Rams future QB situation?

[MerlinJones]

And with Shotty calling the plays you might as well bring in Tebow to be the QB.

Bite your tongue!

Don't you know that if we keep saying his name he might appear???

 

[drasconis]

We have HBs, though. We have pieces on the OL. This isn't the 2009 Rams. We can draft Winston and draft a LG like A.J. Cann in the 2nd round and our OL will be just fine as long as we re-sign Barks. Hell, maybe we even pull a guy like Wisniewski. Never know.

You can find a HOF DE in other places than the top of the 1st...doesn't mean you pass on Clowney. The higher the pick, the higher the probability.

Winston is nothing like Jeff George. Winston has the arm talent and he has the mind. Don't confuse off the field immaturity with on the field ability. Winston is regarded as a football savant. George Whitfield Jr. said his football IQ and acumen is on par with Luck. Winston ran FSU's offense to near perfection as a RS Freshman. An offense with Pro Style roots and concepts that E.J. Manuel was struggling with as a Senior.

Winston has an incredibly high football IQ.

This team has pieces, it needs a QB.

The worry is that the off the feild stuff prevents him from playing. I do not think pulls a Jamarcus....I worry more that he pulls a Vick/Rice where he either get involved in something or has an "incident" that resultsin his career going bye-bye. There has to be a safer/better choice. As someone said if you drafted him and he imploded you are setting the team soooooo far back....to big ofa risk.[/QUOTE]

 

[jrry32]

OK, i've watched the plays, and they're all crazy good. now, you can read this article. and if you can honestly say that you still feel good about campaigning for this person, well...i don't know what to say.

I've read that article. It gives you one side of the story but conveniently omits certain facts that don't jive with their narrative...here's another article telling the other side of the story:
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/12/5/5177808/jameis-winston-police-report-charges-announcement

The unredacted police report contains at least four different versions of events given to investigators. Two were given by the complainant herself. Two are told by the complainant's friends to the police, as they claim were told to them by the complainant. The complainant's memory of the night in question is incomplete, for a reason that is not clear.

The complainant maintains in both stories that she had five "vodka drinks." In one version, the complainant mentions taking shots, but that she was told about taking the shots, and does not remember taking them. However, the detective interviewing the complainant noted in the report that the complainant "appeared to be very tired, but not intoxicated." The complainant's family later claimed that the detective told the family that the complainant's blood work results showed that she was not intoxicated, a laboratory finding consistent with the detective's observation.

The end of the police report says that the case is being suspended due to a lack of cooperation from the victim -- a claim that the victim's family disputed in a statement, but that if the victim decides to press charges, the case will be pursued.

Given the potential credibility issues presented by the contradicting stories given to police, and the lack of evidence of intoxication or so called "date rape" drugs in the complainant's system to perhaps explain the inconsistencies, the complainant's credibility could be an issue.

There are other factors pointing to charges not being brought, as well. Winston's attorney has indicated that he has two exculpatory eye-witnesses who gave affidavits to police. Tomahawk Nation has learned that neither witness's DNA was matched to the second DNA sample obtained from the complainant.

Yep, I don't have an issue advocating for him. When you read both sides of the story, it's far from convincing on the rape issue. I don't know what happened so I'm not going to take it into account because I can't verify it.

The New York Times article only shows the problem with taking the media at face value. They had a big story and rather than reporting it in an objective way with all the facts for both sides, they slanted the story strongly in the accuser's favor. That's incredibly biased reporting.

In this case, it's very difficult to discern who is telling the truth. The girl's story is severely undermined by the fact that she changed her story multiple times, was contradicted by HER own friends, was contradicted by Winston's friends, was not intoxicated and did not have any drugs show up in her toxicology test, and her final story relies on the claim that she blacked out.

The second DNA sample belonged to her boyfriend who she had sex with earlier that day so that's irrelevant. However, the facts aren't simple. They don't make it clear what happened that night.

 

[AZRamsFan93]

If we draft Mariota, I wouldn't be upset but I hope we re-sign Bradford because throwing Mariota into the wolves spells disaster. He needs the Davis treatment (maybe not 3 years) to ease in to the offense while he's coached up fundamentals of understanding the pro-style offense.

I agree that just because we draft a young QB we should not cut all the other QBs on the roster. Davis needs to stay and maybe start. We just need the talent at the position.

 

[moklerman]

I'd rather have an immature superstar than a mature mediocre QB. You can fix the OL and draft a guy like Winston. Me? I'm not going to bank on mediocre QBs like a Colt McCoy to help turn this team around. The teams that consistently win have a franchise QB.

So where do you rate Winston as a prospect compared to some of the other recent 1st round QB's? Bortles and Bridgewater aren't transforming their respective teams to this point for example.

Is he on the level of Luck as a prospect? Or Cam Newton? Or Vince Young?

I don't see any QB's in this draft that are true blue-chippers like Luck. IMO, Winston looks like another Vince Young situation waiting to happen. They hypothetical reward isn't worth the risk to me.

Of course, as much as I appreciate the time and effort you put into analyzing, I don't share your disregard for character and winning justifying the means. If you want Michael Vick and Aaron Hernandez on your team if it means winning some games then I don't think you're thinking clearly on the subject.

 

[moklerman]

Bite your tongue!

Don't you know that if we keep saying his name he might appear???

I think you have to say it 3 times in a row, looking into a mirror that has an alligator hanging from a crucifix in the reflection, on a leap year during a solar eclipse just as Haley's comet is passing in the sky.

Still...why chance it?

 

[jrry32]

So where do you rate Winston as a prospect compared to some of the other recent 1st round QB's? Bortles and Bridgewater aren't transforming their respective teams to this point for example.

Is he on the level of Luck as a prospect? Or Cam Newton? Or Vince Young?

I don't see any QB's in this draft that are true blue-chippers like Luck. IMO, Winston looks like another Vince Young situation waiting to happen. They hypothetical reward isn't worth the risk to me.

Of course, as much as I appreciate the time and effort you put into analyzing, I don't share your disregard for character and winning justifying the means. If you want Michael Vick and Aaron Hernandez on your team if it means winning some games then I don't think you're thinking clearly on the subject.

Jameis Winston is nothing like Vince Young. If he were white, nobody would think to compare him to Young.

Winston is better than Bortles. On par with Bridgewater but with more upside and physical talent, better than Newton...not nearly as polished as Luck but more physically talented and similarly talented in terms of mental acuity.

I'm thinking plenty clearly. Don't try to force your morals on me. I wouldn't take Hernandez because murder is quite different. I might take Vick after his prison term but not before it when he was brutally killing animals.

 

[moklerman]

Jameis Winston is nothing like Vince Young. If he were white, nobody would think to compare him to Young.

Winston is better than Bortles. On par with Bridgewater but with more upside and physical talent, better than Newton...not nearly as polished as Luck but more physically talented and similarly talented in terms of mental acuity.

I'm thinking plenty clearly. Don't try to force your morals on me. I wouldn't take Hernandez because murder is quite different. I might take Vick after his prison term but not before it when he was brutally killing animals.

Well, Young was a pretty highly touted prospect coming out of college so it has nothing to do with his race. That Young was a head case is what I'm comparing. Winston has already provided a boat load of red flags in that regard and is a risk in terms of personality.

As far as their style of play, I'm not really commenting on that. But in terms of college success and production, I think they're comparable.

It's confusing to me that you think he's more talented than Luck and better than Newton but on par with Bridgewater. Maybe Teddy turns into a good QB some day but he's not starting strong by any means. Luck and Newton were much better at the same stage.

That you'd take Vick is disappointing. Many, many teams have proved you can win without sinking to various levels. Winston is trouble waiting to happen and from what I've heard, a real creep. Don't want him anywhere near the Rams. I don't care if he's Joe Montana, Dan Marino and Peyton Manning all rolled into one(which he's not).

 

[dieterbrock]

Jameis Winston is nothing like Vince Young. If he were white, nobody would think to compare him to Young.

.

I hate when people play the race card. Based on the mental aspect, Vince Young is a fair analysis. Young busted because he's a numbskull and that's the fear with Winston

 

[Amitar]

I'd like to see Austin keep playing but I would really like to see what Keenum can do.

 

[jrry32]

Well, Young was a pretty highly touted prospect coming out of college so it has nothing to do with his race. That Young was a head case is what I'm comparing. Winston has already provided a boat load of red flags in that regard and is a risk in terms of personality.

As far as their style of play, I'm not really commenting on that. But in terms of college success and production, I think they're comparable.

It's confusing to me that you think he's more talented than Luck and better than Newton but on par with Bridgewater. Maybe Teddy turns into a good QB some day but he's not starting strong by any means. Luck and Newton were much better at the same stage.

That you'd take Vick is disappointing. Many, many teams have proved you can win without sinking to various levels. Winston is trouble waiting to happen and from what I've heard, a real creep. Don't want him anywhere near the Rams. I don't care if he's Joe Montana, Dan Marino and Peyton Manning all rolled into one(which he's not).

Young wasn't the same type of head case though.

I don't care where a guy starts. I care where he finishes. I didn't say he's a better QB than Luck. I said he's a more physically talented QB. Which is true. He's got similar size, strength and movement skills with a much stronger arm.

Newton was better than Bridgewater as a rookie because they have very different skill-sets. Bridgewater is reliant on ball placement, precision timing, and football IQ. Newton was reliant on his athletic gifts. Athletic gifts translate quicker which has allowed Newton to develop those other attributes. Mental and technical aspects tend to make more time to develop. But they provide greater longevity and are ultimately more important.

I hate when people play the race card. Based on the mental aspect, Vince Young is a fair analysis. Young busted because he's a numbskull and that's the fear with Winston

Vince Young is poor analysis. Vince Young was a run first college QB with extremely raw passing skills and a complete lack of football IQ. Vince Young failed because he lacked mental toughness and acumen for the game. Jameis Winston is as different from young as you can get. Want to claim he's Ryan Leaf or Jeff George. Go for it. I'd disagree but that's your prerogative.

Young didn't bust because he's a numbskull, he busted because he lacked passing skills and mental acuity. I think Fisher would have happily put up with Young's immaturity and stupidity if the guy was even as adept of a passer as Cutler or Stafford.

 

[blue4]

I've read that article. It gives you one side of the story but conveniently omits certain facts that don't jive with their narrative...here's another article telling the other side of the story:
http://www.tomahawknation.com/2013/12/5/5177808/jameis-winston-police-report-charges-announcement








Yep, I don't have an issue advocating for him. When you read both sides of the story, it's far from convincing on the rape issue. I don't know what happened so I'm not going to take it into account because I can't verify it.

The New York Times article only shows the problem with taking the media at face value. They had a big story and rather than reporting it in an objective way with all the facts for both sides, they slanted the story strongly in the accuser's favor. That's incredibly biased reporting.

In this case, it's very difficult to discern who is telling the truth. The girl's story is severely undermined by the fact that she changed her story multiple times, was contradicted by HER own friends, was contradicted by Winston's friends, was not intoxicated and did not have any drugs show up in her toxicology test, and her final story relies on the claim that she blacked out.

The second DNA sample belonged to her boyfriend who she had sex with earlier that day so that's irrelevant. However, the facts aren't simple. They don't make it clear what happened that night.

The New York Times has an agenda but Tomahawknation.com is fair and balanced, providing unbiased reporting?

 

[dieterbrock]

Vince Young is poor analysis. Vince Young was a run first college QB with extremely raw passing skills and a complete lack of football IQ. Vince Young failed because he lacked mental toughness and acumen for the game. Jameis Winston is as different from young as you can get. Want to claim he's Ryan Leaf or Jeff George. Go for it. I'd disagree but that's your prerogative.

Young didn't bust because he's a numbskull, he busted because he lacked passing skills and mental acuity. I think Fisher would have happily put up with Young's immaturity and stupidity if the guy was even as adept of a passer as Cutler or Stafford.

The comparison is to Vince Young's brain. And it fits. Heisman runner up, national champ also makes for closer comparison. You dont like the comparison, fine, but stop with the race stuff. That's weak.
I think Winston is as physically gifted as any QB I've seen. But his lack of off field mental focus is a big problem. Young would still be on a roster if he wasnt an idiot

 

[blue4]

Young wasn't the same type of head case though.

I don't care where a guy starts. I care where he finishes. I didn't say he's a better QB than Luck. I said he's a more physically talented QB. Which is true. He's got similar size, strength and movement skills with a much stronger arm.

Newton was better than Bridgewater as a rookie because they have very different skill-sets. Bridgewater is reliant on ball placement, precision timing, and football IQ. Newton was reliant on his athletic gifts. Athletic gifts translate quicker which has allowed Newton to develop those other attributes. Mental and technical aspects tend to make more time to develop. But they provide greater longevity and are ultimately more important.



Vince Young is poor analysis. Vince Young was a run first college QB with extremely raw passing skills and a complete lack of football IQ. Vince Young failed because he lacked mental toughness and acumen for the game. Jameis Winston is as different from young as you can get. Want to claim he's Ryan Leaf or Jeff George. Go for it. I'd disagree but that's your prerogative.

Young didn't bust because he's a numbskull, he busted because he lacked passing skills and mental acuity. I think Fisher would have happily put up with Young's immaturity and stupidity if the guy was even as adept of a passer as Cutler or Stafford.

Vince Young's immaturity and stupidity was more like a spoiled little child's immaturity. Winston's immaturity includes possible rape, shooting at squirrels on a college campus just for fun, shouting obscenities about pussy in public gatherings, and stealing shellfish from a store. There's no comparison at all. I don't see why a strong arm glosses over all those red flags. This person would have a tough time getting a job right now at McDonald's, but he's okay for franchise QB?

 

[jrry32]

The New York Times has an agenda but Tomahawknation.com is fair and balanced, providing unbiased reporting?

Nope, that's the point. Each provides a side of the story. Which is kind of important when considering an allegation like rape.

 

[jrry32]

Vince Young's immaturity and stupidity was more like a spoiled little child's immaturity. Winston's immaturity includes possible rape, shooting at squirrels on a college campus just for fun, shouting obscenities about pussy in public gatherings, and stealing shellfish from a store. There's no comparison at all. I don't see why a strong arm glosses over all those red flags. This person would have a tough time getting a job right now at McDonald's, but he's okay for franchise QB?

Because it's a lot more than a strong arm. Lets not act like Winston is the only QB to do stupid things off the field in his early to mid 20s. If you have the talent on it, people overlook it. Did you know that Peyton Manning was accused of sexual assault at Tennessee by a female athletic trainer? Did you know that Brett Favre admitted that Glanville hated him in Atlanta because he partied and drank too hard and didn't put necessary time into football? Did you know that Ben Roethlisberger was accused of rape by multiple women, had poor work habits on the practice field and in the film room, and crashed a motorcycle while driving recklessly when he was younger?

Nobody remembers this stuff because they became great players on the field. If Winston comes into the NFL and continues to be a problem off the field...that's an issue. But lets not act like players can't mature and lets not act like Winston is the only young QB that's ever dealt with maturity issues.

 

[jrry32]

The comparison is to Vince Young's brain. And it fits. Heisman runner up, national champ also makes for closer comparison. You dont like the comparison, fine, but stop with the race stuff. That's weak.
I think Winston is as physically gifted as any QB I've seen. But his lack of off field mental focus is a big problem. Young would still be on a roster if he wasnt an idiot

And the comparison doesn't hold. Vince Young would still be on a roster if he wasn't a sucky QB.

@moklerman I've heard the opposite in regards to Winston. I've heard the guy is immature but a nice guy off the field, really well-liked in the locker-room, and a total clown(in a good way).

 

[dieterbrock]

And the comparison doesn't hold. Vince Young would still be on a roster if he wasn't a sucky QB.
.

Well we both know that's not true, but you'll just dig your heels in. Physically gifted and would be perfect backup. But a locker room cancer and head case. There's plenty of less talented QB's on rosters out there.

Winston has made terrible personal choices, and in today's era of social media, there are plenty of seminars and articles for kids in school, and those entering the workforce about the dangers of social media. People have lost jobs over what they posted, people have damaged their chances at getting hired because of it. I'm certain at your University these warnings are quite evident.

From a skill set, I compare Winton to a John Elway, from a brain standpoint Vince Young

 

[blue4]

Because it's a lot more than a strong arm. Lets not act like Winston is the only QB to do stupid things off the field in his early to mid 20s. If you have the talent on it, people overlook it. Did you know that Peyton Manning was accused of sexual assault at Tennessee by a female athletic trainer? Did you know that Brett Favre admitted that Glanville hated him in Atlanta because he partied and drank too hard and didn't put necessary time into football? Did you know that Ben Roethlisberger was accused of rape by multiple women, had poor work habits on the practice field and in the film room, and crashed a motorcycle while driving recklessly when he was younger?

Nobody remembers this stuff because they became great players on the field. If Winston comes into the NFL and continues to be a problem off the field...that's an issue. But lets not act like players can't mature and lets not act like Winston is the only young QB that's ever dealt with maturity issues.

Manning pulled his pants down in front of a trainer, admitted it was inappropriate, and the lady filed 33 incidents against UT which they settled quickly with $300,000. Not quite shoddy police work by a local PD that never asked a single question or took DNA from the single suspect.

Drinking and not working hard is a common complaint among young people.

Big Ben's problems came AFTER he was drafted. Police said Roethlisberger and his attorney cooperated with investigators. And the one eventually settled and got paid by Big Ben. After which she promptly dropped all charges against the people supposedly covering up her rape. This of course happened when he was a hard partying, filthy rich man in the public eye and not an freshman back up QB. Big Ben was also suspended by his team. Unlike Winston who was allowed to play without being asked much of anything.

So it's not quite the same. Why draft him when we are already having this conversation? This is the guy you want to rest the franchise on?

 

[blue4]

And before you say it, yes those 3 QBs behaved poorly. But at least they cooperated and took the lumps given. Brett Farve lost his job, didn't he? Ben was suspended, and paid the woman so well she cheerfully dropped everything and went away. IDR what happened with Manning.