New: Latest on Kroenke, Rams and NFL in STL

[Watercop]

on a completely different note, what if SK is planning on building a "soccer only" stadium and is planning on moving Arsenal to LA. Wouldn't that make a lot of people on both sides of the Rams issue look silly!

 

[ChrisW]

I think the League would be MUCH more willing to send that message than to set a precedent that one day could come back to bite ANY of them that a team can be absolutely locked in by a city no matter how much that they want to move, as well as not wanting the ugly fight with Kroenke.

And again, definitions will vary as to what is a "workable deal". There is AMPLE room for Kroenke to disagree that it is such. I'm pretty sure, but I could be wrong, but the Rams weren't asked to pay hundreds of millions to build the EJD.

You think the league would rather risk all those tax dollars in the future for one market?

 

[ZigZagRam]

Bad decision indeed.

As far as changing the zoning, that is not actually happening. At least not by the initiative they have in hand. The initiative is a conditional use change that specifically allows for a stadium and concert venue to be added to the project already approved. Generally, conditional uses don't actually change the existing zoning but allow for a deviation.

Not to offend but I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. The initiative's main focus is to re-zone Kroenke's land under the umbrella of the Stockbridge project and re-zone both as Major-Mixed Use. The 'Stadium Alternative' is noted as an option to the land-owner, but it'd be completely within the bounds of the initiative for Kroenke to use his lands to extend the Stockbridge development and build more housing and retail sites should he choose to do so.

That said, I do believe there's certain language in the initiative that prevents a big box store from being built there. But make no mistake about it, Kroenke has other options other than a stadium if it turns out that someone beats him to L.A. or he decides to keep the team in St. Louis, mainly in the way of strip malls and housing, aka his specialty.

 

[bluecoconuts]

You think the league would rather risk all those tax dollars in the future for one market?

What future tax dollars are you talking about?

 

[RamFan503]

Not to offend but I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. The initiative's main focus is to re-zone Kroenke's land under the umbrella of the Stockbridge project and re-zone both as Major-Mixed Use. The 'Stadium Alternative' is noted as an option to the land-owner, but it'd be completely within the bounds of the initiative for Kroenke to use his lands to extend the Stockbridge development and build more housing and retail sites should he choose to do so.

That said, I do believe there's certain language in the initiative that prevents a big box store from being built there. But make no mistake about it, Kroenke has other options other than a stadium if it turns out that someone beats him to L.A. or he decides to keep the team in St. Louis, mainly in the way of strip malls and housing, aka his specialty.

You might want to read the actual initiative wording provided by the city attorney. It's pretty specific right down to how it does/does not affect taxes on ticket sales. Also, the stadium is not going to be built on the 60 acres. That is in there too.

 

[ZigZagRam]

You might want to read the actual initiative wording provided by the city attorney. It's pretty specific right down to how it does/does not affect taxes on ticket sales. Also, the stadium is not going to be built on the 60 acres. That is in there too.

I've read the full documentation of the initiative. Have you?

From the lengthy full initiative documentation:

It is in the public interest to amend the General Plan land use designation for the Northern Parcel from Commercial-Recreation and Commercial-Residential to Major Mixed-Use, and the General Plan land use designation for the Northern Parcel is hereby so amended.

Also, part of the stadium would most definitely need to be built on Kroenke's land. Here are a few graphics to illustrate.

Graphic 1: This is the property as outlined in the initiative document. The Northern Parcel is Kroenke's land.

Graphic 2: This is a graphic I put together to illustrate the boundaries overlayed on the development sketch.

As you can see, part of the stadium would indeed have to be built on Kroenke's land.

 

[Dodgersrf]

I recently made a bad decision and looked at the Rams site on the PD. There was a "discussion" regarding Stan's property in Inglewood and pro Rams to LA and pro Rams in Stl. were arguing about the financial windfall that Stan would gain if such a move were to happen. One poster, (and I don't remember who it was) stated that it was possible that Stan was trying to get Inglewood to rezone so that a Walmart could finally be built there. The more that I thought about it, the more that possibility made sense to me. A huge "Super Walmart" in that region could rake in more in profits every day than an NFL team could make in a season. The construction costs would likely be less than a third of what a new football stadium would cost, maintenance costs would be considerably less and instead of 8 regular season games, a couple of preseason games and various special events scheduled throughout the year, they could rake in the profits 24/7/365. I believe that SK is not involved with the Walmart daily operations, but it could be a financial windfall if he could get that to happen. I would think that it would be hugely more profitable than owning an NFL franchise, but it would depend on SK's ego and the ownership of another professional sports team. Am I missing something here or does this seem reasonable to anyone else?

The PD is a great place to go when in need of legal advice.

 

[RamFan503]

I've read the full documentation of the initiative. Have you?

From the lengthy full initiative documentation:



Also, part of the stadium would most definitely need to be built on Kroenke's land. Here are a few graphics to illustrate.

Graphic 1: This is the property as outlined in the initiative document. The Northern Parcel is Kroenke's land.

Graphic 2: This is a graphic I put together to illustrate the boundaries overlayed on the development sketch.

As you can see, part of the stadium would indeed have to be built on Kroenke's land.

Yes I have read the document released by the city attorney. You are omitting the specific language and that is key to the initiative. Yes they are amending the approved use but it states that it is specifically for the change of allowing the stadium and the concert venue. That is generally considered a conditional use change. Initiatives are quite specific and must be so for risk of being thrown out by the courts. As to the location of the site, I used a generalization based on the intersection stated in the wording offered by the city attorney. I can accept that some of the project spills over onto Kroenke's 60 acres. The initiative wasn't worded in such a way that I pull the orientation out of it.

I will go back and look for the link to the documentation for the initiative unless you want to post it. It would seem you have it.

 

[ZigZagRam]

The PD is a great place to go when in need of legal advice.

Well you may actually be correct, but I think that's more in the way of criminal rather than business law.

 

[BuiltRamTough]

I've read the full documentation of the initiative. Have you?

From the lengthy full initiative documentation:



Also, part of the stadium would most definitely need to be built on Kroenke's land. Here are a few graphics to illustrate.

Graphic 1: This is the property as outlined in the initiative document. The Northern Parcel is Kroenke's land.

Graphic 2: This is a graphic I put together to illustrate the boundaries overlayed on the development sketch.

As you can see, part of the stadium would indeed have to be built on Kroenke's land.

I read somewhere that parking was going to be on the 60 acre Stan owns. Now I see

 

[ZigZagRam]

Yes I have read the document released by the city attorney. You are omitting the specific language and that is key to the initiative. Yes they are amending the approved use but it states that it is specifically for the change of allowing the stadium and the concert venue. That is generally considered a conditional use change. Initiatives are quite specific and must be so for risk of being thrown out by the courts. As to the location of the site, I used a generalization based on the intersection stated in the wording offered by the city attorney. I can accept that some of the project spills over onto Kroenke's 60 acres. The initiative wasn't worded in such a way that I pull the orientation out of it.

I will go back and look for the link to the documentation for the initiative unless you want to post it. It would seem you have it.

Here's the full documentation: http://championsinitiative.com/wp-c...ty-of-Champions-Revitalization-Initiative.pdf

It's made very clear multiple times that the stadium alternative is an option to the landowner. Expand to read the full verbiage please.

The text of the description of “Hollywood Park Tomorrow” at Page 4-1 of the 2013-2021 Housing Element of the General Plan (adopted January 28, 2014) (the “General Plan Housing Element”) is hereby amended as follows (new text shown as underlined, and deleted text shown as strikethrough):

“Of these sites, the largest is Hollywood Park Tomorrow and an adjacent 60-acre property located immediately north of the Hollywood Park Tomorrow site (238 298 acres total) located at 1050 South Prairie Avenue; the location of the former Hollywood Park Equestrian Racetrack. The last race was held at the racetrack in December 2013. The site was previously zoned Commercial- Recreational (C-R). In 2009, the Hollywood Park Specific Plan was approved for the property which allows a variety of land uses and has been planned to include the following:
Residential: 2,995 units including a range of housing types
Commercial Retail: 620,000 square feet
Commercial Office: 75,000 square feet of office
Special Event Space: 300-room hotel, 20,000 square feet of meeting space
Commercial Recreation: 120,000 square foot casino
Civic Space: Four (4) acres for a community oriented use
Open Space: 25 acres

Demolition of all improvements and structures currently on the property is expected to begin in 2014. Development of the Plan is programmed in three primary phases: Phase I includes development of the mixed-use/commercial component and a portion of Lake Park; Phase II consists of a combination of the single-family and townhome housing units and Arroyo Park, and Phase III consists of the remainder of the single-family, townhomes, and open space. The Specific Plan also provides a development alternative (the “Stadium Project Alternative”) to the above-described scope of development that allows a stadium with up to approximately 80,000 fixed seats and an ancillary, multi-purpose, enclosed performance venue of up to approximately 6,000 fixed seats on the Property, which rearranges and harmonizes the land uses and related development standards to accommodate the stadium and its supporting infrastructure. If the land owner elects to construct the Stadium Project Alternative, the number of dwelling units allowed within the Hollywood Park Specific Plan area would not exceed 2,500 units and would continue to include a range of housing types. In addition, the approximately 60-acre parcel in the northern area of the Hollywood Park Specific Plan area is designated as “Major Mixed-Use” in the General Plan and could potentially be developed with housing uses as part of a future specific plan amendment.”

Keep in mind I'm not arguing that it's all fluff and a stadium won't be built there, just that there are other alternatives.

 

[ZigZagRam]

I read somewhere that parking was going to be on the 60 acre Stan owns. Now I see

There will be parking, as you can tell, but not only parking.

I believe that that portion of the Hollywood Racetrack property was only parking but I could be wrong. Maybe that's what you read?

 

[ChrisW]

What future tax dollars are you talking about?

That the Rams are willing to fork over half of a 900 million stadium in tax money. If Stan moves with that deal on the table, it's essentially telling all future stadium negotiations that it doesn't matter how much money you put into the pot. We're going to move if we want to. It essentially shits all over host cities.

 

[Goose]

Andy Banker ‏@andybankertv
#breakingnews more major movement on #StLNFL stadium proj. for #Rams. Deal struck w construction trades @fox2now at 5

Andy Banker ‏@andybankertv
#BREAKINGNEWS As reported @FOX2now at 5: #STLNFL stadium task force strikes deal w trades, to speed const & cut $$; 24hr work cycle, no OT

Martin Kilcoyne ‏@martinkilcoyne2
#FOX2 stadium update. @GovJayNixon will announce on thurs agreements with local construction unions to work 24 hour shifts on new stadium.

Martin Kilcoyne ‏@martinkilcoyne2
To clarify @GovJayNixon announcement. With unions working 3, 8 hour shifts will avoid overtime. Could save $millions on the price tag. #FOX2

Martin Kilcoyne ‏@martinkilcoyne2
This is about speeding up timeline for stadium project. #NFL exec Grubman made it clear that the 2020 completion date is not ideal #FOX2

 

[ZigZagRam]

I guess that means we can check off another one of those boxes.

 

[Goose]

I guess that means we can check off another one of those boxes.

You know for a plan that doesn't exist with money we don't have things sure seem to be moving along.

 

[ZigZagRam]

You know for a plan that doesn't exist with money we don't have things sure seem to be moving along.

Sure seems like it. Now they're bumping up the timeline of construction?

The timeline was one of those things that I thought Kroenke would be able to argue. Now they apparently just shortened it and saved $$ (I'm guessing that's what he meant by 'cut &&' in the process.

 

[ChrisW]

Andy Banker ‏@andybankertv
#breakingnews more major movement on #StLNFL stadium proj. for #Rams. Deal struck w construction trades @fox2now at 5

Andy Banker ‏@andybankertv
#BREAKINGNEWS As reported @FOX2now at 5: #STLNFL stadium task force strikes deal w trades, to speed const & cut &&; 24hr work cycle, no OT

Martin Kilcoyne ‏@martinkilcoyne2
#FOX2 stadium update. @GovJayNixon will announce on thurs agreements with local construction unions to work 24 hour shifts on new stadium.

Martin Kilcoyne ‏@martinkilcoyne2
To clarify @GovJayNixon announcement. With unions working 3, 8 hour shifts will avoid overtime. Could save $millions on the price tag. #FOX2

Martin Kilcoyne ‏@martinkilcoyne2
This is about speeding up timeline for stadium project. #NFL exec Grubman made it clear that the 2020 completion date is not ideal #FOX2

Has any city made an effort to keep their team like this before? It sure is moving along fast.

 

[Goose]

Sure seems like it. Now they're bumping up the timeline of construction?

The timeline was one of those things that I thought Kroenke would be able to argue. Now they apparently just shortened it and saved $$ (I'm guessing that's what he meant by 'cut &&' in the process.

I think your right he tweeted it wrong. I added a bit more from Marty K on the manner. It was done as part of the suggestion from Grubman.

 

[BuiltRamTough]

You know for a plan that doesn't exist with money we don't have things sure seem to be moving along.

Ya but still STL is making the deals so when the financing is final everything else should be ready and the stadium construction can begin. San Diego and Oakland TAKE NOTES.