, those are hypothetical numbers that he didn't reach in 2012 he was off to a good start sad that he got hurt but he did...lets focus on what actually happened

Okay. You go discuss that with the fantasy football guys out there. I prefer to discuss and analyze players. I prefer to talk football. What Nelson can do when healthy is what matters to me. Not what he does when he has a severely injured hamstring. Because we're discussing who the better player is. So I'm done with this discussion because I've had enough of the "these are the facts(stats)" bullcrap.

If I wanted to look at a boxscore, I would. I was interested in hearing your unique perspective...not what ESPN.com told you. Good night.

 

[NJRamsFan]

One of the guys. Not all of them. So no, it's not moot. In terms of Jordy Nelson, sure, it's a moot point. But for the other guys that don't have elite QBs, it's not a moot point.

So it can't be used as a negative when addressing Welker saying he's a product of his offense/qb but not jordy nelson?

Nah. It's a great comparison. Do you consider a LT to be more valuable than a LG? If so, why?

And then apply that to the WR position and see if there's a comparison.

Ill give you a better comparison. Do you think DeAngelo Hall is better than Richard Sherman? Sherman only covers one side of the field where as Hall is tasked with following the other teams best WR around all game which is clearly more difficult. If sherman were to do that he might be exposed a la Nnamdi Asamugha. So we must fault Sherman for succeeding at the easier version of cb as you fault welker for succeeding in the slot right? we can't consider him a Lockdown corner(#1 WR) because there are other guys doing things in a more difficult manner. Which is why I will say once again these generic labels are stupid.

I just explained it. Welker got his concussion and sat out the rest of the year. It didn't negatively effect his play while on the field. Nelson was severely hampered by the hamstring and wasn't the same player. Which is why he missed games on and off throughout the rest of the year after injuring his hamstring.

Again, you fail to consider things beyond stats.

Out of the past 3 years, when they were healthy, Jordy Nelson was the better player. He's big, he's fast, he's a highly effective route runner, effortless mover, excellent body control, and has great hands. His ability to adjust to the football has made him lethal on back-shoulder throws from Rodgers.

Okay, if we omit the two years that Welker, and Nelson suffered injuries in the only thing that changes is TDs and IMO that pretty much cancels out. Comparing there last 2 healthy seasons, Nelson has 7 more tds. Welker still has nearly 100 more catches and nearly 400 more yards.

Okay. You go discuss that with the fantasy football guys out there. I prefer to discuss and analyze players. I prefer to talk football. What Nelson can do when healthy is what matters to me. Not what he does when he has a severely injured hamstring. Because we're discussing who the better player is. So I'm done with this discussion because I've had enough of the "these are the facts(stats)" bullcrap.

I am analyzing players. I just happen to think succeeding in a different way is not a fault. To me having success is more important than how or why you achieved that success.

If I wanted to look at a boxscore, I would. I was interested in hearing your unique perspective...not what ESPN.com told you. Good night.

Hope theres no hard feelings man. From reading your posts since I've been here I've always thought you and have very similar styles when debating so it makes for a heated clash. But, thats how I talk with all my friends at home perhaps since I was raised in a family of lawyers lol. I can come off a bit abrasive but its not my intention, in fact I respect your opinion more than most.

 

[jrry32]

NJRams, there's never any hard feelings. I don't hold grudges. Everyone has their opinion. Sometimes heated arguments happen. Only time I'd take things personally is if a poster went out of his way to insult me and bait me without me having said anything to him(happened on another board).