Not impressed with the hands up BS displayed by the Rams WRs

[jrry32]

You may want to revisit that in your studies. Even an idiot twit who starts a fight is entitled to self defense if the other person begins to get the better of him or pulls out a stick or the court finds out he has training. He is not going to get away with murder - though they may determine it man slaughter - but he can use the defense and it has worked to get off more minor charges.

Anyway, 'm done with this thread. It seems we are just hashing and rehashing. If you guys want to keep going on it, just be civil. I have already asked the other mods if they think it is just time to let this thread end.

Cheers and Go RAMS!!!

Depends. If he uses non-deadly force and the other person uses deadly force, self-defense will become available to him again...depending on the jurisdiction. If the force used by both is proportional, self-defense is not available to him. The other way that self-defense would be available is if he made a good faith attempt to withdraw.

But if you provoke a fight, the force from both sides is proportional, and you make no attempt to withdraw...you are not afforded self-defense.

The fact that it was a mutual fight is considered in sentencing, though.

 

[RamzFanz]

Wilson was retreating? Wilson was not retreating. He had a vehicle. He made no attempt to retreat. He attempted to pursue Brown.

Being unarmed is absolutely not irrelevant to self-defense when you're using deadly force. How would mace stop a guy charging you? I think we know how it would.

I'm guessing you haven't reviewed the evidence and are relying on news accounts? I'm only saying that because the evidence isn't being covered in the news, it's not an insult of any kind.

This is what the forensic evidence, Wilson's testimony, and credible witness testimony describes:

Wilson heard about the robbery while on a call helping a sick child. He offered to assist. He was given a description of Brown. He then saw Brown in the Road with Johnson. He told them to leave the road. They refused. He had driven past but realised Brown fit the description and had the cigars. He called for assistance. (all supported by radio call recordings and credible witness accounts). He backed up and attempted to get out.

Brown slammed his car door (supported by a palm print on door and credible witnesses). Brown started assaulting him (supported by Wilson's injuries, credible witnesses, and DNA in the vehicle). Wilson and Brown went for his gun (supported by DNA on the gun, two shots fired into the car, a wound on Brown's hand from the second shot, Brown's blood in car). Brown ran after he was shot and Wilson exited his car and pursued. Brown stopped, turned, and came at Wilson (supported by blood trail, credible witnesses, wounds). Wilson called out loudly and repeatedly to stop and get on the ground (according to witnesses including Brown's friend). Brown kept coming so Wilson opened fire while back pedaling (supported by where the casings were found and credible witnesses). Wilson paused shooting after he knew Brown was hit to give him a chance to surrender while calling out to stop and get down (supported by audio recording, casings locations and credible witnesses). Brown kept coming at Wilson and Wilson kept retreating (supported by blood trail, credible witnesses, and shell casings). Wilson opened fire again delivering the fatal shot when Brown reached 8' away. Brown stopped and Wilson stopped firing with one bullet left.

So, I disagree with your assessment that non-lethal force would have worked. 8' from fighting for his life again with a 6'5" 290 LB man and one bullet left.

And no, the presence or lack thereof of a weapon isn't necessary for self defense. Wilson had a reasonable belief he was in danger of great bodily harm or death if he didn't stop Brown from charging. Wilson is a cop. He was pursuing Brown because A) Obviously, it was his job to pursue a felon and protect any more victims and B) According to Wilson, He wanted to keep him in sight until his backup arrived which he knew was very close.

 

[BonifayRam]

It doesn't have to stop him in his tracks. You hit someone with mace in their face, they're not going to have the same ability to attack you.......

Hitting a moving person in the face with a stream of mace is not very easy. Mace/Pepper spray does not have the same effect on all individuals. Pepper spray has its place in certain control area & situations, this situation we are talking about would NOT be one.

I know one thing from over 3 decades of mega use of all kinds sizes types of Mace/Pepper Spray ......it is far from a sure thing jrry32,even if you are extremely fortunate to get the pepper spray into the eyes or nose areas. If you did get lucky with your bursts its very doubtful IMO that it would have stopped the young man.

 

[jrry32]

I'm guessing you haven't reviewed the evidence and are relying on news accounts? I'm only saying that because the evidence isn't being covered in the news, it's not an insult of any kind.

This is what the forensic evidence, Wilson's testimony, and credible witness testimony describes:

Wilson heard about the robbery while on a call helping a sick child. He offered to assist. He was given a description of Brown. He then saw Brown in the Road with Johnson. He told them to leave the road. They refused. He had driven past but realised Brown fit the description and had the cigars. He called for assistance. (all supported by radio call recordings and credible witness accounts). He backed up and attempted to get out.

Brown slammed his car door (supported by a palm print on door and credible witnesses). Brown started assaulting him (supported by Wilson's injuries, credible witnesses, and DNA in the vehicle). Wilson and Brown went for his gun (supported by DNA on the gun, two shots fired into the car, a wound on Brown's hand from the second shot, Brown's blood in car). Brown ran after he was shot and Wilson exited his car and pursued. Brown stopped, turned, and came at Wilson (supported by blood trail, credible witnesses, wounds). Wilson called out loudly and repeatedly to stop and get on the ground (according to witnesses including Brown's friend). Brown kept coming so Wilson opened fire while back pedaling (supported by where the casings were found and credible witnesses). Wilson paused shooting after he knew Brown was hit to give him a chance to surrender while calling out to stop and get down (supported by audio recording, casings locations and credible witnesses). Brown kept coming at Wilson and Wilson kept retreating (supported by blood trail, credible witnesses, and shell casings). Wilson opened fire again delivering the fatal shot when Brown reached 8' away. Brown stopped and Wilson stopped firing with one bullet left.

So, I disagree with your assessment that non-lethal force would have worked. 8' from fighting for his life again with a 6'5" 290 LB man and one bullet left.

And no, the presence or lack thereof of a weapon isn't necessary for self defense. Wilson had a reasonable belief he was in danger of great bodily harm or death if he didn't stop Brown from charging. Wilson is a cop. He was pursuing Brown because A) Obviously, it was his job to pursue a felon and protect any more victims and B) According to Wilson, He wanted to keep him in sight until his backup arrived which he knew was very close.

I've reviewed the evidence. I read his testimony. His story is questionable at certain parts. But getting past that, that's not retreating. Backpedaling while firing is not retreating(speaking strictly of the legal definition). He was pursuing Brown which led up to the incident where he fired the fatal shots.

As you said, backup was on their way. He chose to get out of the car to pursue this big man.(although Wilson was no small man, himself)

And there's a difference between a weapon being irrelevant to self-defense and not necessary. I never said it was necessary. I said it wasn't irrelevant.

I'm just not sold that it was necessary to kill Brown. I think Wilson put himself in a bad situation because he didn't wait for backup and was forced to shoot a man who didn't need to be killed. I still feel that he could have used non-lethal force...but I wasn't present so that belief isn't educated. However, even if he couldn't use non-lethal force, he could have pursued in his vehicle at a safe distance and waited for backup. I get that he's a police officer but if Brown really was so big and threatening, I don't see how you can argue that you should have pursued him on your own.

 

[jrry32]

Hitting a moving person in the face with a stream of mace is not very easy. Mace/Pepper spray does not have the same effect on all individuals. Pepper spray has its place in certain control area & situations, this situation we are talking about would NOT be one.

I know one thing from over 3 decades of mega use of all kinds sizes types of Mace/Pepper Spray ......it is far from a sure thing jrry32,even if you are extremely fortunate to get the pepper spray into the eyes or nose areas. If you did get lucky with your bursts its very doubtful IMO that it would have stopped the young man.

Fair enough. I can understand that argument. Still, I believe he could have avoided this whole situation by waiting for backup and not pursuing on his own on foot(could have pursued at a safe distance in his vehicle) when this guy was supposedly so big, threatening, and physically imposing.

 

[Ramhusker]

What a bunch of crap! Wilson murdered that kid! That is irrefutable fact!

You should go straight to the cops with your irrefutable facts. Evidently, you know something we and they don't know. Please, get it out there man so justice can be served!!!!!!!

 

[Ramhusker]

He was originally being questioned about a fight he had been involved in. From all accounts I have read, he was only involved in that he was breaking up the fight. He apparently did this several times before and was known for stopping violence in his neighborhood. Then it got onto whether he was back to selling untaxed cigarettes - which he denied. Supposedly the cops wanted to strap his hands while they questioned him. WTF? Who wouldn't tell them not to touch him? The only thing I saw him do in the video was try to pull his hands away from the cops that were grabbing at him.

Look - I agree that there is too much want by some within special interest groups to divide and segregate. But this was not one of those cases. I don't know if the cop did it because Garner was black. I only know that the cop at MINIMUM committed man slaughter and should at MINIMUM be prosecuted to determine if he should pay for his crime. Go ahead and get in a normal fight and choke someone to death. You think you are not going to get tried? A bouncer or security guard chokes someone out. Is he going to go without trial?

No indictment to sort out the facts? Really? It almost is like someone wanted rioting in the streets.

Now, we might be getting somewhere. But you could probably leave out the "almost".

 

[RamzFanz]

I've reviewed the evidence. I read his testimony. His story is questionable at certain parts. But getting past that, that's not retreating. Backpedaling while firing is not retreating(speaking strictly of the legal definition). He was pursuing Brown which led up to the incident where he fired the fatal shots.

As you said, backup was on their way. He chose to get out of the car to pursue this big man.(although Wilson was no small man, himself)

And there's a difference between a weapon being irrelevant to self-defense and not necessary. I never said it was necessary. I said it wasn't irrelevant.

I'm just not sold that it was necessary to kill Brown. I think Wilson put himself in a bad situation because he didn't wait for backup and was forced to shoot a man who didn't need to be killed. I still feel that he could have used non-lethal force...but I wasn't present so that belief isn't educated. However, even if he couldn't use non-lethal force, he could have pursued in his vehicle at a safe distance and waited for backup. I get that he's a police officer but if Brown really was so big and threatening, I don't see how you can argue that you should have pursued him on your own.

Yes. He could have waited for backup or remained in his car.

So the question would be is that what he was trained to do? The answer is no according to his trainer who testified. You point out that Brown was unarmed and Wilson was armed. What justification would he have not to at least assure a felon didn't escape only to harm someone else? He's a cop. It's his job. It's not his job to stay safe at all times and let criminals escape.

The choice of living or dieing belonged to Brown. He committed the crimes. He attacked the cop. He refused to stop or get down.

In that Wilson didn't shoot Brown from behind even after being attacked and repeatedly giving Brown the opportunity to live, I think he showed remarkable restraint.

This entire "hands up don't shoot Wilson is a racist" story was completely made up. No credible witness that I've read so far is saying this is what happened.

 

[Ramhusker]

Yes. He could have waited for backup or remained in his car.

So the question would be is that what he was trained to do? The answer is no according to his trainer who testified. You point out that Brown was unarmed and Wilson was armed. What justification would he have not to at least assure a felon didn't escape only to harm someone else? He's a cop. It's his job. It's not his job to stay safe at all times and let criminals escape.

The choice of living or dieing belonged to Brown. He committed the crimes. He attacked the cop. He refused to stop or get down.

In that Wilson didn't shoot Brown from behind even after being attacked and repeatedly giving Brown the opportunity to live, I think he showed remarkable restraint.

This entire "hands up don't shoot Wilson is a racist" story was completely made up. No credible witness that I've read so far is saying this is what happened.

Credible being the key word there.

 

[Boffo97]

At least in the Brown case, there's one important thing about the lack of indictment not being discussed.

Right now, it seems both sides agree that the DA didn't feel a case against Wilson was winnable. Suppose he then went ahead with such a case and lost it. As I've said before, I don't think that would make a single one of Wilson's critics say "Oh. I guess he did act properly." (see the insistence on the hands up gesture even though we know its basis to be utterly false now.)

So it'd be a waste of court time and probably millions of tax dollars. IN ADDITION though, and here is the point, in the event any kind of further evidence comes up, not indicting Wilson NOW leaves the door open for indicting later. Whereas after a failed trial, Wilson could hold a press conference admitting he acted improperly and there still couldn't be a trial thanks to the 5th Amendment.

 

[RamzFanz]

@jrry32 You seem to be an honest guy who just has a lot of passion for what he believes. I've been accused of the same more than once!

On this issue, I think might be missing some facts.

 

[RamzFanz]

Credible being the key word there.

And by credible. I mean not caught in outright lies or fabrications.

One witness, when she realised she was caught in a lie, attempted to steal and erase the recorder! It was shockingly funny! Then, she gives a second interview, admits she was lying, and lies all over again!

Johnson was discredited long ago. His story was wildly unbelievable and has since changed many times. He himself would have no credibility in court because of his past actions.

Others say things that couldn't be true. One witness claimed Wilson stood over Brown after he fell face first and unloaded his gun into him until it was clicking. Problem is, there were no hits from the back, he didn't empty his gun. and only the gun would lock open if it were empty and not click.

So I'm not saying something is suspicious when I don't find them credible, I mean outright blatant lies. Complete fabrications.

EVERY witness I've read that didn't say anything that couldn't be true says Brown lowered his head and charged at Wilson, Wilson was yelling to stop and get down, Wilson paused but Brown kept coming, and that Wilson was retreating. AND several confirm he went for his waist band. Some say he was pulling up his shorts, but he reached for his waist band.

 

[Sum1]

Jared Cook was trending down in my book before the hands up garbage...and that certainly only enhanced that...but this statement is enough for me.

"They have to understand that we're ambassadors for them as well as other parts of St. Louis. It's a common place for people to get together and have fun. It's the Edward Jones Dome, baby. The greatest show on turf, baby. How could you not want to have fun and enjoy that?"

Mr. Cook...you are not part of the Greatest Show on Turf. Those guys didn't drop passes as often as they caught them like you, sir.

 

[Ramhusker]

This thread has over 3000 views now and feels like Ground Hog Day

 

[Boffo97]

This thread has over 3000 views now and feels like Ground Hog Day

It's recurring problem with political (and religious) threads. Everyone comes in already having made up their minds and feeling like THEIR POV is the only rational one if you've really seen the evidence and thought about the situation. So instead of discussion, you get attempts to enlighten those idiots who think differently than you to "the truth".

It's an easy trap to fall into regardless of whichever side you come in to the argument taking.

 

[jrry32]

Jared Cook was trending down in my book before the hands up garbage...and that certainly only enhanced that...but this statement is enough for me.

"They have to understand that we're ambassadors for them as well as other parts of St. Louis. It's a common place for people to get together and have fun. It's the Edward Jones Dome, baby. The greatest show on turf, baby. How could you not want to have fun and enjoy that?"

Mr. Cook...you are not part of the Greatest Show on Turf. Those guys didn't drop passes as often as they caught them like you, sir.

Well, Cook has 3 drops on the season...I think he has more than 3 catches.

And I don't see the issue with Cook saying he's part of the greatest show on turf. At least the players are aspiring to something.

 

[jrry32]

And by credible. I mean not caught in outright lies or fabrications.

One witness, when she realised she was caught in a lie, attempted to steal and erase the recorder! It was shockingly funny! Then, she gives a second interview, admits she was lying, and lies all over again!

Johnson was discredited long ago. His story was wildly unbelievable and has since changed many times. He himself would have no credibility in court because of his past actions.

Others say things that couldn't be true. One witness claimed Wilson stood over Brown after he fell face first and unloaded his gun into him until it was clicking. Problem is, there were no hits from the back, he didn't empty his gun. and only the gun would lock open if it were empty and not click.

So I'm not saying something is suspicious when I don't find them credible, I mean outright blatant lies. Complete fabrications.

EVERY witness I've read that didn't say anything that couldn't be true says Brown lowered his head and charged at Wilson, Wilson was yelling to stop and get down, Wilson paused but Brown kept coming, and that Wilson was retreating. AND several confirm he went for his waist band. Some say he was pulling up his shorts, but he reached for his waist band.

There were a lot of dishonest witnesses. It's a much more iffy issue than people make it out to be.

Although, I'll say this much more, Wilson knew he didn't have a gun(stated as much) so I don't see why the waistband is relevant.

 

[bluecoconuts]

@jrry32 You seem to be an honest guy who just has a lot of passion for what he believes. I've been accused of the same more than once!

On this issue, I think might be missing some facts.

I think he also enjoys going all law school on us.

 

[RamzFanz]

There were a lot of dishonest witnesses. It's a much more iffy issue than people make it out to be.

Although, I'll say this much more, Wilson knew he didn't have a gun(stated as much) so I don't see why the waistband is relevant.

Wilson didn't state that Brown didn't have a gun that I've seen anywhere. How would he even know at that point? He couldn't.

The waist band is relevant in my mind because it would add to Wilson's belief that he was in immediate danger of severe bodily injury or death. The fact that Wilson claimed it AS WELL as other credible witnesses also serves to corroborate Wilson's accuracy. That would be a detail I wouldn't believe without supporting testimony myself. It's too easy to make up and unprovable.

The only witnesses I've found to be dishonest are all on Brown's side. I haven't read them all though.

 

[RamzFanz]

I want to say though, on this issue, I agree that blacks, cops, courts and sentencing have serious issues that need to be fixed. I wouldn't care at all about the receivers doing the hands up, even if they KNEW it wasn't true, in an effort to spread awareness of a real problem.

What I object to is officer Wilson being witch hunted and having his life and career ruined over false statements by witnesses. Many media outlets still won't acknowledge that he was exonerated by the evidence.