Offiicial Goodhell Watch Thread

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RamFan503

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I've never understood the hate for Goodell either. It baffles me.

Guys go out and beat their kids, get caught taking drugs, beat their wives, and ingest steroids, and its the commissioner who bears the brunt of it?

Here's a tip - stop committing felonies and you won't get suspended!

Or maybe they NFL should just stop penalizing everyone and let it be the Old West? Caught cheating? No big deal. Drugs and domestic violence? Que sera sera. Bounty-Gate, Spy-Gate, Inflate-Gate? It's catchers catch can, we don't want anyone sticking their nose into the cheating and protecting the shield!

Sorry, but there are always going to be some who think a punishment is too light, and some who think it is overly harsh. But someone has to mete out the justice, or the game becomes a joke. Commissioner is a thankless job that by its nature inspires hate and ridicule, but what is the alternative?
I thought Goodell was a breath of fresh air when he came up - someone who was finally going to hold people accountable. Sorry - but his leadership has been a joke. Rules to protect the shield from lawsuits that really won't do anything but destroy the game, hap hazard arbitrary fines and suspensions, referees that just continue to get worse,

He has been just plain bad and frankly, with this much money at his disposal, he should be armed with an insane brain truss.
 

LesBaker

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Sorry Les but you come off acting like you are the lone voice of reason here as you know what goes on in the NFL behind closed doors. I'm not sure you have the background to be that guy.

How is the 2 game suspension of Rice an edict from the union when Goodell then goes back and suspends him indefinitely? If the union held so much sway, how did Goodell change it? The union sat back and watched as players got suspended for four games for smoking pot. And it wasn't even them that got the suspension practice for pot down to 2 games.

Rice had his suspension overturned because it was arbitrary. Y'know.. pretty much like the Brady decision. This is not a case of the players association having total sway here. It is a case of Goodell screwing the pooch. The league can establish league policy without the consent of the union and the union would be free to contest it in court on a case by case basis or else get the players to go on strike if they chose that route. It was the fact that the league did not establish a clear, set policy that got the suspensions overturned.

As to the butt buddy relationship between Kraft and Goodell, the slap on the wrist that Kraft received after Goodell destroyed evidence is anything but proof of what you are saying. It could have been so much worse and Kraft had to be delighted by how Goodell "handled" it. How the hell did he SMASH Kraft? And the Brady thing wasn't about deflated footballs as much as it was about not being able to just ignore yet ano9ther breaking of the rules by that organization. He couldn't just look the other way. So instead he produces a case with a million holes in it. OOPS!

And to the referees? They suck out loud over the past few years. Is it aimed at our team? Maybe in the case of the personal fouls. If enough coaches afraid to get their QBs smashed get in the ear of the refs, they can look for things that often aren't even there. They are human of course and they would be far from the only profession that could be influenced by powerful and persuasive people - and many coaches are just that. And of course, we are going to key on how they call OUR games.

But the fact that you disagree with other members is not what bugs me about your post. It is the calling of fans here clueless because they question the honesty of Goodell or the NFL itself or don't see it the way you do. When it comes to selling a product or protecting the shield, I put very little beyond Goodell, the other owners, or the NFL. When it comes to protecting a player's paycheck, I put very little beyond the union.

The two game suspension was written into the CBA Stu.........that was the protocol and that is what every other payer got for first time offenses for that crime. The video and people seeing it cause uproar and then the penalty had to change and the union OK'd it IIRC.

The union doesn't "sit back" and watch players get suspended. Every single transgression has penalties attached to it that the league and union agreed upon. From 'riods to domestic abuse to DUI and everything else, first time offender to chronic, it's all laid out in the CBA. Goodell and the union have to agree to do something different than what is "contracted".

Many posters don't understand this, they think Goodell makes up suspensions as he goes, when the CBA is dictating it, providing the framework. "He" doesn't suspend people 4 games for smoking pot, he and the union agreed that second time offenders get 4 games. It's been this way for years, people don't want to hear that it isn't his decision almost all the time, it's written out for him, it's not his call unless he can get the unuin to agree to a change he wants. Good luck with that.

How did he smash Kraft?

How about the two largest fines in the history of the NFL and taking draft picks which to my memory has never been done. It was public shaming, he wanted revenge because the Patriots didn't follow the script in the Spygate aftermath. Much of it was on Belichik who essentially lied to Goodell then lied about what he was going to say in the press conference.

Those two, Goodell and Kraft, had the relationship sour years ago. They used to be friends, but the Patriots have caused the NFL and therefore Goodell too much grief and the friendship couldn't withstand it.

Goodell gets a lot of grief, and he deserves some of it, but he takes the blame for an awful lot of shit he shouldn't.
 

LesBaker

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I thought Goodell was a breath of fresh air when he came up - someone who was finally going to hold people accountable. Sorry - but his leadership has been a joke. Rules to protect the shield from lawsuits that really won't do anything but destroy the game, hap hazard arbitrary fines and suspensions, referees that just continue to get worse,

He has been just plain bad and frankly, with this much money at his disposal, he should be armed with an insane brain truss.

He has helped as much as he has hurt, not saying that's great but a lot of the blame he gets he actually doesn't deserve. IMO the owners and league made too many concessions to get the revenue split they did.

The ref thing is messy and they caved WAY too soon on that. It was a disgrace and frankly the replacement guys weren't any worse, they were just easier targets. That was handled SO badly after the Monday Night game where the refs made a call the public didn't like. Yikes that was effed up.
 

RamFan503

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The two game suspension was written into the CBA Stu.........that was the protocol and that is what every other payer got for first time offenses for that crime. The video and people seeing it cause uproar and then the penalty had to change and the union OK'd it IIRC.

The union doesn't "sit back" and watch players get suspended. Every single transgression has penalties attached to it that the league and union agreed upon. From 'riods to domestic abuse to DUI and everything else, first time offender to chronic, it's all laid out in the CBA. Goodell and the union have to agree to do something different than what is "contracted".

Many posters don't understand this, they think Goodell makes up suspensions as he goes, when the CBA is dictating it, providing the framework. "He" doesn't suspend people 4 games for smoking pot, he and the union agreed that second time offenders get 4 games. It's been this way for years, people don't want to hear that it isn't his decision almost all the time, it's written out for him, it's not his call unless he can get the unuin to agree to a change he wants. Good luck with that.

How did he smash Kraft?

How about the two largest fines in the history of the NFL and taking draft picks which to my memory has never been done. It was public shaming, he wanted revenge because the Patriots didn't follow the script in the Spygate aftermath. Much of it was on Belichik who essentially lied to Goodell then lied about what he was going to say in the press conference.

Those two, Goodell and Kraft, had the relationship sour years ago. They used to be friends, but the Patriots have caused the NFL and therefore Goodell too much grief and the friendship couldn't withstand it.

Goodell gets a lot of grief, and he deserves some of it, but he takes the blame for an awful lot of crap he shouldn't.
Can you show me these suspension rules and fine structure? Cuz judges don't throw out suspensions for being arbitrary when they are in writing and are set policy. I agree that one would assume it should be detailed out but it keep biting Rog on the ass because he wants to keep the decision making fluid and under his control.

Simple fact is that no matter how u slice it, Rog has been screwing the pooch and you simply don't have evidence destroyed unless there is something very damning in it. If there is not then you just created a world of mistrust around you. And now it is coming out that he lied about the amount of evidence, the duration, and pretty much everything else.

And to the largest fines in NFL history, the cheating was unprecedented as well. Tell the fans and other teams that those fines are commensurate with what has been taken from them. They are not.
 

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I tend to get overwhelmed by too many "facts" that are surrounded in so much doubt. I'll admit I am overwhelmed by the magnitude of all the negative information regarding the commissioners office. I also tend to avoid judgement in hindsight when muddy waters prevented clear visioning in the first place.

I don't have an opinion on whether Roger is a good man or not, I'm not the type to sit back and say "He must go, NOW." But I do know that his job is terribly difficult and is full of handcuffing restraints from both sides. No win situation there, especially given the recent social and societal changes that have thrust all his decisions into the glare of a ratings hungry media that allows and/or influences the public to sit back and smugly mull over right and wrong then cast blame about like its old hand.

Irregardless of all the above, this new in information regarding spygate could eventually lead to his removal, or resignation. The public is like a rabid mob at times and sometimes the facts, right and wrong, and truth vs lies no longer matter.

I know if I was Roger, I'd take my millions earned and say "Fuck all of you, I quit." Then I'd go fishing.
 

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you simply don't have evidence destroyed unless there is something very damning in it
Yup
now it is coming out that he lied about the amount of evidence, the duration, and pretty much everything else
This even surprised me, and I've looked into the matter quite a bit. What amazes me now is how O'Leary's book on Spygate still did not uncover the depth & extent of deceipt.
Tell the fans and other teams that those fines are commensurate with what has been taken from them
I want Kraft removed as an NFL Owner, Belicheat & Ernie Adams banned from the league and the HOF.
 

Stranger

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I tend to get overwhelmed by too many "facts" that are surrounded in so much doubt. I'll admit I am overwhelmed by the magnitude of all the negative information regarding the commissioners office. I also tend to avoid judgement in hindsight when muddy waters prevented clear visioning in the first place.

I don't have an opinion on whether Roger is a good man or not, I'm not the type to sit back and say "He must go, NOW." But I do know that his job is terribly difficult and is full of handcuffing restraints from both sides. No win situation there, especially given the recent social and societal changes that have thrust all his decisions into the glare of a ratings hungry media that allows and/or influences the public to sit back and smugly mull over right and wrong then cast blame about like its old hand.

Irregardless of all the above, this new in information regarding spygate could eventually lead to his removal, or resignation. The public is like a rabid mob at times and sometimes the facts, right and wrong, and truth vs lies no longer matter.

I know if I was Roger, I'd take my millions earned and say "freak all of you, I quit." Then I'd go fishing.
Destroying evidence of cheating, perhaps in Championship games and SB's, is not enough to persuade you about Goodhell's character?
 

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Destroying evidence of cheating, perhaps in Championship games and SB's, is not enough to persuade you about Goodhell's character?

We've known about that for years. Nothing new to it. Motive might change things, but the only motive I see is doing "whats good for the game". So that is now bad judgment, not character.

I'm more focused on the character of the cheaters, not the police.

If you say Goodell must go because of poor judgement, thats different.
 

Akrasian

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I think destroying the evidence could be spun as an attempt to protect the NFL from what had already happened - i.e they couldn't change the outcome of games, but didn't want the integrity or lack thereof to leak out. So they destroyed the evidence while getting promises from the Patriots to be good boys, with the NFL cracking down harder if anything else happened. Except the Patriots weren't good boys going forward, and basically laughed at the NFL since they thought all the evidence was destroyed. Which is why Goodell cracked down over deflate gate and did it sloppily - he figured the Patriots wouldn't risk anything else getting out, somehow believing they had a shred of integrity.

If that is the case, Goodell isn't corrupt - just too stupid to do his job, counting on known cheaters to keep their word.
 

RamFan503

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We've known about that for years. Nothing new to it. Motive might change things, but the only motive I see is doing "whats good for the game". So that is now bad judgment, not character.

I'm more focused on the character of the cheaters, not the police.

If you say Goodell must go because of poor judgement, thats different.
The NFL has denied it for years and pretty much dismissed everyone as a bunch of crack pot conspiracy theorists. It is only now coming out how long and thorough the cheating had been going on and how many people have been keeping it secret by request of Rog.

It's actually anything but about poor judgement for me. It's about a cover up and the depth of what they were covering up. Maybe people aren't mentioning it but this is not only cheating but because of the millions involved and the careers ruined or not fulfilled, it is a high level criminal operation.

Hell - they threw Martha Stewart in jail because she had a conversation at a party that led to insider trading. That insider trading saved her from losing less than $50k. That's worse? What Goodhell has done should not only force him to resign but land him in jail. It also should be completely sufficient to warrant a real investigation not conducted by the NFL.
 

LesBaker

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Can you show me these suspension rules and fine structure? Cuz judges don't throw out suspensions for being arbitrary when they are in writing and are set policy. I agree that one would assume it should be detailed out but it keep biting Rog on the ass because he wants to keep the decision making fluid and under his control.

Simple fact is that no matter how u slice it, Rog has been screwing the pooch and you simply don't have evidence destroyed unless there is something very damning in it. If there is not then you just created a world of mistrust around you. And now it is coming out that he lied about the amount of evidence, the duration, and pretty much everything else.

And to the largest fines in NFL history, the cheating was unprecedented as well. Tell the fans and other teams that those fines are commensurate with what has been taken from them. They are not.

I think you can look up the CBA online. This isn't a big secret though Stu, it's been this way for awhile, many years. Each "crime" or whatever has specific penalties for first time, second time and so on. That's why the second time and third time the penalties get harsh and players can even get kicked out of the league, like Blackmon and Josh Gordon did recently did after several failed tests/issues. That's to ensure that there is equal, or close to it, treatment for all of the players.

In the Rice case Goodell had always stuck to the "first time" two game suspension that he had ALWAYS used and gave Rice 2 games. Then the video surfaced and the outcry from the public was so bad because they could SEE it, where there was no video of any other guys punching their lady in the face, so no major outrage. Hypocritical yes but its' true, the video changed things and Goodell responded with a longer suspension. It was overturned in court. It would be like you getting caught for a misdemeanor like shoplifting or something and getting a year in jail. In that instance the judge isn't allowed by law to assign that stiff of a penalty and so it would appealed and overturned.

In Brady's case there IS NO punishment for deflating balls, so it's arbitrary to begin with whether the commissioner CAN suspend him. You can bet it'll be an addendum to the CBA pretty soon though. That and without any direct evidence no judge in the world is going to say "yup, four games it is". It was a really simple open and shut case. There was no other decision for the judge and his opinion on football air pressure, the Patriots, Kraft or Goodell doesn't matter. The law is the law.

Just like the CBA is the CBA. If the NFL agrees to suspend a player for 4 games for their second failed drug test (I think the first time they get a pass) he cannot give them 6 games or 8 games.

As far as Goodell destroying evidence, hell yes he did it as fast as he could. And not IMO as a favor to the Patriots or Kraft because by then he was likely pissed as hell that they did it after being told to stop, then getting a memo to stop. He was protecting the NFL. Imagine if that shit leaked out!!! Wow there would be hell to pay so he did the smartest thing. I would have done the same I think. I don't know if you recall what happened with the press conference..........essentially part of the deal was that Belichik was going to admit that he was wrong to ignore the memo and apologize for taping signals. Instead he got up to the podium, admitted nothing and claimed he just misunderstood the memo. This is AFTER he met with Goodell and had said he would admit to it publicly. Supposedly Goodell was livid. And that's led to a frosty relationship between he and the Patriots/Kraft. Which is why I think it's funny that people think he shows favoritism, when he just stepped out of bounds in an attempt to punch them back over deflategate.

As far as the fines I understand what you are saying. But what could he do? He had to protect the NFL, and had he done what people would have liked then the outcry would have been worse.


Here is a link to the CBA..........

https://nfllabor.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/collective-bargaining-agreement-2011-2020.pdf

So I hope this helped clarify a few things, I could tell by the first line in your post you misunderstood.

Anyway to me the union bears some of the culpability because they negotiated some less than harsh penalties for some not so nice crimes, like domestic violence. But the owners had to make concessions because they were not negotiating off of the 55/45 split, that's why there was a lockout if you recall. The union let them have that, but in return got some things in exchange, I just wish they would have taken a few issues more seriously, like domestic violence.
 

LesBaker

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I tend to get overwhelmed by too many "facts" that are surrounded in so much doubt. I'll admit I am overwhelmed by the magnitude of all the negative information regarding the commissioners office. I also tend to avoid judgement in hindsight when muddy waters prevented clear visioning in the first place.

I don't have an opinion on whether Roger is a good man or not, I'm not the type to sit back and say "He must go, NOW." But I do know that his job is terribly difficult and is full of handcuffing restraints from both sides. No win situation there, especially given the recent social and societal changes that have thrust all his decisions into the glare of a ratings hungry media that allows and/or influences the public to sit back and smugly mull over right and wrong then cast blame about like its old hand.

Irregardless of all the above, this new in information regarding spygate could eventually lead to his removal, or resignation. The public is like a rabid mob at times and sometimes the facts, right and wrong, and truth vs lies no longer matter.

I know if I was Roger, I'd take my millions earned and say "freak all of you, I quit." Then I'd go fishing.

IMO he's been pretty good under fire. He could have VERY easily taken the low road and made comments that could have really hurt other people, like DSmith the union leader. Instead he's kept his mouth shut and let the bullets fly around him.

Some of the outrage aimed at him is media fueled, ESPN needs topics for the non stop new cycle and the dozens of talk shows they operate on their radio stations. It generates drama and drama sells.
 

Stranger

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We've known about that for years. Nothing new to it. Motive might change things, but the only motive I see is doing "whats good for the game". So that is now bad judgment, not character.

I'm more focused on the character of the cheaters, not the police.

If you say Goodell must go because of poor judgement, thats different.
Can you categorically state that Goodhell was not part of the cheating scandal?

What happens when the "Police" join the criminals ("Cheaters") in their crimes? How do we know what is what here?

At best, Goodhell destroyed evidence to protect the shield. At worst, Goodhell was part of the cheating scandal.

But if it was the former, how do you explain Bernie Kukar's complicity in the scandal during SB 36? Who would have had the power and the access to get an NFL umpire to so unfairly referee the most watched game in all of sport?
 

LesBaker

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Can you categorically state that Goodhell was not part of the cheating scandal?

What happens when the "Police" join the criminals ("Cheaters") in their crimes? How do we know what is what here?

At best, Goodhell destroyed evidence to protect the shield. At worst, Goodhell was part of the cheating scandal.

But if it was the former, how do you explain Bernie Kukar's complicity in the scandal during SB 36? Who would have had the power and the access to get an NFL umpire to so unfairly referee the most watched game in all of sport?

Good grief that is ridiculous.

Now Goodell was IN on Spygate LOL.........

I'm shaking my head at that.........
 

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If we keep the focus on Goodell, we'll let Bellicheck walk.

In an ideal situation you want Roger to go away on the basis that he fkd everything up, but you want to hang Bill Bellicheck for being evil.

This reminds me of the OJ Simpson case. The focus was on the police and not Nicole, eventually he walks away and the police and all the lawyers resign lol
 

RamFan503

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As far as Goodell destroying evidence, hell yes he did it as fast as he could. And not IMO as a favor to the Patriots or Kraft because by then he was likely pissed as hell that they did it after being told to stop, then getting a memo to stop. He was protecting the NFL. Imagine if that crap leaked out!!! Wow there would be hell to pay so he did the smartest thing.
Smart thing to do? You mean because cover ups are always the smart thing to do. Nixon and Martha Stewart agree.

I think you can look up the CBA online. This isn't a big secret though Stu, it's been this way for awhile, many years. Each "crime" or whatever has specific penalties for first time, second time and so on. That's why the second time and third time the penalties get harsh and players can even get kicked out of the league, like Blackmon and Josh Gordon did recently did after several failed tests/issues. That's to ensure that there is equal, or close to it, treatment for all of the players.
Read them for yourself Les. I did a search for suspension, discipline, and fines separately. I think you might be surprised at what you find. And the Blackmon and Gordon examples are bad ones. They were repeat offenders and the Commish finally allowed the teams to get out from underneath their contracts. That the suspensions were not overthrown had nothing to do with anything written into the CBA.

In the Rice case Goodell had always stuck to the "first time" two game suspension that he had ALWAYS used and gave Rice 2 games.
The rule states nothing about domestic violence or anything else specific that would have been used in the Rice suspension. Conduct detrimental (talk about an ambiguous statement) is all over the place and the suspension structure is between 1 - 4 games and is determined by the Commish. The player's association has rights to appeal within certain time lines and the Commissioner is required to give notice to both the suspended player and the players association within either 3 or 5 days depending.

In Brady's case there IS NO punishment for deflating balls, so it's arbitrary to begin with whether the commissioner CAN suspend him.
In Brady's case again, there is no written punishment specifically for cheating. Instead it says the following:

15. INTEGRITY OF GAME. Player recognizes the detriment to the League and professional football that would result from impairment of public confidence in the honest and orderly conduct of NFL games or the integrity and good character of NFL players. Player therefore acknowledges his awareness that if he accepts a bribe or agrees to throw or fix an NFL game; fails to promptly report a bribe offer or an attempt to throw or fix an NFL game; bets on an NFL game; knowingly associates with gamblers or gambling activity; uses or provides other players with stimulants or other drugs for the purpose of attempting to enhance on-field performance; or is guilty of any other form of conduct reasonably judged by the League Commissioner to be detrimental to the League or professional football, the Commissioner will have the right, but only after giving Player the opportunity for a hearing at which he may be represented by counsel of his choice, to fine Player in a reasonable amount; to suspend Player for a period certain or indefinitely; and/or to terminate this contract.

Again - ambiguous and arbitrary.
It was a really simple open and shut case. There was no other decision for the judge and his opinion on football air pressure, the Patriots, Kraft or Goodell doesn't matter. The law is the law.
The law is the law? The judge ruled that the suspension was arbitrary and that the NFL had no specific policy. This has been the case numerous times when the NFL has been challenged on these suspensions. It's not just Brady. It is due to ambiguous bylaws that are designed to keep the power to discipline in the hands of Goodhell.

Just like the CBA is the CBA. If the NFL agrees to suspend a player for 4 games for their second failed drug test (I think the first time they get a pass) he cannot give them 6 games or 8 games.
This is about the only thing that holds true. The Commissioner cannot suspend a player for more than four games for a myriad of "first offenses" that are determined as "detrimental". He can however suspend for only one game if he considers it a more minor offense - which is apparently exactly what he did with Marijuana use.

So I hope this helped clarify a few things, I could tell by the first line in your post you misunderstood.
No Les - I think you misunderstand. And I understand why. One would have to assume that this stuff IS structured and scheduled. One would have to think that it is NOT arbitrary or discretionary in practice and in regards to the bylaws and CBA. Read the CBA for yourself. Hell - you provided it. This commissioner was going to come in and establish a new code of conduct...blah blah blah. What he did was establish that he was the judge, jury, and executioner. That rarely holds up in court without actual established and consistent rules. And sorry but Goodhell is an idiot for assuming it would work and all it has done is make the NFL look like an inept organization.