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ChrisW

Stating the obvious
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I don't think they care dollars and cents wise but owning an NFL team is as much about status as it is about money. I can almost guarantee you that these guys care. Maybe not for the reasons you and I may think should be the driving force but I do think they care.

I honestly think the LA market allure for these guys is more about status and international power than it is about cash in their pocket.


The thing about opposing teams in the dome is the location of the Lou. It's central to many of the locations of the visiting teams that invade it. Chicago, Green Bay, KC, Indy. Outside of those teams, who's really had a big contingent of fans inside the dome?
 

Username

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I dont have a horse in the race as far as if moving or staying is the better option being from FL but I do know that a new stadium is a must. We cant allow the franchise to be playing in a bottom tier stadium even if it is a dome.

I would like a new stadium as well, but why should St. Louis be the only team held to this standard? Who else has gotten a new stadium that fast? Who else has gotten a new stadium that fast with the worst product in the history of the league?

The only reason this is being discussed or even happening is because of the stupid fucking lease they agreed to, and the product on the field. No one would give a shit about the dome if they had seen a playoff game, or a winning season there in the past decade
 

RAMSinLA

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Before you say that out loud, you should ask yourself where the ticket sales would be in LA had the Rams gone through the decade of winless football STL has supported.

I agree Chris 100% the Rams did go through a decade of losing and they did lose fans/support so they left LA. But it's been 20 years of no team in LA. I think the fans in LA will settle for a fledgling team in a new stadium and be happy to have them.

This is overblown, the owner doesn't care who fills the stadium, just so long as tickets are sold.

No I disagree...
 

Stel

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As to the above article, how would this William White guy have standing? Where are the forum legal minds? @Stel , @DCH ?

Probably under Section 610.027 RSMo which gives standing to any aggrieved person, taxpayer or citizen. This presupposes that the person is seeking records or information covered by the Chapter 610 (usually referred to as the open records act).
 

Hacksaw

ROCK HARD STUD
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Mar 8, 2015
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it seems people keep forgetting that the last 5 seasons in LA, Georgia was busy dismantling the team for her end game and the Raiders were in town sharing the market. this is not the same situation nowadays. and I and many others are proof that the fans are still interested.
 

Hacksaw

ROCK HARD STUD
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and I guess it bears repeating that the fans in LA and in St Louis are not the reason this is happening
 
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RamBill

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With 3 NFL teams and 2 stadiums at play for L.A., here are 9 possible outcomes
By Sam Farmer

http://www.latimes.com/sports/nfl/la-sp-0408-nfl-stadium-scenarios-20150408-story.html

The Southwestern setting at the Arizona Biltmore was casual but the billionaires and multimillionaires weren't — most dressed in coats and ties for three days of closed-door sessions.

The 32 NFL owners were focused on business, but not just about revenue streams, and rules changes on the field. They got serious about an issue the league has largely treated as an afterthought for two decades: The lack of a professional football team in the Los Angeles market.

The owners heard a detailed, hourlong update on the Inglewood stadium proposal, and the competing vision for Carson. Owners who once deflected questions about L.A. with a shrug or smirk gave thoughtful, informed and optimistic answers. There was an air of inevitability that a solution was at hand, even though no one could say for sure what it was.

New England Patriots owner Robert Kraft, a member of the league's committee on Los Angeles opportunities, predicted two teams in L.A. by next year.

"We have some real good options," Kraft said. "And now we'll see what happens in the end game."

John Mara of the New York Giants, also on the committee, didn't commit to the idea of two teams, but indicated that a return is imminent.

Dallas Cowboys owner Jerry Jones, who is bullish on the Inglewood stadium, said, "A deal is in the crosshairs."

The NFL has never been closer to returning to L.A. In the past, venues were pitched by people who didn't own teams. This time, owners themselves are backing the stadium proposals.

"The developers can do all they want, but until the owner of a team wants to go out there, it's not going to happen," said the New York Jets' Woody Johnson at the owners' annual March meeting.

St. Louis Rams owner Stan Kroenke has released plans for a futuristic stadium on 298 acres at Hollywood Park in Inglewood and he has the required entitlements to start construction this year.

San Diego Chargers owner Dean Spanos and Oakland Raiders owner Mark Davis want to build on 168 acres just off the 405 Freeway in Carson, and they are weeks away from obtaining the same entitlements.

The Rams, Chargers and Raiders are unhappy because their current stadiums are outdated and — in the case of the Chargers — crumbling. All three teams are on year-to-year leases, making it easier to move.

"We have a good chance of getting back to Los Angeles soon, but I cannot speculate on exactly who, how or when," said NFL Executive Vice President Eric Grubman, appointed by Commissioner Roger Goodell to oversee the L.A. market. "There are too many variables that we don't control, so if you guess now, you have a high probability of being wrong."

The league has said no teams will relocate for this season, but has left open the possibility of one or two teams moving to L.A. for 2016. The two-month window to submit a relocation request is January through February, although the NFL has discussed accepting applications earlier to give teams more time to move.

The three markets in danger of losing their teams have made varying degrees of progress to keep them.

St. Louis has developed plans for a $985-million stadium on the banks of the Mississippi River, and is exploring how to acquire the land and $400 million in public money to subsidize the project.

San Diego has identified a site near the Chargers' current stadium and a task force appointed by the mayor is expected to present a financing plan by May — although team officials are not optimistic they will get public support to subsidize construction.

The Raiders are still waiting to hear from the developer representing the city of Oakland and Alameda County; indications are that a viable proposal is a long-shot.

With three teams and two stadium concepts in play in the L.A. metropolitan area, there are more than two dozen possible outcomes, although some are implausible, such as both stadiums being built or all three teams playing in one venue.

Here are nine that merit discussion.

Inglewood gets built

Rams alone

Why it can work: Kroenke, the NFL's second-richest owner, doesn't need a second team to help him and his partners finance a $1.8-billion stadium at the site of the old Hollywood Park racetrack. The development would include a small concert hall, residences, restaurants, and office and retail space, similar to LA Live around Staples Center.

The Rams would have the best chance to be successful in a one-team, one-stadium situation — they have a nostalgic connection to L.A., having played in Southern California from 1946 to 1994, and still have fans here.

Kroenke's site could host a Super Bowl, and be a potential home for such league assets as NFL Network, the Pro Bowl and a West Coast Hall of Fame.

Why it can't work: St. Louis has done the most of the three cities to keep its team. If the $400 million in taxpayer money remains in the stadium proposal there, the NFL will be reticent to allow the Rams to leave that cash behind.

Also, Spanos has made it clear that he thinks having a team in L.A. would hurt the Chargers in San Diego. If he can assemble eight other owners to vote with him — three-quarters of the 32 NFL owners must approve any relocation request — he could block Kroenke's move.

Outlook: Strong likelihood.

Rams, Chargers together

Why it can work: This is an outcome the NFL could live with if both the Rams and Chargers can't close deals with their cities. Putting a second team in Inglewood gives that stadium greater financial viability.

The Raiders have more options where they can move. The team has discussed relocation with San Antonio officials. They conceivably could share Levi's Stadium with the San Francisco 49ers. Or the Raiders could go to St. Louis if the Rams were to leave.

Why it can't work: This would require Kroenke and Spanos to reach agreement to share a stadium, something they have not shown a willingness to do.

Before Kroenke joined the Hollywood Park project, the developer initially approached the Chargers but they were not interested. The Chargers like the easy freeway access of the Carson site and believe fans care most about their ability to get to and from a game as quickly as possible.

Outlook: Somewhat likely.

Rams, Raiders together

Why it can work: Raiders owner Davis has an affection for the Hollywood Park site, where his father, Al, wanted to build a stadium in the early 1990s. Informal surveys show the Rams are the most popular of the three teams in the L.A. market, followed by the Raiders.

The Oakland team is not in good financial shape and would be more open to make a deal with the Rams.

The TV networks would have an NFC and AFC team in the market, so divisional realignment would not be necessary.

Why it can't work: Spanos would put up a vigorous fight to block any moves to L.A., other than his own. Two teams would saturate the L.A. market and the Chargers' threat to move to L.A. would give the team little or no leverage to get a stadium deal in San Diego.

Outlook: Less likely.

Kroenke as landlord

Why it can work: The NFL would get a stadium and location it likes, even if the Rams don't move. The Chargers and/or Raiders could move to the L.A. market without having to build a venue.

Why it can't work: If Kroenke were going to build the most expensive NFL stadium in history, he would want to reap the benefits of being in the market. There have been plenty of opportunities for the Chargers and Raiders to be tenants in other proposed L.A. stadiums, and they didn't jump at those.

Outlook: Unlikely.

Carson gets built

Chargers, Raiders together

Why it can work: This solves two of the league's biggest stadium problems, and avoids pulling a team out of Missouri to play in Inglewood, making the Rams the fourth NFL franchise in California.

Many owners are sympathetic toward Spanos and if he fails to get agreement soon on a new stadium, they would likely feel he has met the league requirement to exhaust all options.

The Raiders, too, face long odds of getting any significant traction on a new stadium in the Oakland area. They would have a 50/50 stake in a Carson project.

The NFL knows this Carson site and previously considered buying it. The stadium would be conveniently located for fans from both L.A. and Orange County, and would have ample room for tailgating.

Why it can't work: The site was once a toxic landfill, and although much cleanup work has been done, there remains more to do. The Chargers and Raiders also have different ideas about how a stadium should look. Both teams are in the AFC West and putting rivals in the same stadium would have its own challenges, such as divisional realignment, TV network issues, and two fan bases that don't like each other.

Outlook: Somewhat likely.

Chargers alone

Why it can work: Spanos has said the Chargers would shoulder the Carson project on their own if the Raiders strike a deal in Oakland or decide to pull out.

Why it can't work: Financing a stadium on 10 games a year, with no surrounding development, plus paying an NFL relocation fee, would be quite a challenge for Spanos. The Rams and Raiders are not going to bow out of the L.A. competition unless their own stadium problems are fixed.

Outlook: Somewhat likely.

Raiders alone

Why it can work: The Raiders would get their new home, and St. Louis and San Diego would keep their teams.

Why it can't work: The NFL believes that the Raiders, among the league's most polarizing teams, would struggle to generate the necessary revenue to pay for a stadium, especially when it comes to attracting the support of corporations and premium customers.

It's highly unlikely the league would hand over the L.A. market to Mark Davis — his late father, Al Davis, famously sued the NFL over who owned the rights to L.A. — and the younger Davis has shown no inclination to sell the franchise.

Outlook: Unlikely.

Wild cards

One team, new series

A year ago, when the league was investigating the possibility of financing its own stadium in the market, there were discussions about creating a "Los Angeles Game of the Month" franchise, in which a new L.A. stadium would not only be home to a relocated team but a monthly neutral-site game, akin to the London series.

Why it can work: The league could sell separate personal seat licenses for a Game of the Month series, and possibly a separate TV package. A personal seat license is a one-time payment, lasting a prescribed period such as 10 years, to secure the right to purchase tickets for a specific seat for future events. A game-of-the-month system would be a way to create two-team economics for a one-team stadium.

Why it can't work: If you call something the Game of the Month, it implies that it's going to be a compelling matchup. What cities that have elite teams would be willing to give up home games?

There's a reason why Jacksonville is often the home team for London games. The Jaguars' ticket revenue for a London game is significantly higher than for a typical regular-season home game, and that's not the case with top teams.

As it is, teams volunteer to give up home games for neutral-site games; they are not mandated to do so.

Outlook: Unlikely.

No moves in 2016

How is this possible? The league clearly is in no hurry to rush into an unfavorable deal in L.A. Much of what transpires during the next several months will hinge on what the home markets propose. If no team relocates in 2016, it could happen in 2017, however. After 20 years… it's still early in the game.

Outlook: Strong likelihood.
 

ChrisW

Stating the obvious
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ungrateful owner doesn't show any support to the St. Louis fans, and yet they still are buying more season tickets than last year.

How's that fan support?

Or should I say ------ owner? Is that ok? Or are you going to delete my whole post again? If you take offense to a word I use, either censor it or message me to edit the post.
 
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drasconis

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JA
So, some homeless dude that goes to the SLU law clinic for help decided that he found a loophole in the law and is going to exploit it?


Dear lord, my alma mater took this up....sigh.
Would be surprised if they can actually get anywhere on revealing plans early...and it would be tough to make a lawsuit until plans are revealed since some things would go up to vote some wouldn't. I would need to read the actual law (and it isn't cited) but based on how broadly they want it read then almost everything would require a vote, can't imaginea court opening it up like that. Maybe they did find a loophole, but darn I would think that would be unlikey. This is as much about PR as anything for the clinic (I believe). Just wish the school would actually work in the cities interest ...for once....
 

ChrisW

Stating the obvious
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Dear lord, my alma mater took this up....sigh. Would be surprised if they can actually get anywhere on revealing plans early...and it would be tough to make a lawsuit until plans are revealed since some things would go up to vote some wouldn't. Maybe they did finda loophole, but darn I would think that would be unliley. This is as much about PR as anything for the clinic (I believe). Just wish the school would actually work in the cities interest ...for once....

Yea, I don't know. It seems to be grasping at straws, as the whole indirect part of the law may seem ambiguous. But I would assume that the law is meant to cover additional tax money being introduced, not an hourly wage of someone at city hall.
 

12intheBox

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Wil Fay
Probably under Section 610.027 RSMo which gives standing to any aggrieved person, taxpayer or citizen. This presupposes that the person is seeking records or information covered by the Chapter 610 (usually referred to as the open records act).

Assuming this information falls under 610, the statute you point to seems to cover the request for the city to reveal plans to use public money to pay for a new stadium - but suing to demand a public vote? I still don't see how anything past a demand for info is anything other than a general grievance. Good info though.
 

drasconis

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JA
That latest article up above has me scratching my head.. why are these people coming out of the woodwork trying to kill Nixons finance approach? this is the 2nd time now. They obviously don't feel that football is that important or that the deferred costs of doing a stadium would hinder the growth and financial health of the region.
Or they're just being a bunch of freedom consious jerks possibly on stans payroll?

The crazies always show up for this stuff. I wish I knew what law they are basing their claim on...
 

Stel

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Assuming this information falls under 610, the statute you point to seems to cover the request for the city to reveal plans to use public money to pay for a new stadium - but suing to demand a public vote? I still don't see how anything past a demand for info is anything other than a general grievance. Good info though.

If the suit is to demand a public vote, I would think it would have to be based on the premise that the law requires a vote (possibly under the Hancock Amendment). The standing argument would have to be that any taxpayer or citizen has standing to make the government follow the law. At least that's my off the top of my head opinion.
 

RamFan503

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Stu
ungrateful owner doesn't show any support to the St. Louis fans, and yet they still are buying more season tickets than last year.

How's that fan support?

Or should I say ----- owner? Is that ok? Or are you going to delete my whole post again? If you take offense to a word I use, either censor it or message me to edit the post.
I've said it many times so I will edit this one more time for you rather than delete it. It has always been the rule of this entire forum - not just this thread that referring to current Rams players, coaches, front office, or ownership with derogatory terms is not allowed. I said before and I will repeat. I am not going to go in and edit posts anymore. I'm just going to delete them. And if they continue by ANY member, they will be blocked from the thread. It's pretty simple.

I like you man and I appreciate your input. But I'm not going to show favoritism on this.
 

ChrisW

Stating the obvious
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I've said it many times so I will edit this one more time for you rather than delete it. It has always been the rule of this entire forum - not just this thread that referring to current Rams players, coaches, front office, or ownership with derogatory terms is not allowed. I said before and I will repeat. I am not going to go in and edit posts anymore. I'm just going to delete them. And if they continue by ANY member, they will be blocked from the thread. It's pretty simple.

I like you man and I appreciate your input. But I'm not going to show favoritism on this.

No problem. I agree with not saying anything about the coaches, players, or front office. But to channel my inner JT, I don't support the owner. I support the team. So, I really don't care for him (choosing my words wisely here.)

From now on, I'll make sure to thinly veil my criticisms, so it's more playful than derogatory.
 

bluecoconuts

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I would like a new stadium as well, but why should St. Louis be the only team held to this standard? Who else has gotten a new stadium that fast? Who else has gotten a new stadium that fast with the worst product in the history of the league?

The only reason this is being discussed or even happening is because of the stupid freaking lease they agreed to, and the product on the field. No one would give a crap about the dome if they had seen a playoff game, or a winning season there in the past decade

Your second part explained the first part. They're the only ones to have a lease like this, and that lease is what makes it more necessary. People would still care about the dome, because it's a piece of crap, but if they didn't have a lease worded the way it was, it's more likely that the dome would have been fixed up more. The lease gave the team an out, and with that out it gave the team all the cards. Ultimately what attracted the team there in the first place is what's screwing the city over, and might be what drives the team away.
 

RamFan503

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Stu
Yea, I don't know. It seems to be grasping at straws, as the whole indirect part of the law may seem ambiguous. But I would assume that the law is meant to cover additional tax money being introduced, not an hourly wage of someone at city hall.
Grasping at straws may be right but I'm pretty sure that any wages or compensation paid to public officials would qualify. I do wonder though if the city will simply be able to open their records rather than actually be required to put it to a vote. It seems the state AG already kind of addressed that but I don't know how the law is worded and if it affects the city at all.
 

ChrisW

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Grasping at straws may be right but I'm pretty sure that any wages or compensation paid to public officials would qualify. I do wonder though if the city will simply be able to open their records rather than actually be required to put it to a vote. It seems the state AG already kind of addressed that but I don't know how the law is worded and if it affects the city at all.

It's all over my head for the most part. The AG letter that I posted last week just seemed to kind of talk around the issue even though court cases were cited. I still think that the law was meant to prevent new taxes on the people without them voting for it, not to decide what workload someone should be assigned at city hall.
 

RamFan503

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No problem. I agree with not saying anything about the coaches, players, or front office. But to channel my inner JT, I don't support the owner. I support the team. So, I really don't care for him (choosing my words wisely here.)

From now on, I'll make sure to thinly veil my criticisms, so it's more playful than derogatory.
I get yuh man. I just don't want to head down that road. I've patrolled this thread pretty diligently - even shutting it down for a time. I want everyone to be able to discuss this topic but we need to keep the forum rules in tact. We don't need to use these kinds of terms to get our points across - yuh dirtbag. :D

Cheers man.
 
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