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Boffo97

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We're going to have to agree to disagree on this. I don't know why you'd think anything else when the league has said all long that it will come down to multiple votes before any team can move. Nothing is going to be done out of bounds on this. Now whether or not the league gives Stan latitude on the "exhaust all negotiations" part is yet to be seen.
I'm actually a bit confused as to why you pointed out the last paragraph as something we need to agree to disagree on. If I were wanting the Rams to stay, I'd absolutely want Peacock & Blitz and whoever else to assume the bylaws were not going to be a barrier to Stan. After all, they really don't lose anything by doing so and trying to convince Kroenke to stay instead.

And why I don't take Goodell and the League at face value about this? Goodell says a LOT of things that don't really have connection to what actually happens. The man has no integrity and doesn't care about rules. When you add this to the precedent of the League being successfully sued over this before and none of the basic facts really changing in why they lost those cases (It would still be 31 businesses trying to dictate to another business about how they should run said business), I'm honestly not sure why you would believe anything the League says about this.

But I can agree to disagree.
 

bluecoconuts

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I had forgotten about the lease.

Also, has any team ever been allowed to move while their host city was still moving forward with a plan for a brand spanking new stadium? I really don't think anyone has. If St. Louis is fighting to keep this team, don't you think they might bring up a lawsuit if Stan just up and left without satisfying the relocation laws? I don't even know if that's possible considering they aren't locked into the city beyond a year by year lease at this point.

On what grounds would they sue though? They had a lease, the lease ended, the Rams left, there's no legal ground to file a lawsuit.

There hasn't been a team that has moved before with an offer on the table, no, but this is a unique situation, so its hard to look at previous actions as guidance. Its not just that if you make an offer suddenly the team has to stay, they need to accept the offer. Now I don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but it certainly doesn't appear that the Rams have accepted the offer, so the city needs to come back with something else. Its more complicated if Stan doesn't make a counter offer, but there's nothing in the rules that says he has to. If he really wants to leave, and it certainly seems he does, then the city needs to convince him otherwise.

While he'll go by the books and file for relocation and have it come to a vote, what are the odds the owners vote to block? He's doing something they want and have had trouble achieving, why would they say no to that? It just doesn't make sense to me. Plus if they say no what are the odds that Stan, after sinking all this time and money into LA he's going to just take a loss and then sink more money into St Louis? I think a lot of owners are going to consider that, and avoid the potential issues and just give him the go ahead. In my opinion if the city is interested in keeping the Rams they need to work to convince him, if they are interested in any NFL team and want them to remain interested then continuing on the current path is fine.
 

ChrisW

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Maybe you're right but this is where I'm going with this. I'd like someone to tell me what has changed in the bylaws that gives the league actual teeth if it were to tell an owner he couldn't move his team. I don't see it when I read through the bylaws and read about what took place in the 90s. Hell - I'll admit it. I got my doctorate at Google U but I haven't found anything said by the league, Peacock, or in their bylaws that convinces me that they could actually win if challenged. In fact, the only thing I see is people saying they really don't have the teeth to stop a move, only disapprove of one.

Yea, I agree. I can't find anything either. I've heard it said before. Shane put it in one of his articles. Maybe we can summon @ShaneG to ask him where the info is located on the change of bylaws since the musical chairs in the 90s.
 

ChrisW

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On what grounds would they sue though? They had a lease, the lease ended, the Rams left, there's no legal ground to file a lawsuit.

There hasn't been a team that has moved before with an offer on the table, no, but this is a unique situation, so its hard to look at previous actions as guidance. Its not just that if you make an offer suddenly the team has to stay, they need to accept the offer. Now I don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but it certainly doesn't appear that the Rams have accepted the offer, so the city needs to come back with something else. Its more complicated if Stan doesn't make a counter offer, but there's nothing in the rules that says he has to. If he really wants to leave, and it certainly seems he does, then the city needs to convince him otherwise.

While he'll go by the books and file for relocation and have it come to a vote, what are the odds the owners vote to block? He's doing something they want and have had trouble achieving, why would they say no to that? It just doesn't make sense to me. Plus if they say no what are the odds that Stan, after sinking all this time and money into LA he's going to just take a loss and then sink more money into St Louis? I think a lot of owners are going to consider that, and avoid the potential issues and just give him the go ahead. In my opinion if the city is interested in keeping the Rams they need to work to convince him, if they are interested in any NFL team and want them to remain interested then continuing on the current path is fine.


The owners need to take into consideration the can of worms they open if they let him leave while his host city is pursuing a stadium on such a fast tracked timeline. There's going to be a press conference today on land acquisition, and if they've gotten past that hurdle, the next is financing. If the governor wants it done, he can grease the wheels of the general assembly if it comes to that.

I think it's important to remember that above all else, the league looks out for itself. St. Louis has been touted as an important market. If they plow ahead and just move while a deal is moving ahead, it'll damage the integrity of the league in this market. Let's also not forget that even after the Ray Rice scandal, the tax free status of the league was called into question by some of those in the government. If they keep breaking their own rules, they are going to lose it.

It just seems like you and @Boffo97 are so sure that a move is going to happen. Maybe I'm the crazy one, but I'm not going to accept that until St. Louis hits a major roadblock in their proposal.
 

Boffo97

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It just seems like you and @Boffo97 are so sure that a move is going to happen. Maybe I'm the crazy one, but I'm not going to accept that until St. Louis hits a major roadblock in their proposal.
While I do think a move will likely happen, the point I'm trying to make here is that if a move DOESN'T happen, it's not going to be because of the bylaws because I strongly believe the NFL either won't bother enforcing them or will lose a lawsuit if they try to.

Does that mean it's absolutely certain St. Louis will lose the Rams? No, but they need to work on convincing Stan to stay rather than relying on worthless bylaws. At least IMO.
 

Rmfnlt

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The owners need to take into consideration the can of worms they open if they let him leave while his host city is pursuing a stadium on such a fast tracked timeline. There's going to be a press conference today on land acquisition, and if they've gotten past that hurdle, the next is financing. If the governor wants it done, he can grease the wheels of the general assembly if it comes to that.

I think it's important to remember that above all else, the league looks out for itself. St. Louis has been touted as an important market. If they plow ahead and just move while a deal is moving ahead, it'll damage the integrity of the league in this market. Let's also not forget that even after the Ray Rice scandal, the tax free status of the league was called into question by some of those in the government. If they keep breaking their own rules, they are going to lose it.

It just seems like you and @Boffo97 are so sure that a move is going to happen. Maybe I'm the crazy one, but I'm not going to accept that until St. Louis hits a major roadblock in their proposal.
Yeah.. seems some fans are leaning on the lack of discipline of Goddell and the NFL to enforce their own rules.

And you seem to be leaning on the public image the NFL would have to address if the STL stadium is moving forward and the NFL allows the team to move.

Both interesting angles.

Me? I am leaning on your side. IF... BIG IF... STL and MO can move the stadium forward with CONCRETE accomplishments (not flowery press conferecnes where no real momentum is actually being seen), then I think the NFL will have an image issue to deal with.

UNLESS... the NFL placates STL and moves another team into STL, which seems to be to be one of the biggest hurdles.
 
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Rmfnlt

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The memo reads:

“In particular, as has been discussed on numerous occasions and confirmed in various memoranda, any decision to resume NFL team operations in Los Angeles will require multiple approvals from NFL ownership, which can only be granted by a three-fourths vote of the clubs. These decisions include selection of a stadium site; approval of stadium lease and financing arrangements; and debt ceiling and sharing waivers (if needed); relocation consent and terms; and Super Bowl awards, among other subjects. A key role of this Special Committee will be to preserve the voting rights of the clubs on each of these important issues.”

Am I missing something here or does this signify that the rules have already been broken?

If "multiple approvals" apply to the selection of a stadium site, then the rules have already been ignored by Kroenke.

1] The site has been established
2] No vote by the owners has taken place regarding that site selection

Isn't that a violation?

Discuss...
 

tonyl711

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The owners need to take into consideration the can of worms they open if they let him leave while his host city is pursuing a stadium on such a fast tracked timeline. There's going to be a press conference today on land acquisition, and if they've gotten past that hurdle, the next is financing. If the governor wants it done, he can grease the wheels of the general assembly if it comes to that.

I think it's important to remember that above all else, the league looks out for itself. St. Louis has been touted as an important market. If they plow ahead and just move while a deal is moving ahead, it'll damage the integrity of the league in this market. Let's also not forget that even after the Ray Rice scandal, the tax free status of the league was called into question by some of those in the government. If they keep breaking their own rules, they are going to lose it.

It just seems like you and @Boffo97 are so sure that a move is going to happen. Maybe I'm the crazy one, but I'm not going to accept that until St. Louis hits a major roadblock in their proposal.
ill agree they both are so sure of things I almost wonder if they are in on the league meetings, truth be told none of us here really know whats going to happen.
 

ChrisW

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Am I missing something here or does this signify that the rules have already been broken?

If "multiple approvals" apply to the selection of a stadium site, then the rules have already been ignored by Kroenke.

1] The site has been established
2] No vote by the owners has taken place regarding that site selection

Isn't that a violation?

Discuss...

I don't think he's broken any rules. This is the same as Farmers' field. He just has a prospective site. There has been no rights granted to build a stadium there. He has to wait for the voting process.
 

ChrisW

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While I do think a move will likely happen, the point I'm trying to make here is that if a move DOESN'T happen, it's not going to be because of the bylaws because I strongly believe the NFL either won't bother enforcing them or will lose a lawsuit if they try to.

Does that mean it's absolutely certain St. Louis will lose the Rams? No, but they need to work on convincing Stan to stay rather than relying on worthless bylaws. At least IMO.

That's what the relocation bylaws are for. They give the host city a chance to prove it can get a deal done before the franchise looks elsewhere.
 

Boffo97

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ill agree they both are so sure of things I almost wonder if they are in on the league meetings, truth be told none of us here really know whats going to happen.
I really don't think that first part was necessary.

Sure, none of us know (including those who think the bylaws WILL be enforced) what's going to happen, but we can take educated guesses and two factors stand out for me:

1. Goodell has an established precedent of caring more for perceived integrity of the League than actual integrity, and thus not caring about rules as long as the "shield" continues to look good. A lawsuit by Stan would hurt the League's image far more than the Rams bolting even though a stadium has been proposed (after all, in that case, the door is still open for some other team to move to St. Louis). Other reasons have been given as to why Goodell would let it slide as well.

2. There's established legal precedent that 31 clubs trying to tell the 32nd how to do its business is a violation of anti-trust laws no matter what the bylaws say. At the end of the day, the team belongs to Stan (no matter how strongly we feel that it belongs to us or whatever city it happens to be in), and he's going to be able to do what he wants with it.

That's what the relocation bylaws are for. They give the host city a chance to prove it can get a deal done before the franchise looks elsewhere.
The franchise is already looking elsewhere. And St. Louis has already in all likelihood gotten such a delay anyway. What I don't think the bylaws are going to accomplish is keeping Stan in St. Louis against his will. Stan wouldn't have played things the way he has unless he's sure he's going to get his way one way or the other.

If the team stays in St. Louis, it's going to be because STAN was convinced to stay. And that's obvious without having to be in on league meetings.
 

RamBill

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St. Louis' plan to keep the Rams is a $400 million mistake

Updated by Joseph Stromberg on February 10, 2015, 10:22 a.m.

http://www.vox.com/2015/1/12/7525143/rams-stadium

Last month, St. Louis Rams owner Stan Kroenke announced plans to build an 80,000-seat stadium in Los Angeles, presumably in order to move the team there — the city in which it played from 1946 to 1994.

St. Louis city and state officials countered with their own plan to build a 64,000-seat stadium downtown, to entice the Rams to stay. Today, Missouri governor Jay Nixon is announcing a deal with a pair of rail agencies to move tracks to accommodate the new stadium. If it's built, it will cost between $860 and $985 million, with half the money coming from public funds.

The facts here are clear: building this stadium would be an absolutely terrible idea, even by the low standards of publicly-funded pro sports stadiums.

The project would mean paying a huge subsidy to a very profitable business that provides minimal benefits to the public — at the same time the city continues to pay off the debt from building the old Rams stadium, completed in 1995. It would take away millions away from public programs, and give them to a man worth an estimated $5.8 billion. Last, it would devour a large parcel of vacant land downtown, right on the Mississippi waterfront, to be used just ten times per year.

None of this is a particularly novel argument. But cities all over the country continue to give out absurd subsidies to pro sports teams, and get little in return. As long as it keeps happening, the same arguments stay relevant. Here's why St. Louis is better off letting the Rams head to Los Angeles.

The Rams have extorted St. Louis over and over

This is not the first time the Rams have squeezed money out of Missouri and St. Louis. They've been doing it since before they arrived in 1995.

In order to lure them from Los Angeles in the first place, the state of Missouri spent $300 million to build the Edward Jones Dome. But repaying the loans taken out to pay for it will end up costing the state, county, and city an estimated $720 million. They've also committed to paying all upkeep costs for the facility in perpetuity. In exchange, the Rams agreed to lease the dome for $500,000 per year for 30 years.

"the state and city will continue paying off the $720 million cost of the old dome until 2021"

But the lease came with a particularly sweet clause for the Rams: starting in 2015, if the dome wasn't among the top quarter of NFL stadiums (in terms of "quality"), the team could opt out of its lease at any time. That's how we ended up where we are now — the city and state will continue to pay off the costs of building the dome (almost exclusively used for football) until 2021, when the team will probably be long gone for Los Angeles.

Now, St. Louis has tried to keep the dome up, spending another $30 million on upgrades in 2009. Last year, to convince the team to stay, the city offered to spend as much as $124 million for more extensive renovations. But the team demanded far more — in the range of $700 to $800 million — a sign that owner Stan Kroenke, who took control of the team in 2010, was probably never interested in staying past 2015.

To put all this in context: the Rams are a for-profit business, and a very profitable one. They don't open their books, but one NFL team (the publicly-owned Green Bay Packers) does, and they generally make between $25 and $50 million a year.

What's most infuriating about this is that the reason the Rams were able to opt out of their lease — the relatively-new Edward Jones Dome no longer being a top-notch facility — is entirely due to the fact that other NFL teams have ripped off cities just as successfully.

Since the dome was completed, in 1995, 18 other cities have used public money to pay for NFL stadiums, paying for an average of 56 percent of the building cost. Often, teams have extracted this money by threatening to move to Los Angeles themselves, and have been rewarded with increasingly elaborate, luxury-box filled stadiums.

But this doesn't change the fact that the Edward Jones Dome — though admittedly a pretty charmless stadium — is a perfectly fine place to watch football.
The research is clear: sports teams aren't worth it

All this might be understandable if NFL teams were a major boon to the cities they played in. But research consistently shows that new stadiums provide fairly meager economic benefits.

Despite the claims of stadium boosters, independent analyses almost invariably find that the actual economic impacts are smaller than the public money spent for the stadiums. The only real exception is Los Angeles' Staples Center, which generates a fair amount of money for nearby businesses — because it's used about 250 days per year (it's home to two NBA teams, an NHL team, and a WNBA team). Despite the NFL's popularity, NFL stadiums are a far worse deal than other sports', because they're larger (taking up more real estate) and because NFL teams only play ten home games per year.

So in exchange for being saddled with another underused downtown stadium, St. Louis is desperately offering the Rams $500 million — while the city and state continue to pay off debts on the old stadium.

So why are cities so desperate to keep pro teams?

There are no economic benefits that compare with the hundreds of millions of public dollars spent on pro teams. The only plausible explanation for them that I can think of is the illusion of relevance.

A St. Louis with an NFL team, the thinking goes, is a nationally-relevant city. For the politicians who run St. Louis, that's an appealing idea, and one that leads them to make financially irresponsible decisions to keep the team there.

"buying stadiums for pro teams is not a business our governments should be in"

And I get it. For better or worse, I'm a huge NFL fan, and I spent the last decade terrified by the idea that my team (the hapless Buffalo Bills) might leave my hometown. I'm also a former St. Louis resident. I get why city officials are desperately presenting new stadium plans to forestall the inevitable. But Los Angeles has been without an NFL team for nearly 20 years now, and is still doing fine. This idea of relevance is an illusion.

The simple fact is that buying stadiums for pro sports team is not a business our governments should be in. And if they all resisted it, the cycle would be broken — these teams, after all, can only extract money because there are other cities out there willing to give it to them.

Let the Rams move to Los Angeles. Spend the money on St. Louis.
 

ChrisW

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1. Goodell has an established precedent of caring more for perceived integrity of the League than actual integrity, and thus not caring about rules as long as the "shield" continues to look good. A lawsuit by Stan would hurt the League's image far more than the Rams bolting even though a stadium has been proposed (after all, in that case, the door is still open for some other team to move to St. Louis). Other reasons have been given as to why Goodell would let it slide as well.

Why do you think a lawsuit would hurt the league image more than ditching a whole market putting good faith efforts forward in a brand new stadium?
 

Boffo97

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Why do you think a lawsuit would hurt the league image more than ditching a whole market putting good faith efforts forward in a brand new stadium?
A lawsuit would be on the news every night and be a potential danger to the League's anti-trust exemption (since that's precisely why Kroenke would sue.)

Leaving St. Louis while negotiations were ongoing might make a mention on the news (and more than that in St. Louis) but it would be mitigated by the fact that "good faith efforts" is always going to be a matter of opinion. Right now, if I were Kroenke and I wanted to leave, I'd say the current proposal on the table from St. Louis is unacceptable due to requiring public financing which seems to be in significant danger of falling through, and that I wasn't interested in paying money for a stadium I wouldn't own, and thus the proposal wasn't in good faith. And this isn't the only bylaw with such subjective language.

Do you really see a scenario where Kroenke ends up locked in to St. Louis despite actively wanting to leave? Do you think he would have played this the way he has if he even considered that to be possible?
 

BuiltRamTough

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When the NFL says it wants to control the LA market, what that means is they want the owner of the team to own the land and stadium. That is what Stan is giving them. Farmers Field and the other proposed stadiums in the LA area will never work bc the city and state would own the stadium
 

Rmfnlt

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http://www.insidestl.com/insideSTLc...ly-Pleased-With-Latest-St-Louis-Developm.aspx

Source: Roger Goodell “Extremely Pleased” With Latest St. Louis Developments
Tim McKernan posted on February 10, 2015 07:01
Source: Roger Goodell “Extremely Pleased” With Latest St. Louis Developments
If you thought the NFL had written off St. Louis, you may want to think again.
A source tells insideSTL.com that Missouri Governor Jay Nixon called Roger Goodell Friday to inform him that local officials have worked out deals with both Ameren and Terminal Railroad Association, two companies that own land where the proposed stadium would be built.
350_Goodell_SB_Presser_2.jpg

The source says Goodell was “extremely pleased and happy” with the news.
Why?
Publicly, this obstacle has not received nearly as much attention as the financing of the project, but had either Ameren or Terminal refused to work with officials, the proposed stadium could have been buried before it even had a chance to be built.
And, privately, some local officials and Commissioner Goodell himself were concerned that either Ameren or Terminal would not agree to a deal. But, late last week, they both did. Nixon called Goodell to let him know, and perhaps to those who are understandably concerned that St. Louis is witnessing its final NFL season, the NFL Commissioner was happy to hear that the stadium project can move forward.
 

ChrisW

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A lawsuit would be on the news every night and be a potential danger to the League's anti-trust exemption (since that's precisely why Kroenke would sue.)

Leaving St. Louis while negotiations were ongoing might make a mention on the news (and more than that in St. Louis) but it would be mitigated by the fact that "good faith efforts" is always going to be a matter of opinion. Right now, if I were Kroenke and I wanted to leave, I'd say the current proposal on the table from St. Louis is unacceptable due to requiring public financing which seems to be in significant danger of falling through, and that I wasn't interested in paying money for a stadium I wouldn't own, and thus the proposal wasn't in good faith. And this isn't the only bylaw with such subjective language.

Do you really see a scenario where Kroenke ends up locked in to St. Louis despite actively wanting to leave? Do you think he would have played this the way he has if he even considered that to be possible?

And you think not following their own bylaws isn't a danger to their anti-trust?

I get it, this is clearly your opinion. Fan support is everything to the league.
 

Boffo97

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And you think not following their own bylaws isn't a danger to their anti-trust?

I get it, this is clearly your opinion. Fan support is everything to the league.
I don't see how letting Kroenke slide on these particular bylaws COULD be a violation of anti-trust. An individual business owner would be doing what he wants to do with his own business. That's not the behavior of a trust.

Not quite sure where you're going with your last line. Of course it's my opinion. All we have here are opinions based on educated guesses as to how this would play out.

I would still be interested in your answers to my last two questions there though.
 

ChrisW

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I don't see how letting Kroenke slide on these particular bylaws COULD be a violation of anti-trust. An individual business owner would be doing what he wants to do with his own business. That's not the behavior of a trust.

Not quite sure where you're going with your last line. Of course it's my opinion. All we have here are opinions based on educated guesses as to how this would play out.

I would still be interested in your answers to my last two questions there though.

I'm not sure why Ray Rice beating his wife caught the ire of congress. But, once the elevator thing happened, there was some in congress calling it into question. The fact is, they are on a fine line with their status at this point. If they keep letting things be done without enforcing their rules, it's going to get a lot harder for the NFL to keep their exemption.


Do you really see a scenario where Kroenke ends up locked in to St. Louis despite actively wanting to leave? Do you think he would have played this the way he has if he even considered that to be possible?

I definitely could see Stan handcuffed to St. Louis despite wanting to be in LA. I think it's extremely short-sighted to believe he can move whenever he pleases without a vote. I think the way Stan has played this, is exactly how a genius real estate billionaire would play this. He's covering all his bases (or building in redundancies, if you will) to get the best possible deal for his franchise.
 
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