Not impressed with the hands up BS displayed by the Rams WRs

[jrry32]

Wilson didn't state that Brown didn't have a gun that I've seen anywhere. How would he even know at that point? He couldn't.

The waist band is relevant in my mind because it would add to Wilson's belief that he was in immediate danger of severe bodily injury or death. The fact that Wilson claimed it AS WELL as other credible witnesses also serves to corroborate Wilson's accuracy. That would be a detail I wouldn't believe without supporting testimony myself. It's too easy to make up and unprovable.

The only witnesses I've found to be dishonest are all on Brown's side. I haven't read them all though.

Rereading it, you're right. I thought he had. Even if he didn't, it seems pretty clear the guy was unarmed from the circumstances. The whole waistband story seems like an excuse to me.

There's a witness on Wilson's side that has questionable credibility...Wilson.

 

[RamzFanz]

Rereading it, you're right. I thought he had. Even if he didn't, it seems pretty clear the guy was unarmed from the circumstances. The whole waistband story seems like an excuse to me.

There's a witness on Wilson's side that has questionable credibility...Wilson.

In what way? He's has no history of discipline issues. No history of abuse. No history of lying. No history of racism.

His story was 100% supported by the forensics and all of the credible witnesses. What is wrong with his credibility? Because he's a cop?

 

[jrry32]

In what way? He's has no history of discipline issues. No history of abuse. No history of lying. No history of racism.

His story was 100% supported by the forensics and all of the credible witnesses. What is wrong with his credibility? Because he's a cop?

His story doesn't make logical sense.
http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side

They make some good points. And the whole, I felt like a 5 year old kid holding onto Hulk Hogan bit is pretty laughable to me. Wilson is 6'4" 210+. He's no petite female. Michael Brown is Hulk Hogan and Wilson is a 5 year old? C'mon man. It's like the man was fighting Greg Robinson.

And then you see Wilson's injuries and his claims that he felt Brown would kill him with a punch just aren't credible. The guy's injuries were minor and Brown is punching into a car window.

And, of course, there's the reaching into the waistband and the whole stopping his attack to hand his friend the cigarillos. That's just not logical nor does it make any sort of sense. What person that was supposedly as angry as Brown is going to stop his attack to say, "Oh yea, hold these stolen goods."

I'm not going to sit here and say that Wilson is lying but I am going to say that his story doesn't seem credible in certain parts. It just doesn't seem logical. Which is why I would have liked to see this advanced forward so more evidence would be collected.

 

[Ram_Rally]

The choke hold ALONE should be reason to bring that freak to trial, people die from that and the police in NYC know that is why they aren't allowed to use it.

I'm still outraged hours after seeing the video and I'm going to say that if the guy was white I don't think the cops keep the pressure on, regardless of how big he was. He was subdued, the struggle was over and the cop kept going, he didn't let go. The obvious question is why did he go on? Because he didn't like the guy..........because he was resistant, maybe committing a crime and black. But that shouldn't be a freaking death sentence.

I could be wrong, and I don't know what is in this cops head and heart. But he and two other guys had a guy on the ground, under control and who was clearly struggling to breathe and they didn't do what they should have done. If that was me I have no doubt they would have let up or at least dialed down the pressure on my neck

Eric Garner was murdered and I'm stunned that the officer isn't being brought up on charges. I am flabbergasted that any decent and civil person could see it any other way.

I can't get the image of him on the stretcher out of my minds eye.

His screaming I can't breathe Wull forever be embedded into my memory.

 

[RamzFanz]

His story doesn't make logical sense.
http://www.vox.com/2014/11/25/7281165/darren-wilsons-story-side

They make some good points. And the whole, I felt like a 5 year old kid holding onto Hulk Hogan bit is pretty laughable to me. Wilson is 6'4" 210+. He's no petite female. Michael Brown is Hulk Hogan and Wilson is a 5 year old? C'mon man. It's like the man was fighting Greg Robinson.

And then you see Wilson's injuries and his claims that he felt Brown would kill him with a punch just aren't credible. The guy's injuries were minor and Brown is punching into a car window.

And, of course, there's the reaching into the waistband and the whole stopping his attack to hand his friend the cigarillos. That's just not logical nor does it make any sort of sense. What person that was supposedly as angry as Brown is going to stop his attack to say, "Oh yea, hold these stolen goods."

I'm not going to sit here and say that Wilson is lying but I am going to say that his story doesn't seem credible in certain parts. It just doesn't seem logical. Which is why I would have liked to see this advanced forward so more evidence would be collected.

The waistband statement was verified by several witnesses.

The cigar handoff was verified by Brown's accomplice Johnson.

I found the Hulk Hogan statement an exaggeration too. But Wilson WAS sitting and being attacked and Wilson was bigger. I also wonder about the "next blow could knock me out" comment but he was being attacked and perception and adrenalin don't play well together. To me, it wouldn't matter anyway. He WAS being attacked and had every right to pull his gun. Brown did go for the gun which gave him the right to shoot. Then Brown did charge giving Wilson the reason to believe his life was in danger.

 

[jrry32]

The waistband statement was verified by several witnesses.

The cigar handoff was verified by Brown's accomplice Johnson.

I found the Hulk Hogan statement an exaggeration too. But Wilson WAS sitting and being attacked and Wilson was bigger. I also wonder about the "next blow could knock me out" comment but he was being attacked and perception and adrenalin don't play well together. To me, it wouldn't matter anyway. He WAS being attacked and had every right to pull his gun. Brown did go for the gun which gave him the right to shoot. Then Brown did charge giving Wilson the reason to believe his life was in danger.

And how many times did Johnson change his story before "verifying it"? He's not a credible witness.

 

[Dodgersrf]

His screaming I can't breathe Wull forever be embedded into my memory.

Very sickening.
Also, not being able to breath would absolutely cause a person to struggle for air.
Pissed me off.

 

[Mackeyser]

As someone who's both an asthmatic and someone who rolls Brazilian Jiu Jitsu (so I've been in my share of chokes including triangles, arm chokes and rear naked chokes aka "choke holds"), I can tell you a couple of things.

1) the Officer couldn't have been applying the choke well, because a well applied choke negates the ability to breathe...at ALL. Trust me on this. If someone who KNOWS how to apply a proper choke does it, not only will you NOT breath, but you'll also be unconscious within a matter of seconds. It's why on the mat, as hard as we go, we always have someone who's just watching and even then, you check to make sure that the guy is responsive in your choke, if not...let go. In a competition, you leave it to the ref. Otherwise, it's just a roll. If a guy refuses to tap even when he's in real danger, you just don't roll with him because he's also likely to not respect YOU if you're in danger.

2) as an asthmatic, I can tell you that unless you've been near drowning, you can't know the panic...sheer, unadulterated terror that comes from not being able to breathe. To expect someone who's locking up to behave in a calm manner is like expecting a drowning person to go limp and be patient while they float to the surface. No, your brain is in full panic mode SCREAMING at you that you need oxygen... NOW! Frankly, I'm surprised that he wasn't flailing about more vigorously.

There is a reason that for the purpose of non-lethal restraint, the NYPD removed rear choke holds from their field manual... and it came from a rash of fatalities due to their use. Different physiologies are far more sensitive to chokes than others and it really doesn't take much to cause real, lasting and permanent damage.

The very idea that the officer even THOUGHT to use a choke is gravely concerning. Officers should be able to protect themselves AND the community which is why being properly trained in non-lethal techniques are so important. I know there are plenty of BJJ and Krav Maga schools that train Police and Military in these techniques. As well, the Marine Martial Arts school is starting to share their hand to hand techniques with various agencies. The point is that with all the resources available, there is very little excuse, especially in NYC, for an officer to resort to a banned lethal technique.

 

[Mojo Ram]

Don't challenge the cops. Verbally, physically or with body language. This applies to everyone but especially if you're a black man(apparently).
Don't be stupid.

 

[Boffo97]

Don't challenge the cops. Verbally, physically or with body language. This applies to everyone but especially if you're a black man(apparently).
Don't be stupid.

That's what I think it boils down to. Even if you think they're in the wrong, it's better to sort it out at the station later.

The "hands up" gesture could be a much more positive thing if that was the message.

 

[Mojo Ram]

That's what I think it boils down to. Even if you think they're in the wrong, it's better to sort it out at the station later.

The "hands up" gesture could be a much more positive thing if that was the message.

Agreed, and for the record i don't like cops much from my own experiences in life. I've crossed paths with a few good cops, but there are many out there who acted like they were looking for any excuse to kick my ass. You have to be a different breed to be a cop IMO. Unfortunately that means being a dickhead with a gun and a chip on your shoulder in many cases.

Having said all that, i respect the amount of bravery, stress and anxiety that goes with being a cop in America. I couldn't do it.

But these "kids" getting killed were stupid for treating cops and these situations like they were playing games.
Don't bring your oppressed culture to a traffic stop. You're going to lose and the cop will win every time.

 

[Thordaddy]

Agreed, and for the record i don't like cops much from my own experiences in life. I've crossed paths with a few good cops, but there are many out there who acted like they were looking for any excuse to kick my ass. You have to be a different breed to be a cop IMO. Unfortunately that means being a dickhead with a gun and a chip on your shoulder in many cases.

Having said all that, i respect the amount of bravery, stress and anxiety that goes with being a cop in America. I couldn't do it.

But these "kids" getting killed were stupid for treating cops and these situations like they were playing games.
Don't bring your oppressed culture to a traffic stop. You're going to lose and the cop will win every time.

Not to single you out Mojo and breaking my decision to refrain from this thread ,I can't remember anyone here who doesn't have some kind of ax to grind with cops ,saying you don't like cops isn't that the kind of prejudicial thinking you'd be guilty of if you said you don't like black people?

That's my issue with the gesture ,it's as bigoted as the n word ,or skin heads wearing swastikas ,it infers all cops are going to shoot a black man first chance they get, and if that was true there would be a lot of dead bodies on the streets of Ferguson .

 

[-X-]

,saying you don't like cops isn't that the kind of prejudicial thinking you'd be guilty of if you said you don't like black people?

Not really. It's like saying you don't like politicians or slaughterhouse workers. Disliking a certain profession because of the abuse of power some of them exhibit is perfectly normal; and while it might be prejudicial, it's a different animal than racism and/or oppression altogether.

 

[Mojo Ram]

Not to single you out Mojo and breaking my decision to refrain from this thread ,I can't remember anyone here who doesn't have some kind of ax to grind with cops ,saying you don't like cops isn't that the kind of prejudicial thinking you'd be guilty of if you said you don't like black people?

That's my issue with the gesture ,it's as bigoted as the n word ,or skin heads wearing swastikas ,it infers all cops are going to shoot a black man first chance they get, and if that was true there would be a lot of dead bodies on the streets of Ferguson .

Not really. It's like saying you don't like politicians or slaughterhouse workers. Disliking a certain profession because of the abuse of power some of them exhibit is perfectly normal; and while it might be prejudicial, it's a different animal than racism and/or oppression altogether.

 

[jrry32]

And it gets even fucking better. This might just be worse than the Eric Garner incident:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...ont-indict-officers-in-ohio-wal-mart-shooting

Here's the video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV6Qhk


At 1:25, you can see the officers sneaking up and at 1:30, you can see them shoot the man.

His crime? Holding an air rifle BB gun that WalMart sells while shopping at the store and speaking on the phone.

How on fucking earth do you not indict them for killing a man who committed no crime?

 

[Thordaddy]

Not really. It's like saying you don't like politicians or slaughterhouse workers. Disliking a certain profession because of the abuse of power some of them exhibit is perfectly normal; and while it might be prejudicial, it's a different animal than racism and/or oppression altogether.

Sure it is but it doesn't mean you aren't judging the whole because of the few, look I can be as prejudiced as the next guy, doesn't mean I don't recognize it in myself and catch myself before I do something bigoted.
See here's the thing when we say "you're a racist" ,if you can't finish the sentence honestly with "and I'm not" who the hell are you to to judge me?
I believe the thought process is pretty well the same self justification for a global but erroneous attitude ,I hate the press , I don't go out and hunt them up to terrorize. When we ALL get to the realization that ALL OF US ( black ,brown,white ,red or yellow) have racial attitudes that they just fit on a continuum and we just KEEP imposing our standards of what constitutes racism ,that we aren't going to always agree, if we can be that honest with ourselves and more importantly with uthers we can have a constructive dialogue .

There are about 780,000 police officers in the US ,if anyone had interaction with 1% of them it would be 7,800 cops I doubt most cops even do that, so judging them based on our experience is a pretty poor sample size and forming a love or hate thang ,to go to the extent of rioting over an attitude formed by the few cases where the interactions turned out the way the Wilson/Brown case did, to advance the idea so demonstrably to others that ALL these cops would shoot an unarmed black man even if he had his hands up is IMO NO different than racism towards another group.

IOW the rioters CAN'T finish the sentence with " and I'm not" so who the hell are they and who the hell are the people who wear those idiotic t shirts to judge, to advance their bigotry? Either we judge people ONE AT A TIME ,on the content of their character, or we find a reason to judge them on an aspect about them that we've decided is our excuse to lump them in with those we think we are justified in judging .

BTW I don't like politicians ,but I vote ,and mostly for what I consider the lesser evil , but truth be known many of those guys are no worse than I'd probably be in their situation,I don't doubt if a guy as big and strong as Mike Brown started kicking my ass in my
j cop car ( one on one here) I'd shoot his ass ,he wouldn't get ten feet from the car,and I don't believe anyone who says they wouldn't cuz until you are in the situation you don't really know.
GOIN scripture on ya here. The story of how Jesus tells Peter that Peter will deny him three times before the DNA rifle crows and Peter say ,"no man you can always count on me " ,I think Peter meant it , and really failed himself , but when he said it he wasn't at the end of a Roman sword and once there the situation was way different . We think we know what we will do, but until we are in the situation we never really know. That is the lesson I take from that regardless whether you believe in any deity ,the lesson is what matters and I think it's just that.
Runnin late gotta go to a kids tournament ,may even coach a few matches.

 

[snackdaddy]

And it gets even freaking better. This might just be worse than the Eric Garner incident:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...ont-indict-officers-in-ohio-wal-mart-shooting

Here's the video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV6Qhk


At 1:25, you can see the officers sneaking up and at 1:30, you can see them shoot the man.

His crime? Holding an air rifle BB gun that WalMart sells while shopping at the store and speaking on the phone.

How on freaking earth do you not indict them for killing a man who committed no crime?

 

[snackdaddy]

And it gets even freaking better. This might just be worse than the Eric Garner incident:
http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way...ont-indict-officers-in-ohio-wal-mart-shooting

Here's the video:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9FtNOV6Qhk


At 1:25, you can see the officers sneaking up and at 1:30, you can see them shoot the man.

His crime? Holding an air rifle BB gun that WalMart sells while shopping at the store and speaking on the phone.

How on freaking earth do you not indict them for killing a man who committed no crime?

That was a bad thing to happen to an innocent man. Seems like there were several things that caused this whole fiasco. But if that idiot who made the 911 call didn't do what he did Crawford would be alive today. I would say that guy was primarily responsible.

I woulda liked to see the police use better discretion. But I don't know whats going through their heads after that call. And it would look like a real weapon to them in the heat of the moment.

And finally, maybe I look at things differently but I wouldn't pick what looks like a real weapon and walk around a large store with it. I would think that would make people real nervous.

Then again, I don't know the kids mental condition. Or if he just did goofy things kids do. I have a son about his age and I could see him doing something like that. He's immature for his age and does goofy things. But he shouldn't have to die for it. I feel for the kids family. Just a perfect storm of bad luck came together and cost him his life.

 

[-X-]

Sure it is but it doesn't mean you aren't judging the whole because of the few

So? The world's an imperfect place sometimes. Not everybody can be as PC as other people would like for them to be. I don't like politicians. Any of them. And sure, there might be a few great ones, but that doesn't mean I'm going to change my perception of the whole because of a few good ones. I don't care for cops either. I respect them, and rely on them, but I still don't care for them. Despite the fact that there are some good ones. I'd never go out of my way to disparage a police officer or outwardly defy their authority when they're trying to exercise it, so I'm sure the fact that I'm judging all of them is of little consequence to them. It seems your problem is the way I think or process my own feelings. Unfortunately, nobody has dominion over that other than me. And I'm not perfect. Life experiences have helped me form my opinions, and that's just the way it is.

to advance the idea so demonstrably to others that ALL these cops would shoot an unarmed black man even if he had his hands up is IMO NO different than racism towards another group.

Well, since the narrative by the rioters is that white cops can freely gun down black males with impunity, then it *is* racism*. There are tons of incidences of black cops gunning down black males, and white cops gunning down white males, but I'm not aware of any riots or Nationwide protests stemming from those incidents. There's even a case right now in Alabama of a black cop killing a white kid who was allegedly unarmed. None of that matters, because there isn't the *stigma of oppression attached to them.

 

[Mackeyser]

And contrast all that with incidents like this:

http://www.mlive.com/news/kalamazoo/index.ssf/2014/06/dash_cam_footage_from_open_car.html

In Kalamazoo, MI, a belligerent WHITE man with a LOADED rifle stood on a public road. Was he instantly shot dead like the man just outside Ferguson who stole those two sodas in 23 seconds? Certainly he was MORE of a threat. But...nope.

The cops spent 40 minutes talking him down, eventually getting the gun WHICH THEY RETURNED TO HIM THE NEXT DAY!!!

Now can anyone honestly tell me that if this guy was black that he wouldn't have been dead within a few minutes with that loaded rifle?

And that's the REAL issue. Police treat these incidents differently.

Oh, and the Walmart police weren't indicted, either, even though it's clear that they provided the man zero instruction to disarm or any chance to comply with any instructions... it's apparently NOT a crime to just take someone's word for it that "nebulous black man with a something that looks like a gun is a significant threat to life and property" and simply kill him without any further information. I mean, the officers didn't even take the time to do a decent reconnoiter.

Watch the video. I think the officers did a fine job.

I just wish that behavior extended to ALL members of the community, including people of color.