New: Latest on Kroenke, Rams and NFL in STL

[bluecoconuts]

That the Rams are willing to fork over half of a 900 million stadium in tax money. If Stan moves with that deal on the table, it's essentially telling all future stadium negotiations that it doesn't matter how much money you put into the pot. We're going to move if we want to. It essentially shits all over host cities.

I don't think that would really be the case, it may lead to cities being more pessimistic about their chances if a team was to look to move, but unless the team announced they were building a stadium in a new city, I don't think that other cities would assume its not happening. This is a pretty unique situation, if the Rams leave and it were to happen again, then yeah that city probably wouldn't try very hard, if at all. However if that was the case, then the owners get what they want, don't they? A clean break.

 

[ChrisW]

I don't think that would really be the case, it may lead to cities being more pessimistic about their chances if a team was to look to move, but unless the team announced they were building a stadium in a new city, I don't think that other cities would assume its not happening. This is a pretty unique situation, if the Rams leave and it were to happen again, then yeah that city probably wouldn't try very hard, if at all. However if that was the case, then the owners get what they want, don't they? A clean break.

How many owners can afford to build their own 1 billion dollar stadium? I assume that quite a few can, but not all, as is the case with Spanos and Davis. I think subsidies are at the top of the NFL's priorities. It's going to be tough sledding either way moving forward for them. Either they leave LA bare for the time being, or they leave several hundred million dollars from the city of St. Louis and state of Missouri in the wind.

 

[RamFan503]

Here's the full documentation: http://championsinitiative.com/wp-c...ty-of-Champions-Revitalization-Initiative.pdf

It's made very clear multiple times that the stadium alternative is an option to the landowner. Expand to read the full verbiage please.



Keep in mind I'm not arguing that it's all fluff and a stadium won't be built there, just that there are other alternatives.

Yeah - I get that you are not saying that he intends to build a Walmart there. I don't see where the verbiage allows him to change the approved use without submitting yet another plan revision. However, what I was originally responding to was the idea that he now could just ditch the stadium idea and put in a Walmart instead. You know - Post Dispatch interpretation. Any alternative would still need to be approved and he'd be hard pressed to get that kind of deviation from a voter approved initiative through the courts.

Quite a bit more info in the full text than in the ballot title summary that I was referring to. This one is pretty unique in that the project was large enough already that they would adopt a re-zoning specific to the Hollywood Park Specific Plan (the original 238 acres). That is unusual as it doesn't just result in a conditional use approval or a simple decision by the planning department as I have offered up. My bad.

I haven't gotten through the entire 187 pages but I have read through a fair bit of it. The landowner (Kroenke/Hollywood Park Land Company) do indeed have an option NOT to build the stadium. But by the wording, they don't have the option to change to a completely different use. Instead it allows for the project to revert to the previously approved specific plan should Kroenke decide to not build the stadium and concert venue.

The stadium plan itself appears to still need to go through the planning process as does most of the housing units and associated retail space, etc. If the plans check off all the boxes, any plan will likely be rubber stamped as long as they also fit within the specific plan. In order for Stan to then build a Walmart or any other project on the properties, he would have to go through not only another initiative to alter the specific plan but would have to apply to the city for a permit to build a Walmart or any other project that deviates from the plan. More likely is that the 60 acres falls off the project.

In the end though, it seems to indicate that should a stadium not get built, the Hollywood Park people could revert to their previous plan and build the approved development. That sounds more like the Hollywood Park developers protecting themselves in case Stan decides to pull the plug on the stadium idea. It also would seem then that Stan doesn't want to try to squeeze a stadium on the 60 acres regardless.

And in the end, if they go to a vote of the people and the specific plan is approved, and then try to change from Stadium to some other use, that is not what the voters approved, you'd be looking at a pretty easy court battle on behalf of citizens that already blocked Wally World from going in in the first place. But that doesn't mean Stan couldn't put in other projects as you have said. Strip malls and other projects would likely fly through the approval process.

 

[RamFan503]

Andy Banker ‏@andybankertv
#breakingnews more major movement on #StLNFL stadium proj. for #Rams. Deal struck w construction trades @fox2now at 5

Andy Banker ‏@andybankertv
#BREAKINGNEWS As reported @FOX2now at 5: #STLNFL stadium task force strikes deal w trades, to speed const & cut $$; 24hr work cycle, no OT

Martin Kilcoyne ‏@martinkilcoyne2
#FOX2 stadium update. @GovJayNixon will announce on thurs agreements with local construction unions to work 24 hour shifts on new stadium.

Martin Kilcoyne ‏@martinkilcoyne2
To clarify @GovJayNixon announcement. With unions working 3, 8 hour shifts will avoid overtime. Could save $millions on the price tag. #FOX2

Martin Kilcoyne ‏@martinkilcoyne2
This is about speeding up timeline for stadium project. #NFL exec Grubman made it clear that the 2020 completion date is not ideal #FOX2

Man on a mission.

 

[bluecoconuts]

How many owners can afford to build their own 1 billion dollar stadium? I assume that quite a few can, but not all, as is the case with Spanos and Davis. I think subsidies are at the top of the NFL's priorities. It's going to be tough sledding either way moving forward for them. Either they leave LA bare for the time being, or they leave several hundred million dollars from the city of St. Louis and state of Missouri in the wind.

I'm not sure I understand the logic to your argument.

If a team wants help with funding from a stadium, via taxes, then I don't see how this would stop them. For example, say the Eagles want a new stadium, why wouldn't Philly be willing to help?

Now if the Eagles went and were planning to build a stadium in another city, then I could see Philly not wanting to pitch in any tax money, but if the Eagles wanted to relocate, then I don't think they worry about that.

If the argument is that no stadium should be ever built without tax money, because then no city will want to put taxes up for a stadium, then I would say that's somewhat unlikely, due to every owner being different, wanting different things, and having different net worths.

 

[ChrisW]

I'm not sure I understand the logic to your argument.

If a team wants help with funding from a stadium, via taxes, then I don't see how this would stop them. For example, say the Eagles want a new stadium, why wouldn't Philly be willing to help?

Now if the Eagles went and were planning to build a stadium in another city, then I could see Philly not wanting to pitch in any tax money, but if the Eagles wanted to relocate, then I don't think they worry about that.

If the argument is that no stadium should be ever built without tax money, because then no city will want to put taxes up for a stadium, then I would say that's somewhat unlikely, due to every owner being different, wanting different things, and having different net worths.

The league is essentially showing no loyalty to st. louis as a host city if they allow the Rams to move while this deal is on the table and moving forward. If you want me to boil it down.

 

[bluecoconuts]

The league is essentially showing no loyalty to st. louis as a host city if they allow the Rams to move while this deal is on the table and moving forward. If you want me to boil it down.

I get that, but I don't see how that logically it follows that other cities won't ever want to pay taxes for a stadium. If teams want to stay then cities shouldn't have any issue with helping out. If teams want to move, then cities saying no helps their case.

I agree that its not very cool to up and leave with St Louis working on a stadium, but if its not the stadium he wants then its not the one he wants. Forcing owners to stay isn't good either, they're dammed either way really.

 

[ChrisW]

but if its not the stadium he wants then its not the one he wants.

Well fortunately for STL, he has to work with his existing market to get what he wants. If he wants to move, well he's got a ton of stuff to do, and the other owners have to justify leaving the current market with a new stadium coming down the pipeline.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Well fortunately for STL, he has to work with his existing market to get what he wants. If he wants to move, well he's got a ton of stuff to do, and the other owners have to justify leaving the current market with a new stadium coming down the pipeline.

It won't be hard for them to justify things. If some fans don't buy it, is another thing, but they'll be able to justify a block or a move without to much issue. On the same note, fortunately for Kroenke, he's made a pitch and was told no, then nothing happened for a very long time. He doesn't really need to do too much else to move, just get his ducks in a row in LA and then have it go to a vote. If they say no he has options to get what he wants, but personally I don't think they say no.

 

[ReddingRam]

The problem is the entire NFL is based upon one simple rule, the interests of the league are more important than the interests of the individual owner. As you say the league can't force a team to do anything, it's essentially a house of cards. You let one owner serve his individual interests without recourse you better believe every other owner is going to serve his best interests and expect the same treatment.

I'm Jerry Jones, I've been abiding by the league's revenue sharing, draft and salary cap laws for years despite the knowledge that if I didn't I'd dominate the league in income, and I'd be able to buy myself a championship every year, do you really think I'm not going to take advantage of this new league philosophy of allowing owners to serve their own personal interest?

Who said Stan wouldn't "share" his riches with the NFL. The issue is moving. Jerry signed a partnership with a company that was NOT partnered with the NFL .. .actually the rival of one that is! ... but Jerry won ... and he shares ... that is all that matters in the end. That everyone get's their slice of the pie .....

 

[TSFH Fan]

but Jerry won ... and he shares

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/sto...iness-model-nba-nhl-mlb-comparison-salary-cap

The NFL also shares ticket and merchandise revenues, with the exception of the Cowboys — Dallas keeps revenues generated from merchandise sales and does not receive any from the other 31 teams.

Each franchise retains its suite, club seating and sponsorship revenues from naming rights and other properties. The Cowboys' AT&T Stadium, for example, includes 342 suites and 15,000 club seats. The stadium's luxury suites sell for between $224,000 and $900,000 a year.

 

[8to12]

I recently made a bad decision and looked at the Rams site on the PD. There was a "discussion" regarding Stan's property in Inglewood and pro Rams to LA and pro Rams in Stl. were arguing about the financial windfall that Stan would gain if such a move were to happen. One poster, (and I don't remember who it was) stated that it was possible that Stan was trying to get Inglewood to rezone so that a Walmart could finally be built there. The more that I thought about it, the more that possibility made sense to me. A huge "Super Walmart" in that region could rake in more in profits every day than an NFL team could make in a season. The construction costs would likely be less than a third of what a new football stadium would cost, maintenance costs would be considerably less and instead of 8 regular season games, a couple of preseason games and various special events scheduled throughout the year, they could rake in the profits 24/7/365. I believe that SK is not involved with the Walmart daily operations, but it could be a financial windfall if he could get that to happen. I would think that it would be hugely more profitable than owning an NFL franchise, but it would depend on SK's ego and the ownership of another professional sports team. Am I missing something here or does this seem reasonable to anyone else?

I think it is an uninformed opinion. My understanding is that Stan was able to purchase the land from his wife's family (WalMart) at a discount because they (WalMart) failed to get approval from the city to build a Super-Walmart store there on the original 60 acre lot. It sounds like the folks of Inglewood don't want Walmart in their neighborhood.

 

[Goose]

It won't be hard for them to justify things. If some fans don't buy it, is another thing, but they'll be able to justify a block or a move without to much issue. On the same note, fortunately for Kroenke, he's made a pitch and was told no, then nothing happened for a very long time. He doesn't really need to do too much else to move, just get his ducks in a row in LA and then have it go to a vote. If they say no he has options to get what he wants, but personally I don't think they say no.

Whether Stan have negotiated in good faith is up for debate. The process of arbitration was conducted with the CVC which is an independent organization apart from the City. Can you consider arbitration process that determined whether or not an out clause can be activated as negotiation? Peacock has been working on this plan for roughly 18 mos and just because it hasn't been public knowledge doesn't mean there hasn't been work. Now the city has presented a plan that is quickly materializing. Can the NFL allow him to leave a market when city has a stadium plan on the table? Especially when you have two cities that won't even bring a feasible plan to the table. What type message would that send to other cities?

 

[dbrooks25]

Whether Stan have negotiated in good faith is up for debate. The process of arbitration was conducted with the CVC which is an independent organization apart from the City. Can you consider arbitration process that determined whether or not an out clause can be activated as negotiation? Peacock has been working on this plan for roughly 18 mos and just because it hasn't been public knowledge doesn't mean there hasn't been work. Now the city has presented a plan that is quickly materializing. Can the NFL allow him to leave a market when city has a stadium plan on the table? Especially when you have two cities that won't even bring a feasible plan to the table. What type message would that send to other cities?

This is the part many don't seem to understand.

 

[mr.stlouis]

So Peackock struck up a deal with the labor unions to have a 24 hour work cycle that cuts money by eliminating overtime. And the tide shifts again.

I have little doubt the new LA stadium Stan has his eyes on is legit. I just don't think it pertains to the Rams. Sounds like things are going a lot smoother in STL than OAK or SD. The dots are lining up, fellas.

We need a Peacock statue when it's all said and done. The man is an ace and he's saving our team. I'm gonna sleep soundly tonight.

 

[LosAngelesRams]

I think it is an uninformed opinion. My understanding is that Stan was able to purchase the land from his wife's family (WalMart) at a discount because they (WalMart) failed to get approval from the city to build a Super-Walmart store there on the original 60 acre lot. It sounds like the folks of Inglewood don't want Walmart in their neighborhood.

Yea I remember hearing about that too, the people of Inglewood want nothing to do with a Walmart there.

 

[ChrisW]

It won't be hard for them to justify things. If some fans don't buy it, is another thing, but they'll be able to justify a block or a move without to much issue. On the same note, fortunately for Kroenke, he's made a pitch and was told no, then nothing happened for a very long time. He doesn't really need to do too much else to move, just get his ducks in a row in LA and then have it go to a vote. If they say no he has options to get what he wants, but personally I don't think they say no.

He made a pitch in the current dome. Now a brand new stadium is on the table, it's a different negotiation. I also think its going to be VERY hard for them to justify a move the way things sit now. Now if STL loses it's steam in say the financing portion of the deal, then it's a different ball game.

 

[ChrisW]

So Peackock struck up a deal with the labor unions to have a 24 hour work cycle that cuts money by eliminating overtime. And the tide shifts again.

I have little doubt the new LA stadium Stan has his eyes on is legit. I just don't think it pertains to the Rams. Sounds like things are going a lot smoother in STL than OAK or SD. The dots are lining up, fellas.

We need a Peacock statue when it's all said and done. The man is an ace and he's saving our team. I'm gonna sleep soundly tonight.

I really hope he can get a piece of ownership IF things go crazy and Stan decides to sell. Peacock is the owner STL deserves.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Whether Stan have negotiated in good faith is up for debate. The process of arbitration was conducted with the CVC which is an independent organization apart from the City. Can you consider arbitration process that determined whether or not an out clause can be activated as negotiation? Peacock has been working on this plan for roughly 18 mos and just because it hasn't been public knowledge doesn't mean there hasn't been work. Now the city has presented a plan that is quickly materializing. Can the NFL allow him to leave a market when city has a stadium plan on the table? Especially when you have two cities that won't even bring a feasible plan to the table. What type message would that send to other cities?

Well yeah, it's up for debate, that's what the owners will decide. If he did a good enough job or not. Right now there hasn't been any indication of how they feel other than Goodell saying that they were satisfied with his efforts thus far. That can change as time goes on, obviously, but we wont know how they feel until they vote. He HAS made an offer to remain in St Louis, and was turned down. While the CVC is independent from the city, it's still an offer to remain in the market, which was turned down. Just because the parties have changed, doesn't mean that he didn't make an offer to remain in the market, if one says no, and another makes a pitch, he's not obligated to begin negotiations with the new group. While he hasn't met with the groups face to face, he has sent people on his behalf to talk to the Peacock side, so he is not just sitting back and doing absolutely nothing.

I'd guess that the NFL likely believes that an owner may leave a market even though there is an offer on the table, if the offer is not what the owner was looking for. The plans in LA and the plans in St Louis seem to be near total opposites. In LA he owns everything, it's a huge stadium, with what has been rumored to have a retractable roof. In St Louis he doesn't own anything really, a small stadium, and open dome. I don't think the NFL wants to back themselves into a corner where a city can just make any offer and then force a team to remain there. If St Louis was offering something that was very close to what he planned in LA I think that it would be a much harder sell to up and leave, but if there are significant differences in ideas, then I'm guessing Kroenke will argue that it's just not even close to what he wants, and all plans have been going forward assume it remains as is. I think it's smart for St. Louis to continue pressing forward, because if the Rams leave, that stadium is the best way to get a new team, but it definitely gets tricky.

I agree that it's not very fair for St Louis to go through this, when other cities like Oakland and San Diego aren't really working as hard as St Louis is, but I don't know how much that's going to sway other owners. Spanos and the San Diego mayor are sitting down for a meeting however. The reality is that Kroenke has a vision in another city (one in which the NFL has been trying to achieve for years), the means to accomplish that vision, and a way out of his current market, neither Davis or Spanos have that. If the NFL truly wants LA to be solved, then this is their best bet, and they may just let it happen regardless. If Spanos and AEG can come to a deal, then the NFL may allow that to happen, but I'm not sure that he wants to give up 40ish% of his team, and the NFL may not be to thrilled with the AEG plan anyway, there was rumors that they didn't like how Tim Leiweke was handling business, and he ended up losing his job at AEG. The councilmen down there have already passed motions to do regular upgrades on the convention center, and from my understanding they will need to go through some hoops again to get a greenlight to build, as it's been so long since the initial proposal was made. There was also issues with financing (which Kroenke doesn't have), but if they were able to figure that out, I would think that the best alternative for a football team in LA, which reports all say is one of the biggest goals for the NFL. As it stands right now there is very little in the way for the Kroenke plan, and a number of issues for the other plans that apparently concern the NFL. All of these stack the deck against St. Louis, which is very unfair. Unfortunately that's how these things go sometimes.

He made a pitch in the current dome. Now a brand new stadium is on the table, it's a different negotiation. I also think its going to be VERY hard for them to justify a move the way things sit now. Now if STL loses it's steam in say the financing portion of the deal, then it's a different ball game.

My post above essentially responds to this one as well.

____________________

The news that St Louis is pressing forward, figuring out how to both speed up the process and save money is encouraging though. I'm still hoping that Kroenke makes a counter offer and they're able to get everything hammered out. I'm not convinced that Kroenke is willing to take the riverfront stadium given what was put out for the stadium in LA, if that's truly what he wants, but the more things they get figured out the easier it gets.

 

[RamFan503]

So Peackock struck up a deal with the labor unions to have a 24 hour work cycle that cuts money by eliminating overtime. And the tide shifts again.

I have little doubt the new LA stadium Stan has his eyes on is legit. I just don't think it pertains to the Rams. Sounds like things are going a lot smoother in STL than OAK or SD. The dots are lining up, fellas.

We need a Peacock statue when it's all said and done. The man is an ace and he's saving our team. I'm gonna sleep soundly tonight.

Peacock seems to be no doubt a great representative for the city of St Louis and the state of MO. And if the Rams stay in St Louis, I think the same consideration should be given to Stan Kroenke - another native son.

Maybe none of us truly understand all the processes going on here but I can't imagine a man of his stature and abilities would be forced to stay anywhere he didn't have as his end game. I still think there is a real possibility that Stan's end game is to keep the team that he was an essential part in bringing to his home state IN his home state.

I realize the Inglewood project would suggest otherwise but we are still talking about a man that has outplayed virtually everyone in the development game over the last several years. He may just be playing this out to get some kind of ownership or a say in how the new stadium will be developed and upgraded over time. I don't know. Like everyone else, I'm just spit balling here until we have official word on something - anything.