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ChrisW

Stating the obvious
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So if you had a street corner property and someone wanted put a down payment on it to reserve it for say, a Christmas tree lot, that would be public money?

When I hear Public vs. Private in the scenario of the Stadium, I think of the Owner's contribution vs. the public contribution.

When the money comes from the public to buy seat licenses this sound more like a public contribution to me.

But if you want to hold it to tax revenue only, then it would make sense for PSLs to count as a private contribution from the public.
 

bluecoconuts

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It was because of Rams, Raiders, and another team's colors (I can't remember which team right now).. And yea I saw other teams jerseys for sure, and every time I was personally told or someone in my group it was because of "gang colors".

The Air force, including their officers, were allowed to fatigues off base as well as Army and Marines. In the Seabees (Navy), we were not unless it was for a necessary reason (like gas station, food/lunch,etc.) They started relaxing a bit more on it when i was getting out in 2011 but they were still kinda anal about it.

The perception of the gang culture I had of ventura, particularly near the base i was at was pretty rough initially. There are 3 bases in ventura: Port Hueneme (mine), Point Mugu Air station, Nicolas island). I remember once or twice hearing gun shots off in the distance late at night from the base - apparently the beach area near the base wasn't the greatest place at night. Don't recall it being that bad for too long though... As far as the colors go - I don't know if it was actual gang colors or just an assumption, but multiple places asked me to take it off or outright leave.

I'm trying to remember what places gave me crap about it - I wanna say Cheesecake factory was one of them. It was mostly restaurants that banned that type of thing.

The first time it had happened to me I literally had just walked through the door, was told those colors weren't allowed due to gang relations and I was asked to leave immediately. I just laughed and went somewhere else... Another time I was asked to leave, once to take off my sweater and put it in the car, a couple times they let me put it on ground/in the booth/etc.

I got sick of that crap so quickly. I switched apartment complexes after 1 year so I could get direct TV and wear my gear at home while watching the game.... and then I got the kegerator for my birthday present from the ex..right before the 2009 season... Great timing lol :cheers::cheers:

That's interesting, because its not the case in LA County as far as I can tell. Could be a local thing I guess. There's often high rates of crime around military posts, I do know that, so it could factor in.

Otherwise I've never heard of Rams gear being associated with gangs.
 

iced

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When I hear Public vs. Private in the scenario of the Stadium, I think of the Owner's contribution vs. the public contribution.

When the money comes from the public to buy seat licenses this sound more like a public contribution to me.

But if you want to hold it to tax revenue only, then it would make sense for PSLs to count as a private contribution from the public.

^ he said it best for me lol
 

iced

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That's interesting, because its not the case in LA County as far as I can tell. Could be a local thing I guess. There's often high rates of crime around military posts, I do know that, so it could factor in.

Otherwise I've never heard of Rams gear being associated with gangs.

yea and its weird because of the proximity of ventura to LA county - i mean they're literally right next to each other...i was maybe an hour tops from LA
 

bluecoconuts

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yea and its weird because of the proximity of ventura to LA county - i mean they're literally right next to each other...i was maybe an hour tops from LA

Maybe they really like the Cowboys holding training camp there?


Also in terms of PSLs, I believe that money goes to the city, not Kroenke. Meaning that after the stadium is built, any new PSL money doesn't go to Stan, which means less revenue. Thats part of why I don't think they will factor that in as public money. Added to that Stan likes to own and operate his stadiums, and he doesn't get that in St Louis, he can make the case, much like Spanos has been doing, that while the stadium plan might be good, its not good for him.
 

Sum1

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The only thing I've heard is Goldman Sachs will help secure funds from PSLs, and naming rights, stuff like that, which they have done for the 49ers and the Giants/Jets. They're not funding it or putting in their own money. Meaning if the Raiders need to come up with significant amounts of cash at this point, unless something changes.



I've never said he was Rams or nothing, but why would he just give up? He's supposed to sell low, and then hope that Davis is successfully forced out by the NFL and then buy that team? If he cares that much about LA isn't it easier to just move them and go to court? There's plenty of unknown in both scenarios, but court at least there's some precedent, and its probably cheaper and easier.

What does he do if Davis doesn't want to give up the Raiders, and sues/wins that court case? Then Kroenke is SOL. It just doesn't make any sense to me.



What? Where did you hear that? I don't think I've ever seen anyone be asked to move based on wearing Rams/Raiders gear. Raiders get is more associated with gang culture, but I've still never seen it.

And there isn't precedence in swapping franchises?

I think it is a little difficult to make assumptions of what is and isn't easy when we are talking about hypotheticals.

Why is it assumed that a franchise flip scenario equates to Stan "giving up"...that makes zero sense to me. What if the scenario is simply a negotiation between the individual owners and the league to make the situation work out best as a whole?

I think it's been out there enough that Kroenke doesn't want to go rouge through enough outlets that that isn't an assumption. Doesn't mean he WON'T but it sure seems like he wants to work within the leagues boundaries rather than against them...so why should we dismiss that he wouldn't want to go that route? After all, Kroenke wanted to be part of the expansion team in St. Louis and when it didn't work out he jumped in on the Rams to Stl deal. That's pretty telling this wasn't about owning the Rams but rather owning an NFL team. 20 years later LA is attractive to him and I'd have to believe if he owned the hypothetical STL expansion team with the same set of circumstances and LA was sitting dormant that none of this would be any different.

What if Davis doesn't want to give up the Raiders...? Ok, what if he does? What if there is a deal in place that makes sense for Mr. Davis to make that move?
 

iced

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Maybe they really like the Cowboys holding training camp there

Not sure why - that place always smelled like horse manure (drove by it every day to and from base).

Doing a quick google search listed a lot of different spanish gangs there in that area (zoom in oxnard/ cbc base)

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=zN85NJfsbSnM.k7DeR3PbATPw

upload_2015-5-11_16-44-31.png


Also in terms of PSLs, I believe that money goes to the city, not Kroenke. Meaning that after the stadium is built, any new PSL money doesn't go to Stan, which means less revenue. Thats part of why I don't think they will factor that in as public money. Added to that Stan likes to own and operate his stadiums, and he doesn't get that in St Louis, he can make the case, much like Spanos has been doing, that while the stadium plan might be good, its not good for him.

yea brian explained it better for me - maybe he can clarify better how it works or @Goose can in regards to PSL
 

Young Ram

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I know for a fact this is true - happened to me a couple times when I was wearing my Rams Sweater, Bulger Jersey, Long jersey, and Bradford jersey. Happened more often times than not for my Raider buddies when we went out...

Hell we were briefed on it during indoc about how some of the restaurants/bars felt about football teams colors.

Ventura/Camarillo/Port hueneme area's
Lol I live in Ventura county and I have never been told to leave a restaurant or bar just because I'm wearing my rams gear.
 

RAGRam

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Go watch the Grubman press conference in San Diego PSL's are revenues of the owner. Their ticket sales and as such are revenues of the team. Public money is from local and state governments. Peacock said in front of the house committee that the public money is only 40% and a lot less than what other cities have had to pay.

You could just rename them though right? If the city is going to own the stadium (I believe that's how owners prefer it, could be wrong) why not call them a share in the stadium?
 

iced

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Lol I live in Ventura county and I have never been told to leave a restaurant or bar just because I'm wearing my rams gear.

-shrug- i must have bad luck.. 4 or 5x in 5 years, take off about a year for military movements
 

The Ripper

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Not sure why - that place always smelled like horse manure (drove by it every day to and from base).

Doing a quick google search listed a lot of different spanish gangs there in that area

https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=zN85NJfsbSnM.k7DeR3PbATPw




yea brian explained it better for me - maybe he can clarify better how it works or @Goose can in regards to PSL

The owner has the option of using PSL's for stadium financing or keep it and if he keeps it it gets split with the league. The best place to see what is classified as revenue is to look at the CBA. PSL's are exempted as revenue if they are used for stadiums but if not their classified as revenue.
 

bluecoconuts

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And there isn't precedence in swapping franchises?

I think it is a little difficult to make assumptions of what is and isn't easy when we are talking about hypotheticals.

Why is it assumed that a franchise flip scenario equates to Stan "giving up"...that makes zero sense to me. What if the scenario is simply a negotiation between the individual owners and the league to make the situation work out best as a whole?

I think it's been out there enough that Kroenke doesn't want to go rouge through enough outlets that that isn't an assumption. Doesn't mean he WON'T but it sure seems like he wants to work within the leagues boundaries rather than against them...so why should we dismiss that he wouldn't want to go that route? After all, Kroenke wanted to be part of the expansion team in St. Louis and when it didn't work out he jumped in on the Rams to Stl deal. That's pretty telling this wasn't about owning the Rams but rather owning an NFL team. 20 years later LA is attractive to him and I'd have to believe if he owned the hypothetical STL expansion team with the same set of circumstances and LA was sitting dormant that none of this would be any different.

What if Davis doesn't want to give up the Raiders...? Ok, what if he does? What if there is a deal in place that makes sense for Mr. Davis to make that move?

I wasn't talking about a franchise swap, I was talking about what Mostache proposed a few pages back:

From that simple set of propositions, everything else is relatively easy to envision to have the Raiders and Chargers in L.A. and the Rams in St. Louis. Davis is the long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs and he will be the loser in the end. Davis is going to be forced out. Initially, Inglewood will be denied. The Rams will be sold to local ownership, which will pick up the private investment portion of the Riverside stadium. After Kroenke sells the Rams, the NFL's other owners will facilitate the acquistion of the Raiders with a green light for Inglewood, the Carson partnership will crumble and the Chargers will be faced with three possibilities - 1) move ahead with Carson on their own, 2) accept a deal to join Kroenke's Raiders in Ingelwood or 3) stay in San Diego and accept the fact that they will be second fiddle in Southern California no matter what.

That essentially proposes that the NFL turns down Inglewood, which then Kroenke discouraged, sells the Rams to a local ownership group (which many others have proposed, which typically include Peacock being put in charge), and then the NFL forces out Davis, then allows Kroenke to buy the Raiders, and then move them and the Chargers to Inglewood, which is only then given the greenlight.

I'm saying I don't see anything to suggest that the above scenario has of coming to fruition.


In terms of a franchise swap, maybe in name only, but not in players/front office. Even still I think that the Rams brand in LA is better for Kroenke than the Raiders brand. If it was Kroenke's only option to get to LA then I can see that happening, but only after other options have been exhausted. I don't see it as a very likely scenario, more likely than Davis being forced out and Kroenke selling to a local group, but not nearly as likely as the NFL encouraging him and Spanos to get in a room and make Inglewood work for the both of them.

And even if Kroenke does end up selling the Rams because the NFL discourages LA, why would he sell to a local ownership group? Unless they make a significantly better offer, he's probably going to sell to random Billionaire Bob. Why reward the guys who messed up your plans?
 

iced

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http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-nfl-stadium-costs-20150506-story.html

Costs of fast-tracking NFL stadium plans in Carson, Inglewood revealed

AEG spent $27 million on a 10,000-page environmental impact report for its Farmers Field proposal in 2012, company officials estimate, and another $50 million on the now-scrapped project all told. While the Inglewood and Carson plans have many costs that aren't disclosed in campaign filings — from architects to lawyers to land deals — both saved similarly big bills because of a new state law that exempts projects proposed by ballot initiative from the environmental impact review process.

They did open up the checkbooks, though.


Chargers and Raiders overhaul design for potential L.A. stadium

The Inglewood campaign — Citizens for Revitalizing the City of Champions — was funded almost entirely by the Kroenke Group, except for a $50,000 donation from his partners at Hollywood Park Land Co.

The group spent most of its money on signature-gathering, printed and online media, and consultants. There were expenditures of more than $600,000 to Century City-based ballot specialists Winner and Mandabach, and more than $500,000 to Calabasas signature-gathering firm PCI Consultants. It also furnished an office in Inglewood.

Carson carried a lighter footprint, though the $534,000 sum probably will grow when April reports are filed. Carson2Gether, which is a 50-50 joint venture of the Chargers and Raiders, spent more than $120,000 on signature-gathering with Kimball Petition Management in Thousand Oaks, $79,000 with a Sacramento law firm that specializes in initiatives, and $55,000 on a "digital campaign" firm from Kennebunk, Maine.

It also spent $1,600 to hire the Los Angeles Fife and Drum Corps, which led a parade when 15,000 signatures were delivered to Carson City Hall in March. That effort could still face a referendum, which would force a public vote, though none has yet been filed.


Both campaigns cost peanuts compared to what the teams say they would like to spend on new stadiums, either of which would be the most expensive built in the U.S..

Kroenke's Inglewood plans are for a $1.86-billion stadium they would like to start to build in December, with or without a team. The Chargers and Raiders are proposing a $1.7-billion stadium in Carson, a price tag that could drop if just one team occupies it.

St. Louis' stadium authority has spent more than $800,000 developing a plan to keep the Rams, according to a recent report in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch. Unlike the Inglewood and Carson projects, St. Louis officials have said they are prepared to spend $400 million or more in public money on a stadium.

But that $800,000 spent so far on a plan to keep the Rams is less than half of what Kroenke has spent, just on a political campaign, to move St. Louis' team to Inglewood.

----------------------

Notice it doesn't cost much to paint the illusion of moving. Less than $1 million for an owner to gain enough leverage for multi-hundred million dollar better stadium (all 3 are doing it)
 
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RamFan503

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Notice it doesn't cost much to paint the illusion of moving. Less than $1 million for an owner to gain enough leverage for multi-hundred million dollar better stadium (all 3 are doing it)
Interesting take - eh? I agree in that while most are assuming Kroenke wants to move the Rams to LA, a few million dollars spent leveraging against potentially hundreds of millions sounds like a pretty good investment to me. And if you're not willing to push your bluff with real money, who's really going to buy it?
 

Young Ram

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-shrug- i must have bad luck.. 4 or 5x in 5 years, take off about a year for military movements
Yea that sucks I don't know what happened with your situation. As far as I know there is no gang 'promoting' Rams gear as their 'colors' in Ventura County. I know of 2 gangs who promote cowboy and raider gear and know of some establishments who wont even show their games.

That's why I think its a bad idea for the Raiders to come to LA.
 

Pancake

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Not sure why - that place always smelled like horse manure (drove by it every day to and from base).

That is because the Golf course and practice facility are both built on part of a landfill.
 
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