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blue4

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Did I miss something. Have the Rams moved? Let's remember that for the time being St. Louis is their home. We'll address new franchises if the Rams move.

Not yet. But I think there is about a 60% chance if you blink next year the Rams might be gone. Which means for St Louis the time to think about this is now. The Rams should be plan A1. Another franchise should be plan A2. No more plan B.
 

iced

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One big thing I keep seeing repeated that of course is being ignored by the Media....

EG: Let’s be clear why we said no relocation. This was not some unilateral, down-from-the-mountain decision on the part of the league office. This was after dozens of conversations with clubs that might be interested and with owners on committees, chairmen of committees. Now let’s take a step back and ask, what is wrong with this picture? It’s not just wanting to go to the Los Angeles market. You have to have a place to play permanently, your existing market has to have failed, and you have to have an approved plan between Point A and Point B. All of those things weren’t present in a way that could make the NFL proud. And, no one disagreed with that. So, while it could have been rushed and possibly done, we would not have been able to have the kind of pride and quality in execution that’s become a hallmark of the NFL. When that became apparent, there was no dissent. We talked to the clubs involved, as we said before, and while it may have been a surprise to the market, it wasn’t a surprise to those teams.

Of course I don't expect this to be covered by Profootball Speculation, errr Talk...who likes to think Kroenke can just move without repercussions (which is just untrue)... share of the TV Revenue, draft picks, fines, etc...

http://www.stltoday.com/sports/foot...cle_03b191af-dd5b-5169-987a-3448aafcc963.html

Former longtime Oakland Raiders executive Amy Trask also revealed a little-known fact to the Post-Dispatch last week, namely that there are provisions in place to deter teams from relocating without league approval.

“These safeguards are really draconian,” she said. “They involve financial penalties and other penalties that really should deter teams from doing things like that without (league approval).”


Among them are forfeitures of part of a team’s annual share of leaguewide television revenue. Another is forfeiture of a team’s share of leaguewide income from NFL Properties — the league’s merchandising arm.
 

Boffo97

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One big thing I keep seeing repeated that of course is being ignored by the Media....



Of course I don't expect this to be covered by Profootball Speculation, errr Talk...who likes to think Kroenke can just move without repercussions (which is just untrue)... share of the TV Revenue, draft picks, fines, etc...
But the big assumption with that is that the NFL would actually enforce their bylaws. If, in worst case, the NFL ruled no on a move and Kroenke went rogue, I absolutely think it would be without repercussions, because any serious repercussions (beyond slap on the wrist, like say a fine of $500K) would be met with an anti-trust lawsuit, and precedent has shown that the NFL will lose such a lawsuit.

The biggest problem is that the phrase "your existing market has to have failed" in and of itself is VERY subjective.

In the end, I think billionaires are going to scratch each others' backs as happens all too often... but I get a strong vibe that Stan is only going with this process for as long as it suits him to do so.

And even if Goodell agrees with your take on it... if he hasn't grown a set of balls yet in punishing franchises, this issue is not going to be the one where he does.
 

iced

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But the big assumption with that is that the NFL would actually enforce their bylaws. If, in worst case, the NFL ruled no on a move and Kroenke went rogue, I absolutely think it would be without repercussions, because any serious repercussions (beyond slap on the wrist, like say a fine of $500K) would be met with an anti-trust lawsuit, and precedent has shown that the NFL will lose such a lawsuit.

The biggest problem is that the phrase "your existing market has to have failed" in and of itself is VERY subjective.

In the end, I think billionaires are going to scratch each others' backs as happens all too often... but I get a strong vibe that Stan is only going with this process for as long as it suits him to do so.

not every billionaire is on board with him

and yea, i think they might be serious...but the biggest thing it take away from "Your market has failed" is :
-fan support and blackouts
-exhaust options with the city..

As long as St.Louis is making a legit effort, they shouldn't be able to move..exhaust all options

BTW lets not forget Spanos is obviously against the move and claims he also has the votes for no move

And even if Goodell agrees with your take on it... if he hasn't grown a set of balls yet in punishing franchises, this issue is not going to be the one where he does.

i think several franchises - both in the past and present - would disagree with you as far as punishment goes...

Saints..browns..patriots...
 
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ZigZagRam

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Of course I don't expect this to be covered by Profootball Speculation, errr Talk...who likes to think Kroenke can just move without repercussions (which is just untrue)... share of the TV Revenue, draft picks, fines, etc...

Yesterday, Deadspin referred to Florio as a 'half-deranged, scandal-humping football reporter.'

I thought it was a pretty perfect description.
 

BuiltRamTough

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Hey guys, I allways google "Rams" to read new stuff that pops up and today i noticed this pop up... has this been there and i just never noticed it or what is it? Do they sell Rams gear there or something?

9GUgzTY.jpg


haven't looked into it yet but was just wondering what it is?
I googled "Rams" and I got the same result. Santa Ana is close to LA. I called that number but it was voice mail. Very strange
 

bluecoconuts

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Interesting. I am of the belief that right now Stan does not have all the votes he needs. There are parties that are waiting to see how the STL proposal plays out before committing one way or another. Now that doesn't mean he won't get the votes regardless I just think we are still to early in the process. Old school owners don't seem to favor the musical chair games when it comes to franchises moving.

I just don't see the votes. Some of the old school owners probably voted against the move out of LA in the first place. Plus people were talking about guys like Roony voting against it, but it turns out he's on the committee to bring a team to LA. With word that the NFL wanting a team in LA, and Stan filling them in every step of the way, I don't know who votes no. Other than the Chargers, nobody else benefits from blocking the vote, but they benefit from the move
 

12intheBox

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Today / the highly unsubstantiated rumors are that Stan buys (and moves) the Raiders and sells the Rams.
 

ZigZagRam

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Hey guys, I allways google "Rams" to read new stuff that pops up and today i noticed this pop up... has this been there and i just never noticed it or what is it? Do they sell Rams gear there or something?

9GUgzTY.jpg


haven't looked into it yet but was just wondering what it is?

John Shaw used to work out of a Santa Ana, California office even when the team was in St. Louis. I imagine that's it.
 

Boffo97

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not every billionaire is on board with him
Yet. Money talks though.

and yea, i think they might be serious...but the biggest thing it take away from "Your market has failed" is :
-fan support and blackouts
-exhaust options with the city..

As long as St.Louis is making a legit effort, they shouldn't be able to move..exhaust all options

BTW lets not forget Spanos is obviously against the move and claims he also has the votes for no move
Spanos' delusions that he controls a city beyond the city his team is currently in are more amusing to me than anything else. I think some of these owners that he has on his side now could be convinced to switch their vote, especially if some money changes hands. Even Spanos might not object so long as Kroenke keeps the option for a 2nd team moving into the new stadium open.

That said, if I were Kroenke and I wanted to make an argument that the St. Louis market has failed, I'd have several options to do so. I could point out that in recent years (if I've heard correctly) there's been a lot of non-sellouts recently. I could point out there's been quite a few home games that visiting fans comprised at least an atypically large minority. I could point out that the CVC failed to meet the lease requirements, and all they have provided so far is drawings with funding that is both uncertain (whether public funds can be extended without a vote on the matter) and unacceptable (Kroenke being on the hook for funds for a stadium he won't own.) You can retort that these arguments are BS, and as me, I'd concede you have a point. But the more important fact might simply be that they sound good. And there may be others in this vein too.

The article I recently posted raised a good point... suppose Kroenke doesn't get to move in 2016. Does it make more sense that he shrugs his shoulders, says "Oh well", and writes a check for the stadium that wrecked his plan? Or does he just keep using his unilateral year to year lease rights on the EJD (which he has until 2024) to keep pushing? And in the meantime, the fan support erodes more and more (next year alone will probably be ugly on the score). In my mind, the latter is the far more likely possibility.

i think several franchises - both in the past and present - would disagree with you as far as punishment goes...

Saints..browns..patriots...
The Patriots are pretty much the poster child proving that Goodell has no teeth for actual punishment whatsoever. The Saints got hit pretty hard, but managed to get their punishment reduced on appeal. Not sure where you're going with the Browns.

If Kroenke did go rogue, I have no doubt he'd either be allowed, or issued a complete slap on the wrist punishment. But I absolutely think this process is going to go his way. Some other people have talked odds before... mine are 95%-5% in favor of a move... and trending upwards (especially if the Inglewood hearing on the 24th goes without a hitch.)
 

Goose

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I just don't see the votes. Some of the old school owners probably voted against the move out of LA in the first place. Plus people were talking about guys like Roony voting against it, but it turns out he's on the committee to bring a team to LA. With word that the NFL wanting a team in LA, and Stan filling them in every step of the way, I don't know who votes no. Other than the Chargers, nobody else benefits from blocking the vote, but they benefit from the move

I have a different interpretation of the LA committee. I view the committee as the group to ensure the proper steps are followed. Not necessarily to get a team to LA. Rooney mentioned that they have to follow the bylaws and guidelines; they don't want a team to go rogue or think they are above the rules. That's not to say that Stan isn't but I don't think they are going to actively work to get a team to LA.
 

BuiltRamTough

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I have a different interpretation of the LA committee. I view the committee as the group to ensure the proper steps are followed. Not necessarily to get a team to LA. Rooney mentioned that they have to follow the bylaws and guidelines; they don't want a team to go rogue or think they are above the rules. That's not to say that Stan isn't but I don't think they are going to actively work to get a team to LA.
Do you trust the NFL to do the right thing?
 

iced

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That said, if I were Kroenke and I wanted to make an argument that the St. Louis market has failed, I'd have several options to do so. I could point out that in recent years (if I've heard correctly) there's been a lot of non-sellouts recently. I could point out there's been quite a few home games that visiting fans comprised at least an atypically large minority. I could point out that the CVC failed to meet the lease requirements, and all they have provided so far is drawings with funding that is both uncertain (whether public funds can be extended without a vote on the matter) and unacceptable (Kroenke being on the hook for funds for a stadium he won't own.) You can retort that these arguments are BS, and as me, I'd concede you have a point. But the more important fact might simply be that they sound good. And there may be others in this vein too.
There's also the flip side:

-I think timing is important for certain "Non-Sell outs" - you have a Cardinal team thats in the post season vs a football team that's generally looking bad or out of it come mid-late october / early november.

I'm hesitant to place Blame on the CVC and their timing - Kroenke became owner in 2010, and arbitration over the Stadium didn't complete until early 2013.

It's not like they've been sitting on year to year leases over an extended period of time like the Raiders and Chargers have...

They're about to officially begin going year to year lease next season - Chargers are entering their 8th straight year on year to year lease and have been working on a stadium for 14 years... Raiders have been for awhile now too...

And the raiders have also shown the greatest propensity to move - they have another one year deal since no club has met the requirements to move this season, but they've already both publicly stated their intent and even discussed moving to San Antonio at one point...

since the beginning, my money has been on the Raiders to be the ones to move back to LA - that's just my two cents.


The Patriots are pretty much the poster child proving that Goodell has no teeth for actual punishment whatsoever. The Saints got hit pretty hard, but managed to get their punishment reduced on appeal. Not sure where you're going with the Browns.

The browns and Falcons have punishments coming up. Haslam is supposedly looking at a year long suspension for texting to the coaches on the sideline.... Falcons for crowd noise (rumor for now is draft picks is the punishment)

The article I recently posted raised a good point... suppose Kroenke doesn't get to move in 2016. Does it make more sense that he shrugs his shoulders, says "Oh well", and writes a check for the stadium that wrecked his plan? Or does he just keep using his unilateral year to year lease rights on the EJD (which he has until 2024) to keep pushing? And in the meantime, the fan support erodes more and more (next year alone will probably be ugly on the score). In my mind, the latter is the far more likely possibility.

If Kroenke did go rogue, I have no doubt he'd either be allowed, or issued a complete slap on the wrist punishment. But I absolutely think this process is going to go his way. Some other people have talked odds before... mine are 95%-5% in favor of a move... and trending upwards (especially if the Inglewood hearing on the 24th goes without a hitch.)

I disagree - the NFL does not want a repeat of the 90's with relocations. that's why the rules are in place... And it seems to me with how much Goodell keeps mentioning the teams must meet the relocation criteria.

You also gotta think about the overall perception of this move - it's not "Just a LA" issue...it also becomes an issue with owners. how long have the Raiders and Chargers been meeting the criteria, if not exceeding it, yet struggle to get a stadium? And if they're mentioning a move, you gotta believe they get first dibs at a move to LA before anyone else. Not to say that they'd be the only team there, but I don't think they're gonna build two stadiums... Which is also another point - even if Stan builds a stadium and the NFL denies the Rams a move - it won't be a complete waste..there are other neighboring franchises that could make use of it (College football teams, lease to Raiders/Chargers type of situation, etc.) I don't know how viable or realistic as a scenario this is, but it has mentioned as one of many "possibilities" or "fall backs."...

Spanos' delusions that he controls a city beyond the city his team is currently in are more amusing to me than anything else. I think some of these owners that he has on his side now could be convinced to switch their vote, especially if some money changes hands. Even Spanos might not object so long as Kroenke keeps the option for a 2nd team moving into the new stadium open.

I wouldn't say that he assumes he has control as much as he's consulted with owners who probably agree with him...And again, overall perception.

As a co-owner in a big company, I'd be pissed if my business partners were allowed to skate around the guide lines that everyone else has to follow..

If Kroenke did that, he'd be the equivalent of the Patriots if there were an owner league
 

LosAngelesRams

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I googled "Rams" and I got the same result. Santa Ana is close to LA. I called that number but it was voice mail. Very strange

Right? Idk what it is but its got me curious. when i click on the webpage for the adress it takes me to the Rams official site.
 

LosAngelesRams

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John Shaw used to work out of a Santa Ana, California office even when the team was in St. Louis. I imagine that's it.

Ahh maybe thats why there is no information really for it. just tripped me out because when i googled Rams and seen a location in Santa Ana, im like :confused:?
 

BuiltRamTough

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I only trust them to do the right thing... as far as THEY are concerned. As in whatever will make the League the most money.
The right thing is to keep the Rams in MO but the NFL is all about money. Bylaws don't mean shit but I do believe they can stop Stan from going rogue.
 

Boffo97

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There's also the flip side:
I admitted there was a flip side in the message you were responding to. But the problem is, even if it's valid (and I'm not disagreeing it is), I don't feel it's really important. So long as Kroenke HAS an argument that the St. Louis market has failed, even if people disagree with it for valid reasons, that requirement, IMO, is checked off the list.

The browns and Falcons have punishments coming up. Haslam is supposedly looking at a year long suspension for texting to the coaches on the sideline.... Falcons for crowd noise (rumor for now is draft picks is the punishment)
We'll see just how their punishments turn out. Of course, there is a difference between cheating in the game and simply doing what one wants with the team they own. The Patriots got an absolute slap on the wrist for what they did though, and probably will again.

I disagree - the NFL does not want a repeat of the 90's with relocations. that's why the rules are in place... And it seems to me with how much Goodell keeps mentioning the teams must meet the relocation criteria.

You also gotta think about the overall perception of this move - it's not "Just a LA" issue...it also becomes an issue with owners. how long have the Raiders and Chargers been meeting the criteria, if not exceeding it, yet struggle to get a stadium? And if they're mentioning a move, you gotta believe they get first dibs at a move to LA before anyone else. Not to say that they'd be the only team there, but I don't think they're gonna build two stadiums... Which is also another point - even if Stan builds a stadium and the NFL denies the Rams a move - it won't be a complete waste..there are other neighboring franchises that could make use of it (College football teams, lease to Raiders/Chargers type of situation, etc.) I don't know how viable or realistic as a scenario this is, but it has mentioned as one of many "possibilities" or "fall backs."...
I agree Goodell is SAYING a lot of things. But I don't think those things will hold up once they start being tested, especially if it came to the point where Stan is threatening lawsuits. There still hasn't been a good answer as to what's changed in the bylaws that would make such a lawsuit fail despite the precedent.

I wouldn't say that he assumes he has control as much as he's consulted with owners who probably agree with him...And again, overall perception.
And I'm saying that if those owners don't have vested interest in keeping the Rams out of L.A. (and it really seems no one else but Oakland does), those votes could easily switch over.

The right thing is to keep the Rams in MO but the NFL is all about money. Bylaws don't mean crap but I do believe they can stop Stan from going rogue.
I disagree with your biased opinion because it conflicts with my biased opinion. ;)

But in seriousness, I don't think there is a moral component here. At the end of the day, the team belongs to Stan, and the NFL is going to have a hard time dictating that he can't run the business how (and where) he pleases.
 

iced

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I admitted there was a flip side in the message you were responding to. But the problem is, even if it's valid (and I'm not disagreeing it is), I don't feel it's really important. So long as Kroenke HAS an argument that the St. Louis market has failed, even if people disagree with it for valid reasons, that requirement, IMO, is checked off the list.

But he doesn't have an argument that he's exhausted all options. That's my point. And is one of the relocation rules

We'll see just how their punishments turn out. Of course, there is a difference between cheating in the game and simply doing what one wants with the team they own. The Patriots got an absolute slap on the wrist for what they did though, and probably will again.

When was the last time the NFL let a team get away with breaking an actual rule?


I agree Goodell is SAYING a lot of things. But I don't think those things will hold up once they start being tested, especially if it came to the point where Stan is threatening lawsuits. There still hasn't been a good answer as to what's changed in the bylaws that would make such a lawsuit fail despite the precedent.

That's what I question - these penalties are known before hand...They are already written, so I'm wondering how much leverage A court would have. Specifically when talking about the merchandising and the TV Market Share (last year the TV Revenue share was around $200m).

Now for draft picks? Pretty sure no court is going to have a say in that. Goodell could do whatever he wants in that regard since its not financial, and depending on the severity of that that could cripple a team.

And I'm saying that if those owners don't have vested interest in keeping the Rams out of L.A. (and it really seems no one else but Oakland does), those votes could easily switch over.

Chargers for sure have interest in keeping the Rams out. Not sure about Davis

I disagree with your biased opinion because it conflicts with my biased opinion. ;)
My opinion is bigger than your opinion! -sticks tongue out-
But in seriousness, I don't think there is a moral component here. At the end of the day, the team belongs to Stan, and the NFL is going to have a hard time dictating that he can't run the business how (and where) he pleases.

But there is also the history of the 90's - and the avoidance of wanting to recreate that situation. Hence the rules in the place - and the owners backing them and expecting them to be followed (particularly Art Rooney). I'm sure there won't be resistance if they feel he meets the criteria - however, if he doesn't, I'd expect there to be resistance.

Especially if its all about Dollars..if the penalty is share of the TV revenue, why wouldn't the other owners just divvy it up amongst themselves lol
 
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