Paris Under Attack

[Alaskan Ram]

 

[RamFan503]

Being a leader sometimes mean being the first to extend the olive branch.

I'm sorry. That's like saying we have not offered them any peaceful alternatives; that all we have offered is an order to bow down. If you are offering an olive branch to someone who repeatedly tries to cut the hand off that holds it out, there is no number of olive branches that will affect a peaceful outcome. And name a time in history where a peaceful outcome has been attained by offering an olive branch to a genocidal group of peoples.

I don't have a problem with most of that - but unfortunately, a wider brush is generally used to paint that picture.

And that brush could be severely narrowed by those that don't want to be painted by it uniting against these atrocities. I do not like the idea of lumping peaceful people in with this scourge but by not casting them out; by not identifying them among their members; by not publicly demonstrating outrage that these people exist, by simply allowing the brush to encompass them, they are in part to blame.

Does anyone honestly believe that these fanatics that use death and demonstrations of complete lack of regard for civil rights are somehow going to change their tune because leaders from (enter country/countries here) offered them an olive branch? And just what would that olive branch look like? Seriously. What would that olive branch be?

 

[RamFan503]

I get what he is saying and it is true. The issue I have is that as much as Muslims as a whole are not the problem - and they are not as a whole, they could take a much bigger role in being the solution.

 

[12intheBox]

I'm sorry. That's like saying we have not offered them any peaceful alternatives; that all we have offered is an order to bow down. If you are offering an olive branch to someone who repeatedly tries to cut the hand off that holds it out, there is no number of olive branches that will affect a peaceful outcome. And name a time in history where a peaceful outcome has been attained by offering an olive branch to a genocidal group of peoples.


And that brush could be severely narrowed by those that don't want to be painted by it uniting against these atrocities. I do not like the idea of lumping peaceful people in with this scourge but by not casting them out; by not identifying them among their members; by not publicly demonstrating outrage that these people exist, by simply allowing the brush to encompass them, they are in part to blame.

Does anyone honestly believe that these fanatics that use death and demonstrations of complete lack of regard for civil rights are somehow going to change their tune because leaders from (enter country/countries here) offered them an olive branch? And just what would that olive branch look like? Seriously. What would that olive branch be?

I don't know.

I'm not trying to play an expert on foreign policy - I don't think there are easy answers on this one.

What I do know is that we - the U.S. - are a war mongering people. Take a look at someone who is 25 years old and realize that he or she has never lived a day in their life without us being at war somewhere in the world. Not declared war, of course, we don't do that anymore - but conflict where bullets are flying, bombs are dropping, and people are dying. Not saying you are taking this stance - but I see a lot of Americans who act like we are some peaceful nation - when it just isn't the case. We can try to justify each and every one of our 'conflicts' but we would be wasting our time.

As for Muslims publicly demonstrating outrage over ISIS - I can tell you that it is happening all over the world and just a brief google search will bear that out. But what about the other side of that coin? I'm a Christian and I don't feel the need to stop the brush from encompassing me in Oklahoma City, the Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, the Centennial Olympic Park bombing, and however many abortion clinic bombings and murders we are up to now. I am as closely tied to those terrorist acts as most Muslims are to ISIS - which is not at all.

Also, we need to keep in mind the filter thru which we get our information. We know that our media spins the news. You get a completely different picture from FOX than you do from MSNBC - and shame on both of them - the media is more interested in their profits than accuracy. We know that, and yet we accept it. As a result of this, even when we try to become informed, we are really just being fed a bunch of crap. We don't have 'facts' anymore - or at least not very many of them.

Lets say we put boots on the ground and bomb the heck out of the region. We roll tanks thru towns, interrogate people (maybe even innocent ones) looking for intel, and continue to generally occupy the middle east. Do you think we are more likely to win the hearts and minds of the people or create more enemies? If my kid was killed in a air raid, would I care whether the air raid was a retaliation for something that someone else did, or would I just want to kill the people who killed my child?

Someday, someone will step up and declare that war is just not the answer. No more killing each other. No more bombs, no more missiles, no more tanks, no more. Of course, I can hear the other side of the argument - these people can't be reasoned with - yada yada yada - and that may be true. But so far, neither can we.

 

[RamFan503]

I don't know.

I'm not trying to play an expert on foreign policy - I don't think there are easy answers on this one.

What I do know is that we - the U.S. - are a war mongering people. Take a look at someone who is 25 years old and realize that he or she has never lived a day in their life without us being at war somewhere in the world. Not declared war, of course, we don't do that anymore - but conflict where bullets are flying, bombs are dropping, and people are dying. Not saying you are taking this stance - but I see a lot of Americans who act like we are some peaceful nation - when it just isn't the case. We can try to justify each and every one of our 'conflicts' but we would be wasting our time.

As for Muslims publicly demonstrating outrage over ISIS - I can tell you that it is happening all over the world and just a brief google search will bear that out. But what about the other side of that coin? I'm a Christian and I don't feel the need to stop the brush from encompassing me in Oklahoma City, the Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, the Centennial Olympic Park bombing, and however many abortion clinic bombings and murders we are up to now. I am as closely tied to those terrorist acts as most Muslims are to ISIS - which is not at all.

Also, we need to keep in mind the filter thru which we get our information. We know that our media spins the news. You get a completely different picture from FOX than you do from MSNBC - and shame on both of them - the media is more interested in their profits than accuracy. We know that, and yet we accept it. As a result of this, even when we try to become informed, we are really just being fed a bunch of crap. We don't have 'facts' anymore - or at least not very many of them.

Lets say we put boots on the ground and bomb the heck out of the region. We roll tanks thru towns, interrogate people (maybe even innocent ones) looking for intel, and continue to generally occupy the middle east. Do you think we are more likely to win the hearts and minds of the people or create more enemies? If my kid was killed in a air raid, would I care whether the air raid was a retaliation for something that someone else did, or would I just want to kill the people who killed my child?

Someday, someone will step up and declare that war is just not the answer. No more killing each other. No more bombs, no more missiles, no more tanks, no more. Of course, I can hear the other side of the argument - these people can't be reasoned with - yada yada yada - and that may be true. But so far, neither can we.

A great many countries throughout the world can say the same thing. Is virtually every country comprised of a war mongering people? Rightly or wrongly, the US has been looked upon as the country that would come to the rescue. I personally don't agree with us being in that position but I also don't agree that it makes us war mongers. If we were to revert to isolationism, do you honestly think other countries would not be left to take up arms in our absence? Do you really think we would be without war?

The examples you brought up for Christians WERE and ARE denounced with great emphasis by leaders of the church, the Pope, etc... You simply can't compare the level at which fanatical Islam is perpetrating these crimes against humanity and say that the Muslim community should not come out bolder against it.

I am not a religious person. I fall more into Deism. And that being the case, I have no desire to hold religion responsible for these acts. Rather, I have a desire that anyone who decries religion, or philosophy for that matter, as a driving force behind committing these atrocities be ostracized by the people whose philosophy they claim to represent.

You can claim that we don't see it because we are not getting the true facts and I might agree if all you are looking at is MSNBC and FOX for information. I would also agree that most citizens of the entire world are not getting all the facts. But in saying that is why we believe how we believe, you are saying you are getting information that the rest of us simply cannot see. I don't subscribe to that.

I don't think putting US troops on the ground or bombing raids, etc. is the answer unless we can get full cooperation from those who also have a stake in the region. And that includes top Muslim leaders stepping up with real actions - not just lip service. This is truly something that is going t have to come from inside. But I also don't believe it can possibly be done peacefully unless the perps can be arrested and rot in prison.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there will ever be a time where armies are not needed and where war can be replaced entirely by reason. It would be fantastic if it were possible.

I also don't buy into the notion that the US created these idiots by being a war mongering society. These yahoos were doing this long before the US was even a concept. They simply have a greater ability to spread their cowardice as the modern world becomes more available to them.

 

[bluecoconuts]

If a religion teaches oppression of anyone, women, children, sexual orientation, race, whatever, it should be scorned and ostracized by everyone publicly and vehemently.

...... So pretty much all of them?


In terms of the Paris attacks being a symptom of tolerance, I wouldn't agree with that. It's a calculated effort to build up anti-Islamic rhetoric in Western states. ISIS is trying to provoke Western states to begin a massive ground war against them, while citizens turn on Muslims living in the country, even though they have no interest in ISIS or anything they believe in. Then as a war between the West and Islam grows (as ISIS wants) Muslims will feel increased hatred towards them, and will be essentially forced into fighting for ISIS.. In other words they want us to attempt another Crusades, turn against the Muslims living in our countries peacefully, and convince them through our misguided hatred to take up arms against us from within.

If you read their doctrine, they believe that they will set up a state of Islam, and will eventually be pushed to the brink by the Romans (which has been interpreted to Western, specifically American) before Jesus will return and they will get assistance and defeat the west, reclaiming previously held Muslim land. That's why they get very excited when they see American/Western forces on the ground opposing them, they believe it only shows that their doctrine is true, and it helps them with recruiting others to their cause.

This is all stuff that has been declared them them, it's not guesswork.

So far, judging by the response after Paris, we're falling for their plan hook line and sinker. Our response, specifically State politicians saying they wont take Syrian refugees (which they really can't do, but whatever), people turning and attacking refugee camps, will only spur further attacks because to them it's what they want us to do. They're trying to drive a wedge, and a worryingly large number of people in the west are allowing themselves to be influenced by ISIS.

You want to defeat ISIS? Don't legitimize them, and don't let them control your actions. That's the quickest way to get people to stop joining their ranks. Don't speak of them as some powerful unstoppable force to be feared because they're not.

We kicked their asses up and down Iraq when they were AQI, and we can do it again. They're not going to come for your kids and they're not going to invade the United States. Will there be attacks here? Potentially there will be, but we stop most attacks (groups try a lot) and we will stop some of theirs. Maybe not all, but most. They're a cowardly group, they were before, they are now, and they will be in the future. Don't waste time being afraid of cowards.


That's not really directed to you, that's just kind of my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Ramhusker]

This religion has a problem, and the ones who follow it who aren't nutjobs need to be a bit more involved in reporting the ones who are nutjobs to authorities. All of the guys who were involved in the UK bombings were active in mosques and were loud about doing harm. Nobody said a thing.

Right now no other people who follow any other religion in the modern world are doing the hideous things that extremist Islamists are doing every day all over the world. This is a scourge on the planet.

Think about how much better life would be in so many areas of the world if these cowards didn't exist anymore. How much more peaceful and how much less fear there would be. They kill women for trying to learn to read and write for fucks sake.

It's true there are elements of each religion that are close minded. Are any of them seeing their fringe behave this way.

And one other thing........I always wonder when people say "well it's just like a tiny fraction of Muslims that are like this". Well guess what......there are millions upon millions of extremists around the world. It isn't like it's just a handful of people. In Afghanistan alone there are a few million at least that support the Taliban, maybe as many as 10 or 15 million for all we know.

@Angry Ram is 100% correct, this is WWIII. War has evolved as just as much as anything else has and just because there isn't a formal declaration of combat, and defined battlefields doesn't mean it isn't exactly what he just said it was. It is exactly 100% that.

WHY do so many fail to understand this? It seems so clear of an issue to comprehend.

 

[RAMBUSH]

I'm pretty sure we have a DELETED

Seriously? You thought this would fly here? This is a tough enough of a subject to allow to stay on here without this.

 

[LesBaker]

The Paris bombings are a symptom of being too tolerant of extremists. Something tells me they are waking up.

I'm sure you saw the news about what happened in Paris yesterday. If they hadn't have caught up with those dogs a lot more people would be dead today.

It's a war, albeit one that is evolved differently and fought differently than one army versus another. In order to fight it I've recommended an international coalition of small groups of combat ready groups trained and armed with some ground and air support that is lightning fast to respond and has a presence all over "trouble spots" to respond versus large scale army/military bases. Smaller groups trained to fight battles like France fought last night, able to act on intel to root out and kill these people before they can do damage. This military guerrilla type of response would cause a lot fewer civilian casualties too I bet.

It has to be done, this is a war that has to be fought. It'll take a long time, but the civilized world will win it not the extremists.

 

[RamFan503]

Our response, specifically State politicians saying they wont take Syrian refugees (which they really can't do, but whatever), people turning and attacking refugee camps, will only spur further attacks because to them it's what they want us to do. They're trying to drive a wedge, and a worryingly large number of people in the west are allowing themselves to be influenced by ISIS.

On most of what you wrote I agree with you BC. And while the different states would be hard pressed to prevent refugees from moving in once they are allowed into the US, I agree with their position of making a statement to the Fed that the US can ill afford to welcome in a people that have proven have ranks among them sympathetic toward ISIS and also that have extremely limited documentation for us to determine truly who they are or if they are who they claim to be.

People certainly should not be attacking refugee camps or in any way holding ethnicity against anyone but if not allowing refugees in is playing into ISIS's (or the extremist flavor of the year) hands then so be it.

Some may argue that if they are here, we are better equipped to show them how the US truly is about freedom and at the same time can keep better tabs on those who would have ties to fanatical Islam. I call BS on that. You cannot possibly allow 100,000 refugees from Syria into the country and have the capability to keep track of those who would try to subvert your system.

The refugees need to stay in their own countries and if they truly want a way out of the problems, they need to be part of the solution - not abandon it and hope the US gets them out of it. By doing so, we weaken the resolve in that region while putting our own citizens at home at greater risk. And at some point, these people have to defend their own homeland and rout out the scum rather than fleeing.

 

[RamFan503]

OK - My son found this and I thought it was pretty funny.

 

[LesBaker]

On most of what you wrote I agree with you BC. And while the different states would be hard pressed to prevent refugees from moving in once they are allowed into the US, I agree with their position of making a statement to the Fed that the US can ill afford to welcome in a people that have proven have ranks among them sympathetic toward ISIS and also that have extremely limited documentation for us to determine truly who they are or if they are who they claim to be.

People certainly should not be attacking refugee camps or in any way holding ethnicity against anyone but if not allowing refugees in is playing into ISIS's (or the extremist flavor of the year) hands then so be it.

Some may argue that if they are here, we are better equipped to show them how the US truly is about freedom and at the same time can keep better tabs on those who would have ties to fanatical Islam. I call BS on that. You cannot possibly allow 100,000 refugees from Syria into the country and have the capability to keep track of those who would try to subvert your system.

The refugees need to stay in their own countries and if they truly want a way out of the problems, they need to be part of the solution - not abandon it and hope the US gets them out of it. By doing so, we weaken the resolve in that region while putting our own citizens at home at greater risk. And at some point, these people have to defend their own homeland and rout out the scum rather than fleeing.

Having this discussion has to include the huge number of extremists that are out there. Just like there were tens of millions of Italians and Germans (among other nations peoples) that supported the Nazi party and fought on battlefields all over Europe. A quick search revealed that there were 18 million military men and women just in Germany.

Not all fought of course. But that said I have to say again this isn't "a small fraction", actually it is but it's a small fraction of such a large number that it's a staggering number on it's own. Of the millions of supporters of the Taliban how many are willing to commit atrocities? How many will only fight on a battlefield?

This isn't a few thousand sick motherfuckers. It's millions of crazed loons who are happy to see these terrorist acts happen. That makes it a war, different than any war so far but it is a war.

 

[RamFan503]

This isn't a few thousand sick motherfuckers. It's millions of crazed loons who are happy to see these terrorist acts happen. That makes it a war, different than any war so far but it is a war.

And a war that as much as possible needs to be fought on their soil rather than invite it to ours. I think anyone who thinks it is but a few thousand loons is indeed fooling themselves.

I agree also that to combat them throughout the world, we have to commit to small units that can be concise in taking them out. The rest of the world - especially people of their own region - also needs to use that in the strategy to cut them out of their own lands.

The idea that we can go in with a bunch of bombing runs and missile strikes or fight this war as if we are going up against a traditional enemy government is a flawed strategy.

Regardless, the people that would be refugees need to maintain their own lands.

 

[RamzFanz]

I'm a Christian and I don't feel the need to stop the brush from encompassing me in Oklahoma City, the Wisconsin Sikh Temple massacre, the Centennial Olympic Park bombing, and however many abortion clinic bombings and murders we are up to now. I am as closely tied to those terrorist acts as most Muslims are to ISIS - which is not at all.

Oklahoma City was not an act in the name of religion and Timothy McVeigh was not at all religious. I'm not sure why people insist on comparing this to what Islamic extremists do. Perhaps because it is the only major attack they can come up with that isn't by an Islamic extremist?

I don't expect Muslims to apologize for the terrorists. I expect them to scorn them, abolish speech of hate and violence within their religion, and turn them in, same as I would a Christian or anyone.

...... So pretty much all of them?

I'm not religious. I do attend church at times and help with charity events. Not once have I ever heard a word of oppression or violence from our female lead pastor or anyone attending. Quite the opposite. But, yes, of course I would shut them down if they did and we do.

I'm not talking about a faith in general but specific groups.

 

[Memento]

And a war that as much as possible needs to be fought on their soil rather than invite it to ours. I think anyone who thinks it is but a few thousand loons is indeed fooling themselves.

I agree also that to combat them throughout the world, we have to commit to small units that can be concise in taking them out. The rest of the world - especially people of their own region - also needs to use that in the strategy to cut them out of their own lands.

The idea that we can go in with a bunch of bombing runs and missile strikes or fight this war as if we are going up against a traditional enemy government is a flawed strategy.

Regardless, the people that would be refugees need to maintain their own lands.

When many of the refugees are women and children? When all of the men who would try to maintain their own lands would probably be murdered in cold blood by those sick terrorist fucks or their own government?

Imagine living in conditions like that. Imagine, for a second, if you were born there, an innocent person with a spouse and children, trying to get them into a better life than a war-torn country filled to the brim with corrupt dictatorships and terrorist organizations that will gladly kill you just for not agreeing with them in full. What about those people? There are far more people like that than there are active terrorist supporters.

As for Islam itself, do you guys know how many people follow Islam around the world? There are almost a billion people who are Muslim. Even with ten/fifteen million terrorist/terrorist supporters, that doesn't make the religion or the people who follow it evil. My mom and dad are legitimate pieces of shit. Does that make Judaism (mom) or Christianity (dad) evil? No.

I've seen so many atrocities committed by all races, all creeds, all religions, all kinds of people that it blurs after a while. The problem is extremism/radicalism. Any time you have radicals of any faction, you're going to have problems. You stomp them out, you stomp out the problems. And I'm not just talking about ISIS. I'm talking about anyone who is so hateful, so spiteful that they can't be negotiated with unless you're pointing a nuke at their faces. And even then...you still nuke them. Because like cockroaches, they'll always come back.

You start to deal with every radical that way, and then the world might see some peace.

 

[RamFan503]

When many of the refugees are women and children? When all of the men who would try to maintain their own lands would probably be murdered in cold blood by those sick terrorist fucks or their own government?

Last night's raid of a terrorist cell resulted in a WOMAN blowing herself up with a suicide belt. Several of the terrorists that have been arrested on our own soil have been women. These sick fucks have also recruited children to perform terrorist acts. Are you telling me that you or anyone can honestly determine who is a would-be terrorist in this mess?

Imagine living in conditions like that. Imagine, for a second, if you were born there, an innocent person with a spouse and children, trying to get them into a better life than a war-torn country filled to the brim with corrupt dictatorships and terrorist organizations that will gladly kill you just for not agreeing with them in full. What about those people? There are far more people like that than there are active terrorist supporters.

And at what point to they defend their home? At what point do you determine that the region is stabilized so that they may return home? At what point do you figure you have made a prison nation where only the terrorists exist? Which ones do you deem worthy of getting out? How do you tell an innocent they have to wait, when you just allowed in several that are anything but innocent? How many American lives do you put at risk and to what end?

As for Islam itself, do you guys know how many people follow Islam around the world? There are almost a billion people who are Muslim. Even with ten/fifteen million terrorist/terrorist supporters, that doesn't make the religion or the people who follow it evil. My mom and dad are legitimate pieces of crap. Does that make Judaism (mom) or Christianity (dad) evil? No.

That is a red herring. And frankly, I'm very tired of it. To say that I do not want refugees coming from an area of the world that has spawned terrorism and continues to infiltrate the world SPECIFICALLY THROUGH REFUGEES is somehow singling out the entire Muslim faith is insulting and the rhetoric that follows with it only aids in perpetuating the problem.

Quite simply, the best people to identify and get rid of these terrorists are the people they hide among. Like it or not, they generally hide among Muslim neighbors that would do us no harm. And often times we discover their neighbors had suspicion or knew the terrorists to be part of anti-Western groups only after it is too late.

I've seen so many atrocities committed by all races, all creeds, all religions, all kinds of people that it blurs after a while. The problem is extremism/radicalism. Any time you have radicals of any faction, you're going to have problems. You stomp them out, you stomp out the problems. And I'm not just talking about ISIS. I'm talking about anyone who is so hateful, so spiteful that they can't be negotiated with unless you're pointing a nuke at their faces. And even then...you still nuke them. Because like cockroaches, they'll always come back.

You start to deal with every radical that way, and then the world might see some peace.

And you do that by dispersing them around the world?

 

[RAMSinLA]

Muslim fanatics are very different from others. They read one book and only one book everyday of their lives. I think when Bush took us to war in Iraq part of his reasoning was to do for the middle east and northern Africa what the Marshall plan did for Europe and Japan after WW11. That only would have worked with reasonable humans. It was a huge mistake. The larger mistake was made by Obama when he left Iraq before the job was done. Maybe the job would have never gotten finished like in North Korea but he should have left troops there.
Now we have a big problem on our hands and everyone says we can't do anything to fix it. I say that's nonsense. We have the ability to rid the earth of evil doers like ISSI and we should do it now. The evil muslim killers do respond to one thing...force. We should unleash hell upon them and send them running for cover.
Those young people in that rock concert in Paris did nothing to deserve this carnage. If anyone thinks it couldn't happen here you are wrong. It could, I have a friend that sold concert tickets he bought for his daughter and her friends because this worried him so much. This crap has to stop. These people and people of their ilk have been kidnapping, hijacking, killing, chopping off heads and screaming Allahu Akbar all of my life and I'm a grandfather so it's been going on a long time. This didn't just start on 9-11-01. I've had it and I wish my president felt the same way. There I said it!

 

[RamFan503]

I've had it and I wish my president felt the same way. There I said it!

We've really tried to keep this thread open. There is a fine line between being about politics and/or religion and being a political/religious thread. This IMO crosses that line.

We may still end up locking this thread as it is borderline. Please everybody. No more comments like this or there will be no real choice in the matter.

 

[RAMSinLA]

We've really tried to keep this thread open. There is a fine line between being about politics and/or religion and being a political/religious thread. This IMO crosses that line.

We may still end up locking this thread as it is borderline. Please everybody. No more comments like this or there will be no real choice in the matter.

Sorry about that last sentence 503...if the line is that fine then maybe this thread should be locked.

 

[RamFan503]

Sorry about that last sentence 503...if the line is that fine then maybe this thread should be locked.

It may end up that way but I suppose we'll just try to walk that line for now.

Edit:

We discussed it and feel the thread has pretty much run its course. Thank you all for handling this tough issue with class.