New: Latest on Kroenke, Rams and NFL in STL

[RamFan503]

I didn't think it would happen, but after watching Oliver's piece last night, I have made my peace with losing the Rams. If there is a public vote, I am voting no.

St. Louis deserves so much better than Stan Kroenke. If he can build it all himself in LA, let him. The city of Los Angeles deserves better than to sell it's fiscal soul to the devil also. I highly doubt Kroenke wouldn't be enjoying all kinds of tax breaks and the like, but whatever. He will be Inglewood's problem soon enough.

I guess I am the worst kind of fan, because losing the Rams means ending my relationship with this team and the league. Mizzou joining the SEC might be the best thing to happen to us from a professional football standpoint.

Peacock and Blitz's efforts are going to fall on deaf ears, or we are going to have to put up with the NFL equivalent of table scraps that is the Raiders. Either way, St. Louis deserves better than third place. We are a proud sports town with proud fans, but our city has other needs. The entertainment tax should be used to pay off the dome bonds, and then be done with it. Focus these efforts to make the North Riverfront beautiful and attract more young people to the urban core to rehabilitate the city. Elect public officials who will create a business friendly culture.

Man, this sucks. It feels like a break up, but its better to do it now than to wait before she starts seeing someone else. I am a football fan and an NFL fan, but I am a St. Louisan first. St. Louis deserves better.

Sucks. But well said.

 

[den-the-coach]

Its like we dated the fat chick, paid for her gym membership, bought all of the healthy food for her to lose weight, paid for her plastic surgery, only to watch her run off with the surgeon because he has more money and he can give her a better standard of living.

See the Cleveland Brown fans and the Baltimore Ravens that have won two Super Bowls and is run by one of the greatest Browns of all time in Ozzie Newsome!

Every time the Ravens make post season it kills certain Brown fans who feel that should be their team and BTW the New Browns keep losing.

 

[bubbaramfan]

Sorry you feel that way Irish. Just because the Rams move out of town doesn't mean you have to stop being a Ram Fan. It doesn't matter to me where they play, they priced me out of going to a live game a long time ago. 20$ for parking, walking a half mile to my nosebleed seat (100+$), 12$ beers, 10$ hot dog. waiting in line to take a leak and then have to stand in vomit or a puddle of piss. missing a whole qtr by the time I get back to my seat. Beer spilled down my back, drunks fighting in the isles. Its all irrelevant to where they play, I'll watch my Rams from the comfort of my Barco-Lounger and 64" HD tv, sipping Grolsch and Bar-B-Q'ing rib-eyes on the grill, and keep my 300$ in my pocket.
Unless I get invited to one of those catered corporate luxery boxes, I have a better game experience at home. I'll watch Stan's (my) Rams, but he ain't getting a dime from me.

 

[dieterbrock]

Yea, I know that. But, I would think he'd have grounds to sue if he could prove lose of revenue due to another franchise relocating. Or, that the loss would be covered in the relocation fees.

On another note, do we have a map of the home territories? I know there's some language that exists, but it'd be cool to see it in graphical format.

Not sure Spanos would have grounds to sue for loss of revenue considering he is currently willing to share a stadium with the Raiders. I cant see how another team would damage his revenue stream if they are playing in a seperate stadium vs sharing one

 

[RamFan503]

That's exactly my point. We don't know what Goldman has agreed to do. It's just assumed. We also don't know how Stan's co investors view an unsanctioned move. Its just assumed. And of course, Spanos is not on his own. My point is if Stan wins and SD is denied LA, Spanos can sue using every thing you've talked about over the last dozen pages or so. But yet when we talk about SD, suddenly the legal rights evaporate and poor weak Dean has to crawl back to SD.

I'm not saying Spanos won't try to sue if the NFL denies him LA. He very well could. But I doubt he has the wherewithal to go rogue if he doesn't get the nod. I think this is why we are all talking more about Stan. And it's not even that Stan would be likely to do it either. It's just that if anyone, Stan is the one who MIGHT be able to pull it off. I don't think we have really been talking about Stan staying put and suing. We've been talking more about Stan moving against the will of the NFL and using the threat of a lawsuit to make it happen. Still unlikely even for someone with about 11 billion in household money but much less likely with someone who has $1.2 counting pocket change.

I try not to say Kroenke when I am talking about anti trust but sometimes it comes out because of the question. All 3 owners have the same right to relocate but the issue is who has the ability to go through with it.

Yep. IF there is one who could pull off the expense and logistics of moving AND sue the NFL at the same time, it MIGHT be Kroenke. But the rights - I would assume - would be there for all three teams.

I would think this would be added into his share of the relocation fee. If Kroenke went rogue, then perhaps Spanos could sue him for cutting into his market, if he could prove that he gets that much business from the area.

Not sure he could sue Kroenke. He could maybe sue the NFL for a portion of the relocation fee. But there was once a time when there were two teams in LA AND the Chargers. Still - from the way the guidelines are written, it appears that it would already be a big consideration in the amount of the relocation fee. I'm assuming that if they do allow Stan to move, that any relocation fee would have a sum going to Spanos to not only pay for the alleged 25% but also to help in the building of a new stadium. I am also assuming that the same would be true for Stan if he should stay in St Louis.

It's part of what I think will be hammered out before this is all done. There is enough money to go around. Whoever gets LA is going to have some palms to grease. And it just may be the NFL greasing the palms on behalf of the chosen owner(s). Just my feelings on it.

Its funny.
I know the NFL and pro sports are very different than other businesses, but, most franchises have set territorial limits. It seems silly to me when the cities are 2 hours apart driving. Look at the situation in the bay area, New York, Florida with three teams. Silliness.

I think the Bylaws/guidelines say 75 miles is the standard local market with secondary markets extending beyond that. The key though is that they have all kinds of wording about considerations for markets with existing clubs, yada yada yada... I think this is just another example of why they relocation guidelines are truly considered guidelines. They seem intentionally arbitrary and are meant to be followed through agreement - not enforceability.

Yea, I know that. But, I would think he'd have grounds to sue if he could prove lose of revenue due to another franchise relocating. Or, that the loss would be covered in the relocation fees.

I think they will do something for him in the relocation fee IF Stan goes to LA. I don't however think he has much of a leg to stand on in a suit. The LA market has always been one that all the owners knew would be filled and likely by two teams. Spanos has had ample time to move there himself. His timing would have to be called into question and also the geographic locations of other NFL markets considered. Still - he could likely sue if the NFL said no to him as far as LA goes.

Stan would be suing because they attempted or did prevent him from conducting business in another city - not because somehow another club was taking his market share.

My understanding is it is just language....like a delivery territory will have specific guidelines ....the city border on the north and east and such and such a street on the west etc for example.

Yeah - It's in the guidelines but has all kinds of caveats leaving it up to the discretion of the NFL.

 

[ramfaninsd]

Sorry you feel that way Irish. Just because the Rams move out of town doesn't mean you have to stop being a Ram Fan. It doesn't matter to me where they play, they priced me out of going to a live game a long time ago. 20$ for parking, walking a half mile to my nosebleed seat (100+$), 12$ beers, 10$ hot dog. waiting in line to take a leak and then have to stand in vomit or a puddle of pee pee. missing a whole qtr by the time I get back to my seat. Beer spilled down my back, drunks fighting in the isles. Its all irrelevant to where they play, I'll watch my Rams from the comfort of my Barco-Lounger and 64" HD tv, sipping Grolsch and Bar-B-Q'ing rib-eyes on the grill, and keep my 300$ in my pocket.
Unless I get invited to one of those catered corporate luxery boxes, I have a better game experience at home. I'll watch Stan's (my) Rams, but he ain't getting a dime from me.

i agree whether they stay or not i will still be a rams fan. most of us from the pre st louis era who stayed rams fans will always be rams fans. but i am of the opinion most fans from st louis will not be if they relocate. they are more tied to the city than the team.

 

[dieterbrock]

Its like we dated the fat chick, paid for her gym membership, bought all of the healthy food for her to lose weight, paid for her plastic surgery, only to watch her run off with the surgeon because he has more money and he can give her a better standard of living.

Well that fat chick was the hottest chick around for a couple of years though. And in all fairness with your analogy the dude the fat chick left in the first place? Well she ended up back with him

 

[RamFan503]

Sorry you feel that way Irish. Just because the Rams move out of town doesn't mean you have to stop being a Ram Fan. It doesn't matter to me where they play, they priced me out of going to a live game a long time ago. 20$ for parking, walking a half mile to my nosebleed seat (100+$), 12$ beers, 10$ hot dog. waiting in line to take a leak and then have to stand in vomit or a puddle of pee pee. missing a whole qtr by the time I get back to my seat. Beer spilled down my back, drunks fighting in the isles. Its all irrelevant to where they play, I'll watch my Rams from the comfort of my Barco-Lounger and 64" HD tv, sipping Grolsch and Bar-B-Q'ing rib-eyes on the grill, and keep my 300$ in my pocket.
Unless I get invited to one of those catered corporate luxery boxes, I have a better game experience at home. I'll watch Stan's (my) Rams, but he ain't getting a dime from me.

Y'know - It's funny you say this. Anymore, for me a game tends to center around traveling. It is so expensive, that I end up building a trip around it. Even if it is in Seattle, it becomes a mini vacation. I'm not sure I would buy season tickets if the place was right next to me. I would probably go to an extra game or two each year but mostly, I would be at a bar or at home, enjoying the game in much more comfortable surroundings. Still - few things rival the whole game day experience.

 

[beej]

this whole deal follows some kind of a wave pattern in St Louis with people feeling good about the rams staying one minute and then as "up" as they were last week, they are down the next week. And nothing really changes except some new guy in the media asks some open ended question in an article or tv show, that some other guy already asked and never got an answer for.

it will be interesting to see if those waves get more extreme or flatten out as the season progresses. My guess is more extreme with highs and lows becoming exaggerated with wins and losses

 

[dbrooks25]

this whole deal follows some kind of a wave pattern in St Louis with people feeling good about the rams staying one minute and then as "up" as they were last week, they are down the next week. And nothing really changes except some new guy in the media asks some open ended question in an article or tv show, that some other guy already asked and never got an answer for.

it will be interesting to see if those waves get more extreme or flatten out as the season progresses. My guess is more extreme with highs and lows becoming exaggerated with wins and losses

Man, I agree. I let out a laugh reading the past few posts. What happened where all of a sudden morale is low for some Stl People? I'll tell you, NOTHING.

I agree, this emotional seesaw will get more extreme as we get closer to decision time. I listen to the Fast Lane on 101 espn daily in order to keep up with what is going on regarding this and then I go off of Karraker's response beacuse I normally trust his opinion as he's normally straight up about these things. So far today, nothing new has come out of his mouth regarding this and I will be listening until they are off the air in 3 hours.

 

[MrMotes]

I'd say Spanos has zero chance of suing an L.A. team for loss of revenue.

For all the losing, The Rams won their only SB in St. Louis and went to another...

 

[RamBill]

Rams don't produce enough tax revenue? Conventions do, commission says
• By David Hunn

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_7ba51f5e-0670-507a-949f-eecdfbd8806c.html

ST. LOUIS • Conventions held at the Edward Jones Dome will produce about $23 million this year in total tax revenue, more than enough to cover city debt payments on the Dome, according to estimates newly released by regional leaders.

Twenty-one conventions booked the Jones Dome this year, reported the St. Louis Convention & Visitors Commission. Together, those events will bring more than 350,000 people downtown, book more than 200,000 nights at area hotels, and spend more than $122 million, the estimates say.

“As much as we all love the Rams and attending Rams games, there’s much more activity that’s taking place in the Dome over the course of any particular calendar year,” said Brian Hall, the commission’s chief marketing officer.

The spending, according to estimates, should result in nearly $10 million in state tax revenue and a little more than $13 million for St. Louis city and St. Louis County. The calculator could not distinguish between the two.

Convention center staff released the data to the Post-Dispatch late last week. It comes as Gov. Jay Nixon’s stadium task force labors to piece together a financing package for a new $985 million open-air riverfront arena, in hopes of keeping the Rams in St. Louis. It also follows revelations late last month that National Football League games at the Edward Jones Dome, where the Rams play, don’t send enough tax revenue to St. Louis city coffers to cover the city’s annual debt and upkeep payment.

The Rams produce an estimated $4.2 million a year in city taxes — from ticket sales, payroll, concessions, etc., according to city budget division estimates — two-thirds of the $6 million the city pays annually to cover Jones Dome debt and upkeep.

The issue could become a key point in the debate over the new arena. A St. Louis Circuit Court judge is deciding now whether city residents must vote before the city can spend money on a new stadium.

Officials have said for months that the city will pay no more for the new stadium than the $6 million now sent annually to the Jones Dome.

The city isn’t the only part of the equation. The state sends $12 million to the Dome for debt and upkeep every year. St. Louis County matches the city’s contribution.

But the county is not, so far, paying for the new stadium. County Executive Steve Stenger said he’d push for a public vote before committing the county’s dollars; Nixon then cut the county out of plans.

And the state has already released tax revenue projections saying a new stadium would produce plenty of state taxes. The Department of Economic Development predicted in March a net return to the state of about $10 million a year over the next 30 years, largely from personal income taxes paid by football players and staff.

But the revelations last month from the city budget division cast doubt on the idea that city tax revenue from the NFL could underwrite a future project — since they don’t support the debt on a project already built.

City leaders protested the premise. The Dome was always meant to land bigger conventions and boost city tax dollars outside of NFL games, too.

“There was never any misconception that the Rams covered that debt,” said Maggie Crane, Mayor Francis Slay's communication director. “Our convention center does a bang-up job considering they can only book it six months out of the year, or whatever.”

Part of the benefit of a new stadium, said Nixon task-force member and former Anheuser-Busch President Dave Peacock, is “unlocking opportunity” at the Dome, by moving NFL games to a new arena and using the Dome for conventions more often.

It’s hard to guess, both Crane and Peacock said, as to whether tax revenues generated by a new stadium might eventually cover the debt payments. That will depend a lot on exactly what else ends up in the new stadium: A Major League Soccer team? Rock concerts?

But they’re certain the Dome could produce more revenue.

This year, the Jones Dome attracted about 55,000 downtown in January for the St. Louis Monster Jam truck competition. It brought 30,000 here in April for the national FIRST Robotics Championship, in which students build robots and compete against each other.

And just last week, the commission estimated 28,000 arrived for Herbalife International’s North American Extravaganza.

Economists often warn about over-valuing such events. Convention commissions are notorious for overestimating, said Joseph Miller, a policy analyst at the libertarian Show-Me Institute here in St. Louis. “The idea that they're raising $23 million in tax revenue, it's preposterous,” Miller said.

But it’s easy to see the draw of such conventions, too. This past weekend, Herbalife attendees packed the Dome with tens of thousands of screaming, chanting, singing sales people. Downtown bars and restaurants filled with the nutrition company’s green t-shirts, binders and buttons. Sleepy summer sidewalks bustled.

Jesenia Cruz, 35, flew in from Puerto Rico, and called St. Louis “super cool.” Cameron Butterly, 28, traveled from Australia, and said he wanted to come back for an NFL game.

And Aaron Diaz, 24, said he caravanned in with a contingent from Oklahoma. They were staying at a local hotel, had gone to the St. Louis Zoo and the City Museum, eaten sushi, bought groceries, and visited Rosalita’s, on Washington Avenue, twice.

The convention was good so far. But it was the trip to St. Louis, Diaz said, that brought him.

 

[LesBaker]

Rams don't produce enough tax revenue? Conventions do, commission says
• By David Hunn

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_7ba51f5e-0670-507a-949f-eecdfbd8806c.html

ST. LOUIS • Conventions held at the Edward Jones Dome will produce about $23 million this year in total tax revenue, more than enough to cover city debt payments on the Dome, according to estimates newly released by regional leaders.

Twenty-one conventions booked the Jones Dome this year, reported the St. Louis Convention & Visitors Commission. Together, those events will bring more than 350,000 people downtown, book more than 200,000 nights at area hotels, and spend more than $122 million, the estimates say.

“As much as we all love the Rams and attending Rams games, there’s much more activity that’s taking place in the Dome over the course of any particular calendar year,” said Brian Hall, the commission’s chief marketing officer.

The spending, according to estimates, should result in nearly $10 million in state tax revenue and a little more than $13 million for St. Louis city and St. Louis County. The calculator could not distinguish between the two.

Convention center staff released the data to the Post-Dispatch late last week. It comes as Gov. Jay Nixon’s stadium task force labors to piece together a financing package for a new $985 million open-air riverfront arena, in hopes of keeping the Rams in St. Louis. It also follows revelations late last month that National Football League games at the Edward Jones Dome, where the Rams play, don’t send enough tax revenue to St. Louis city coffers to cover the city’s annual debt and upkeep payment.

The Rams produce an estimated $4.2 million a year in city taxes — from ticket sales, payroll, concessions, etc., according to city budget division estimates — two-thirds of the $6 million the city pays annually to cover Jones Dome debt and upkeep.

The issue could become a key point in the debate over the new arena. A St. Louis Circuit Court judge is deciding now whether city residents must vote before the city can spend money on a new stadium.

Officials have said for months that the city will pay no more for the new stadium than the $6 million now sent annually to the Jones Dome.

The city isn’t the only part of the equation. The state sends $12 million to the Dome for debt and upkeep every year. St. Louis County matches the city’s contribution.

But the county is not, so far, paying for the new stadium. County Executive Steve Stenger said he’d push for a public vote before committing the county’s dollars; Nixon then cut the county out of plans.

And the state has already released tax revenue projections saying a new stadium would produce plenty of state taxes. The Department of Economic Development predicted in March a net return to the state of about $10 million a year over the next 30 years, largely from personal income taxes paid by football players and staff.

But the revelations last month from the city budget division cast doubt on the idea that city tax revenue from the NFL could underwrite a future project — since they don’t support the debt on a project already built.

City leaders protested the premise. The Dome was always meant to land bigger conventions and boost city tax dollars outside of NFL games, too.

“There was never any misconception that the Rams covered that debt,” said Maggie Crane, Mayor Francis Slay's communication director. “Our convention center does a bang-up job considering they can only book it six months out of the year, or whatever.”

Part of the benefit of a new stadium, said Nixon task-force member and former Anheuser-Busch President Dave Peacock, is “unlocking opportunity” at the Dome, by moving NFL games to a new arena and using the Dome for conventions more often.

It’s hard to guess, both Crane and Peacock said, as to whether tax revenues generated by a new stadium might eventually cover the debt payments. That will depend a lot on exactly what else ends up in the new stadium: A Major League Soccer team? Rock concerts?

But they’re certain the Dome could produce more revenue.

This year, the Jones Dome attracted about 55,000 downtown in January for the St. Louis Monster Jam truck competition. It brought 30,000 here in April for the national FIRST Robotics Championship, in which students build robots and compete against each other.

And just last week, the commission estimated 28,000 arrived for Herbalife International’s North American Extravaganza.

Economists often warn about over-valuing such events. Convention commissions are notorious for overestimating, said Joseph Miller, a policy analyst at the libertarian Show-Me Institute here in St. Louis. “The idea that they're raising $23 million in tax revenue, it's preposterous,” Miller said.

But it’s easy to see the draw of such conventions, too. This past weekend, Herbalife attendees packed the Dome with tens of thousands of screaming, chanting, singing sales people. Downtown bars and restaurants filled with the nutrition company’s green t-shirts, binders and buttons. Sleepy summer sidewalks bustled.

Jesenia Cruz, 35, flew in from Puerto Rico, and called St. Louis “super cool.” Cameron Butterly, 28, traveled from Australia, and said he wanted to come back for an NFL game.

And Aaron Diaz, 24, said he caravanned in with a contingent from Oklahoma. They were staying at a local hotel, had gone to the St. Louis Zoo and the City Museum, eaten sushi, bought groceries, and visited Rosalita’s, on Washington Avenue, twice.

The convention was good so far. But it was the trip to St. Louis, Diaz said, that brought him.

I've tried to tell people that for years, literally YEARS, because I have knowledge of the event business. This is why SK owns all of his venues, and lots of other owners in different leagues do to. There is more money in that than there is in owning the Rams. The Dome will be able to add dates that make the city more money. Just like they did in Indy, where the stadium and convention center were all one building. Now the team makes more and the city makes more.

 

[LesBaker]

I didn't think it would happen, but after watching Oliver's piece last night, I have made my peace with losing the Rams. If there is a public vote, I am voting no.

St. Louis deserves so much better than Stan Kroenke. If he can build it all himself in LA, let him. The city of Los Angeles deserves better than to sell it's fiscal soul to the devil also. I highly doubt Kroenke wouldn't be enjoying all kinds of tax breaks and the like, but whatever. He will be Inglewood's problem soon enough.

I guess I am the worst kind of fan, because losing the Rams means ending my relationship with this team and the league. Mizzou joining the SEC might be the best thing to happen to us from a professional football standpoint.

Peacock and Blitz's efforts are going to fall on deaf ears, or we are going to have to put up with the NFL equivalent of table scraps that is the Raiders. Either way, St. Louis deserves better than third place. We are a proud sports town with proud fans, but our city has other needs. The entertainment tax should be used to pay off the dome bonds, and then be done with it. Focus these efforts to make the North Riverfront beautiful and attract more young people to the urban core to rehabilitate the city. Elect public officials who will create a business friendly culture.

Man, this sucks. It feels like a break up, but its better to do it now than to wait before she starts seeing someone else. I am a football fan and an NFL fan, but I am a St. Louisan first. St. Louis deserves better.

Irish I think you are WAY off base.

STL "deserves so much better than Stan Kroenke" ???

He was in part responsible for bringing the Rams to STL.....did you forget that?

He isn't doing anything that every other owner in every pro sport has done in the past. I'm amazed that fans think they have the right to know what is going on with negotiations and that an owner owes them an explanation of how they are moving along.

Who knows what is going to happen.......but slamming Kroenke is just silly. This is EXACTLY how these kinds of negotiations occur. You're acting like a jilted lover because your girl didn't return a text ASAP.

Relax, this is far from over. And my money is still on the Rams staying in STL in a beauty of a stadium. That Kroenke owns.

 

[bubbaramfan]

I think the conventions are part of Stan's problem. CVC has booked the ED Jones Dome for other events, making the NFL schedule the Rams on the road their last two games of the season three years running. This article proves the conventions are more important than the Rams as far as the Ed Jones Dome is concerned. Anyone think that might not sit too well with the Rams owner? ( not to mention the Rams players). Just another reason for him to want to move
Looks to me like the CVC can't wait for the Rams to move out of the ED so they can schedule more conventions, after all, according to this article,they generate more money than the Rams.

 

[LesBaker]

I think the conventions are part of Stan's problem. CVC has booked the ED Jones Dome for other events, making the NFL schedule the Rams on the road their last two games of the season three years running. This article proves the conventions are more important than the Rams as far as the Ed Jones Dome is concerned. Anyone think that might not sit too well with the Rams owner? ( not to mention the Rams players). Just another reason for him to want to move
Looks to me like the CVC can't wait for the Rams to move out of the ED so they can schedule more conventions, after all, according to this article,they generate more money than the Rams.

That isn't a valid argument considering it isn't like they didn't know thee are other events, they have been a tenant for two decades, and SK owns venues that host shit tons of events so he understands how the business works.

It's not some big secret that conventions and other events make more money than a sporting event. So this article doesn't "prove" anything, it simply states what lots and lots of people knew already.

As far as the CVC wanting the Rams to move.....LOL why do you think they put together s shit proposal and why do you think the Rams then countered with a pie-in-the-sky proposal that they knew was never going to fly.

They want to part ways, now they can, and now they will.

 

[RamFan503]

I've tried to tell people that for years, literally YEARS, because I have knowledge of the event business. This is why SK owns all of his venues, and lots of other owners in different leagues do to. There is more money in that than there is in owning the Rams. The Dome will be able to add dates that make the city more money. Just like they did in Indy, where the stadium and convention center were all one building. Now the team makes more and the city makes more.

Sorry - your opportunity to answer these kinds of questions was several pages ago when I tagged you asking for your input on this very issue.

Seriously, thanks and I think there will be more questions for you on this issue. Between you and Sum - you two probably have the most insight of all our members on the event business.

 

[RamFan503]

That isn't a valid argument considering it isn't like they didn't know thee are other events, they have been a tenant for two decades, and SK owns venues that host crap tons of events so he understands how the business works.

It's not some big secret that conventions and other events make more money than a sporting event. So this article doesn't "prove" anything, it simply states what lots and lots of people knew already.

As far as the CVC wanting the Rams to move.....LOL why do you think they put together s crap proposal and why do you think the Rams then countered with a pie-in-the-sky proposal that they knew was never going to fly.

They want to part ways, now they can, and now they will.

I have to agree that what the CVC and Kroenke did in arbitration was nothing more than angling. And I also agree that the true way to keep the Rams is to pull a NY and offer Stan the land so he can build his own project. I still think he would love to build and own a stadium in the shadow of the Arch that he grew up with and for which no doubt has the warm and fuzzies.

Oh to be a fly on the wall to witness what is actually going on behind closed doors.

 

[rams2050]

So, all they consider is ticket sales, concession sales and parking? What about all the food and TVs and other party stuff the tailgaters buy -- I know; I have tailgated. What I have purchased grocery-wise and liquor-wise -- for my tailgating is more than I usually spend in a month for groceries/liquor.

And when I moved away from St. Louis I now travel back and forth, sometimes staying in St. Louis overnight and ALWAYS eating dinner in town -- usually at a very good restaurant. We'll occasionally visit other attractions, take a carriage ride, eat breakfast downtown at one of the good hotels, etc. Have they calculated into their overall figures folks like me and my family???

No, it doesn't seem like they have done so, which is a shame.

 

[blue4]

Rams don't produce enough tax revenue? Conventions do, commission says
• By David Hunn

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_7ba51f5e-0670-507a-949f-eecdfbd8806c.html

ST. LOUIS • Conventions held at the Edward Jones Dome will produce about $23 million this year in total tax revenue, more than enough to cover city debt payments on the Dome, according to estimates newly released by regional leaders.

Twenty-one conventions booked the Jones Dome this year, reported the St. Louis Convention & Visitors Commission. Together, those events will bring more than 350,000 people downtown, book more than 200,000 nights at area hotels, and spend more than $122 million, the estimates say.

“As much as we all love the Rams and attending Rams games, there’s much more activity that’s taking place in the Dome over the course of any particular calendar year,” said Brian Hall, the commission’s chief marketing officer.

The spending, according to estimates, should result in nearly $10 million in state tax revenue and a little more than $13 million for St. Louis city and St. Louis County. The calculator could not distinguish between the two.

Convention center staff released the data to the Post-Dispatch late last week. It comes as Gov. Jay Nixon’s stadium task force labors to piece together a financing package for a new $985 million open-air riverfront arena, in hopes of keeping the Rams in St. Louis. It also follows revelations late last month that National Football League games at the Edward Jones Dome, where the Rams play, don’t send enough tax revenue to St. Louis city coffers to cover the city’s annual debt and upkeep payment.

The Rams produce an estimated $4.2 million a year in city taxes — from ticket sales, payroll, concessions, etc., according to city budget division estimates — two-thirds of the $6 million the city pays annually to cover Jones Dome debt and upkeep.

The issue could become a key point in the debate over the new arena. A St. Louis Circuit Court judge is deciding now whether city residents must vote before the city can spend money on a new stadium.

Officials have said for months that the city will pay no more for the new stadium than the $6 million now sent annually to the Jones Dome.

The city isn’t the only part of the equation. The state sends $12 million to the Dome for debt and upkeep every year. St. Louis County matches the city’s contribution.

But the county is not, so far, paying for the new stadium. County Executive Steve Stenger said he’d push for a public vote before committing the county’s dollars; Nixon then cut the county out of plans.

And the state has already released tax revenue projections saying a new stadium would produce plenty of state taxes. The Department of Economic Development predicted in March a net return to the state of about $10 million a year over the next 30 years, largely from personal income taxes paid by football players and staff.

But the revelations last month from the city budget division cast doubt on the idea that city tax revenue from the NFL could underwrite a future project — since they don’t support the debt on a project already built.

City leaders protested the premise. The Dome was always meant to land bigger conventions and boost city tax dollars outside of NFL games, too.

“There was never any misconception that the Rams covered that debt,” said Maggie Crane, Mayor Francis Slay's communication director. “Our convention center does a bang-up job considering they can only book it six months out of the year, or whatever.”

Part of the benefit of a new stadium, said Nixon task-force member and former Anheuser-Busch President Dave Peacock, is “unlocking opportunity” at the Dome, by moving NFL games to a new arena and using the Dome for conventions more often.

It’s hard to guess, both Crane and Peacock said, as to whether tax revenues generated by a new stadium might eventually cover the debt payments. That will depend a lot on exactly what else ends up in the new stadium: A Major League Soccer team? Rock concerts?

But they’re certain the Dome could produce more revenue.

This year, the Jones Dome attracted about 55,000 downtown in January for the St. Louis Monster Jam truck competition. It brought 30,000 here in April for the national FIRST Robotics Championship, in which students build robots and compete against each other.

And just last week, the commission estimated 28,000 arrived for Herbalife International’s North American Extravaganza.

Economists often warn about over-valuing such events. Convention commissions are notorious for overestimating, said Joseph Miller, a policy analyst at the libertarian Show-Me Institute here in St. Louis. “The idea that they're raising $23 million in tax revenue, it's preposterous,” Miller said.

But it’s easy to see the draw of such conventions, too. This past weekend, Herbalife attendees packed the Dome with tens of thousands of screaming, chanting, singing sales people. Downtown bars and restaurants filled with the nutrition company’s green t-shirts, binders and buttons. Sleepy summer sidewalks bustled.

Jesenia Cruz, 35, flew in from Puerto Rico, and called St. Louis “super cool.” Cameron Butterly, 28, traveled from Australia, and said he wanted to come back for an NFL game.

And Aaron Diaz, 24, said he caravanned in with a contingent from Oklahoma. They were staying at a local hotel, had gone to the St. Louis Zoo and the City Museum, eaten sushi, bought groceries, and visited Rosalita’s, on Washington Avenue, twice.

The convention was good so far. But it was the trip to St. Louis, Diaz said, that brought him.

This is kind of old news. It's been known for years that the dome makes more off of conventions. That's why no one in STL thought $700 million to rebuild the dome was any kind of an idea.