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RamFan503

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Asked the old man how much they could lose if they lost anti trust status - "hundreds of millions?" "No.Billions....and it could even cause the nfl to disintegrate"
Not sure how the Rams moving would actually affect the league's anti trust status and I'm not really sure what motivation the Fed would have to revoke it either. If they did, wouldn't you think that, at minimum, the NBA would be next?

Also, in the 2010 ruling, wouldn't that make it more difficult for the NFL to block a team from moving in that it ruled they are all separate, privately owned businesses?

Did you read this article? You had a couple politicians grandstanding on domestic abuse and the NFL's mishandling of the issue in the Rice case. That was three months ago and nothing came of it from my understanding. Besides, what they were proposing was a five year renewable exemption for ALL leagues as long as they were well behaved. Good luck on that one.
 

iced

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Not sure how the Rams moving would actually affect the league's anti trust status and I'm not really sure what motivation the Fed would have to revoke it either. If they did, wouldn't you think that, at minimum, the NBA would be next?

Also, in the 2010 ruling, wouldn't that make it more difficult for the NFL to block a team from moving in that it ruled they are all separate, privately owned businesses?

This was all on the popular basis that the NFL would say no to a move, and that Kroenke would go rogue and do it anyway, then sue based on the anti-trust laws (this is common popular belief that this is alternative that he could win in court)

edit: which might be moot anyway; i remember reading somewhere that if kroenke were declined a move, he would follow it..when you think about the anti-trust status, you can see why

Did you read this article? You had a couple politicians grandstanding on domestic abuse and the NFL's mishandling of the issue in the Rice case. That was three months ago and nothing came of it from my understanding. Besides, what they were proposing was a five year renewable exemption for ALL leagues as long as they were well behaved. Good luck on that one.

You're missing the point - they're already looking at their anti-trust laws as it is (and according to my father, they're already running an extremely tight rope as it is to be in compliance as it is).

like earlier before when i quoted him "you don't want to wave a red flag at a bull (congress) "
 

RamFan503

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This was all on the popular basis that the NFL would say no to a move, and that Kroenke would go rogue and do it anyway, then sue based on the anti-trust laws (this is common popular belief that this is alternative that he could win in court)

edit: which might be moot anyway; i remember reading somewhere that if kroenke were declined a move, he would follow it..when you think about the anti-trust status, you can see why



You're missing the point - they're already looking at their anti-trust laws as it is (and according to my father, they're already running an extremely tight rope as it is to be in compliance as it is).

like earlier before when i quoted him "you don't want to wave a red flag at a bull (congress) "
While I'd agree somewhat, I really don't see that strong of a correlation. And I also don't see Congress actually stripping the NFL's exemption because I believe they would have to do it for every pro league. At minimum the NBA would have to be included. They will certainly rattle their sabers though and act like they care about a given issue. Congress wasn't even able to enact moderate legislation when the Browns moved.

Stripping the NFL's status would be much more involved and likely would go before the Supremes anyway.

I also have not seen where Stan has said he wouldn't fight it if told he couldn't move. I don't think he has said anything of the sort in either direction as he hasn't said he was going to move the team or even wanted to.

I'm just trying to look at this from several different angles. While I still think Stan is playing high stakes poker, I also don't think that if he moves the team back to LA it will trigger the kind of backlash you are talking about. I suppose it's possible but I'm just not seeing it.
 

iced

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While I'd agree somewhat, I really don't see that strong of a correlation. And I also don't see Congress actually stripping the NFL's exemption because I believe they would have to do it for every pro league. At minimum the NBA would have to be included. T

No, they wouldn't. The NFL does not have a broad anti-trust law, just certain exemptions

There is a big difference

You also have to understand how much the NFL is already tip-toeing the anti-trust Law as it is....

If Kroenke were to sue over that (so he could move the team if they told him no, assuming he wouldn't abide by their decision) he would screwing himself in the long run
 
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bluecoconuts

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Why Congress will never take back the NFL’s tax break
By Fred Barbash

Perhaps the most famous tax break in America is the one bestowed by Congress on the NFL. It’s famous for its seeming illogic — the NFL, hugely profitable, being called a “nonprofit.”

And it’s famous, along with the antitrust exemption for pro football, for the number of times members of Congress have threatened subtly or otherwise to take it away.

The occasions range from the anger of then-Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.)in 2007 over a blackout of a New England Patriots game to resentment about the name of the Washington, D.C., football team to concern about concussions to anger over what Republican Sen. Tom Coburn (Okla.) and Maine’s independent Sen. Angus King called “tax earmarks.”

“For every dollar that goes out in a case like this, that’s a dollar my constituents have to pay in income taxes,” King said. “When I talk to people about the NFL being a nonprofit tax-exempt organization, they’re just astounded.” A tax reform package sponsored by House Ways and Means Committee Chairman Dave Camp of Michigan is sitting in committee now. See Section 5301, “Repeal of tax-exempt status for professional sports leagues.”

Now, in the wake of the domestic abuse controversies in the NFL, the rumbling has started anew. Congress must now investigate the league’s handling of the domestic abuse charges, Democratic Rep. Jackie Speier of California said in a press release, as well as its “tolerance of performance enhancing drugs, the impact of traumatic brain injury on players later in life, and the tax-exempt status the NFL enjoys thanks to a loophole Congress created in the ’60s.”

But don’t count on anything happening — ever — to the exemptions enjoyed by pro sports. The NFL remains a heavy hitter in Washington. Its officials and political action committee donated more than $1.4 million to members of Congress during the past two election cycles, according to data compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics. It spends millions as well on as many as 26 lobbyists from top-tier Washington firms.

Plus, if Congress were to revoke the NFL’s nonprofit, tax-exempt status, it might have to so the same for the National Hockey League and the Professional Golfers Association, men’s and women’s. Major League Baseball and the National Basketball Association gave up their status in part because it wasn’t saving them much money, if any at all, and it meant revealing potentially embarrassing executive salary information.

Indeed, we wouldn’t know how much NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell made but for IRS disclosure requirements for nonprofits. And it’s the staggering sum — $74 million over a two-year period, according to Businessweek — that’s really fueled the controversy. Juxtaposed with the term “nonprofit,” the league looks awfully profitable for Goodell and other league executives. According to the New York Times, the NFL’s general counsel was paid $7.9 million in 2012, and its executive director $26.1 million.

“If the NFL were a real public company … the pay would be exorbitant,”said Businessweek. “According to data firm Equilar, a $37 million annual salary would put him right on the edge of the top-10 highest paid chief executive officers in the U.S.” Goodell’s compensation has been called “absurd” and a “stunner.”

In fact, by some calculations, the league — as opposed to the teams, which are not tax-exempt — would pay no taxes because it’s constantly in the red. The league itself is a bit of a money loser, according to Forbes and a CNBC calculation based on the latest available filings from 2012. Moves to take away the NFL’s tax exemption are “silly,” Peter Reilly wrote in Forbes. “Football in America makes about $10 billion annually,” said CNBC, and the NFL “actually wound up in the red for $304,462,262 that year.” Goodell, it noted, made more than $44 million.

But revoking the tax-exemption isn’t in the cards anyway. The NFL doesn’t lose games on Capitol Hill. Consider how it got its special status in the first place in the mid-1960s.

According to a book by Michael MacCambridge, as recounted in this 2010 New York Times article, it happened when Pete Rozelle, the NFL commissioner in the 1960s, wanted to merge the NFL and the old AFL and needed an act of Congress to get around antitrust laws.

As it happened, New Orleans was trying to get a football franchise about the same time. Two of the most powerful men in Congress, House Majority Whip Hale Boggs (D) and Senate Majority Whip Russell Long (D), were Louisianans who wanted something from Rozelle: a team. Long got the exemptions inserted into a foreign aid bill. Rozelle was grateful when he ran into Boggs in the Capitol one day.

As MacCambridge recounts, Rozelle said, “Congressman Boggs, I don’t know how I can ever thank you enough for this. This is a terrific thing you’ve done.”

Said Boggs: “What do you mean you don’t know how to thank me? New Orleans gets an immediate franchise in the NFL.”

Rozelle replied equivocally: “I’m going to do everything I can to make that happen,” which prompted Boggs to suggest they could always call off the vote. “Rozelle,” MacCambridge wrote, “took two giant strides after Boggs, turned him gently around and said, ‘It’s a deal, Congressman. You’ll get your franchise.’”

Boggs finished the conversation. “‘If this doesn’t work out you will regret this for the rest of your f—ing life.’”

It worked out.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...will-never-take-back-the-nfls-huge-tax-break/



Interesting article. To be honest I'm not even sure what the anti-trust stuff does for the NFL.
 

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Here's a Neil deMause podcast on the Obama proposal: http://www.kuci.org/podcastfiles/1144/Neil deMause 03 17 2015.mp3

tl;dl
The answer to the KSDK headline is "no".

Slightly OT: "Betteridge's law of headlines is an adage that states: 'Any headline that ends in a question mark can be answered by the word no.'" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge's_law_of_headlines

Also the proposal only applies to bonds issued after December 31, 2015. If Nixon intends to extend already issued bonds, the proposal, by its terms, is n/a.
 
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drasconis

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from the article:
"An obscure item in the president's new budget would put an end to the long-standing practice of states and cities using tax-exempt bonds to finance professional sports arenas, a practice that costs the U.S. Treasury $146 million, according to a 2012 Bloomberg analysis."

once again that doesn't make it illegal to do or actual prevent cities/states from financing new stadiums/renovations...what it does do though is make it more difficult. It means that a person would have to pay federal taxes on the bonds interest instead of it being federally tax free...so it does take away a common tool used, but there is no ban on cities/states from financing such projects (and I doubt such a ban would be legal anyway).
 

Rmfnlt

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no I would say that saying they have started on a stadium is overplaying what is actually going on, they have plans for a possible stadium, they cant say for sure that its going to be built yet, Stan can stand up today and say "changed my mind, not building that stadium" and guess what, that stadium wont be built. im not saying that will happen, but it could, so to say that a stadium there is a fact is wrong.
And how can anyone be sure the dirt they are moving is specifically for the satdium.

The entire site is huge... the dirt being moved could be for any of the other parts of the development.
 

Rmfnlt

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Eh I don't think so - according to him That would be the last thing any of the owners want. They'd all be losing some serious money.

conversely when they were talking about "NFL Could Sweeten the pot for Kroenke to keep The Rams in St.Louis" rumors that we've heard before - I asked my old man about that as well... one possibility he mentioned would be increasing his share of the market revenue.

But as far as anti-trust status goes - I'd wager that that's the last thing any and all owners want, including Kroenke himself. He'd win the battle, but could very easily lose the war.
If what you wrote earlier is correct, and if Kroenke decides to sue, he'll have 31 very rich men pizzed at him.

Kill the goose that lays the golden eggs.

Ain't gonna happen.

He's poerful, but not that powerful!
 

bluecoconuts

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And how can anyone be sure the dirt they are moving is specifically for the satdium.

The entire site is huge... the dirt being moved could be for any of the other parts of the development.

You can drive by and see it. ;)

With the water, power, infrastructure stuff they're doing, its all over. They aren't really building things yet, so there's time to change things, but they are prepping the land to start building, which is an important step everyone needs to go through.
 

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And how can anyone be sure the dirt they are moving is specifically for the satdium.

The entire site is huge... the dirt being moved could be for any of the other parts of the development.
They're in the process of getting permits to start building.
 

Rmfnlt

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You can drive by and see it. ;)

With the water, power, infrastructure stuff they're doing, its all over. They aren't really building things yet, so there's time to change things, but they are prepping the land to start building, which is an important step everyone needs to go through.
So, by driving by (I'm assuming you have), you can clearly determine that the earth moving is specifically tied to the stadium itself?
 

BuiltRamTough

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Here's a timeline on the Raiders stadium situation and what is going to happen in the next few months.

Coliseum City's 23-point to-do list for a new Raiders stadium
If Oakland moves closer to breaking ground for the Coliseum City development — with a new stadium for the iconic Oakland Raiders as its centerpiece — New City Development LLC is going to have to deliver on a 23-point to-do list.

Floyd Kephart, New City's point man, said the exclusive negotiating agreement to be voted on by Oakland and Alameda County officials over the next few days is a "real agreement" with "real stuff" to do.

Here's a quick look at what New City must deliver to city and county officials by June 21 and Aug. 21, when the exclusive negotiating agreement expires, according to the ENA:

By June 21 …

• An initial financing plan for a new stadium for the Raiders, including ancillary development and land and infrastructure to support a potential new stadium for the Oakland Athletics. It will include projected sources and types of funding as well as the estimated equity stake from New City, its partners and affiliates.

• Terms and conditions required to win a commitment from the Raiders, A's or the Golden State Warriors to Coliseum City. This will include an update on the status of negotiations between New City and each team.

• Initial site plans for new Raiders and/or A's stadiums.

• Financial and market feasibility analyses for various elements of the development other than sports facilities.

• A development schedule for the sports facilities and ancillary development, including the timing of entitlements for all phases of the project.

• An estimate of infrastructure cost and a funding plan for the infrastructure, including a list of potential regional, state and federal grant sources.

• Plans for tax financing districts for infrastructure.

• A preliminary plan for subdividing parcels, if needed.

• Proposals for addressing the existing Coliseum debt.

• Proposed timetables for disposing of land for various parts of the project.

• An outline contracting plan.

• An outline community benefits plan for the project.

By Aug. 21 …

• A detailed description of the plan for project development.

• Refined terms and conditions required to win a commitment from the Raiders and/or A's and a project schedule for obtaining a commitment.

• A refined financing plan for Raiders and/or A's stadiums, including identification of all sources of financing.

• A refined description of the financing structure for ancillary development and the proposed developers for each element of those pieces of the development.

• A clearer schedule for development of the stadiums and the ancillary development, including the timing of entitlements.

• A better estimate of infrastructure cost and a funding plan for the infrastructure.

• A refined proposal for establishing tax financing districts for financing infrastructure.

• A clearer plan for subdividing parcels.

• A refined proposal addressing existing Coliseum debt.

• Proposed terms for the lease disposition and development agreement and financing for various elements of the project.

• A refined contracting plan and community benefits plan.
 

bluecoconuts

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So, by driving by (I'm assuming you have), you can clearly determine that the earth moving is specifically tied to the stadium itself?

I drove by, but not to check out the site, so I didn't go to look around or anything. However knowing what part is his land is, you can tell they're doing things there. They're doing stuff to the entire area really, but that doesn't mean it's for the stadium itself, it just means the land they're going to sit it on is being prepped for the water, power, etc. Again though, they need to do that for whatever they build there, so it doesn't mean much until they start laying concrete and everything for the stadium itself. What they're doing now can be used for a stadium, or retail, or apartments, or whatever they put there. What it does though, is shorten the time between permits for the stadium (or whatever they need) and actually building, because the prep work will be done already.
 

iced

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Interesting article. To be honest I'm not even sure what the anti-trust stuff does for the NFL.

It allows the teams to negotiate and set one standard for Contracts... think TV contracts, merchandising, etc.

If they didn't have it, each team would negotiate on their own independently and set their own structures, prices, etc. The issue is that you have 32 businesses that would be "competitive" - the example i was just given was - imagine me, you, and someone else had a team where we'd negotiate with FOX, CBS, etc. to air our teams. Without the anti-trust, each one of us could negotiate our own terms with the provider, effectively competing against each other. With it, they can set a structure that evenly works for all 32 teams. There's no competition, and when there's no competition you can charge what you want.

lol liked this quote from him: "anti trust law is really economic competition law"
 

BuiltRamTough

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I drove by, but not to check out the site, so I didn't go to look around or anything. However knowing what part is his land is, you can tell they're doing things there. They're doing stuff to the entire area really, but that doesn't mean it's for the stadium itself, it just means the land they're going to sit it on is being prepped for the water, power, etc. Again though, they need to do that for whatever they build there, so it doesn't mean much until they start laying concrete and everything for the stadium itself. What they're doing now can be used for a stadium, or retail, or apartments, or whatever they put there. What it does though, is shorten the time between permits for the stadium (or whatever they need) and actually building, because the prep work will be done already.
There is a reason why the Union is gathering petitions to try to make it a public vote in June and trying to get more work during and after construction. They hear and know that ingelwood is doing prep work on the site and applying for permits. The Union is in that business. They know this is the real deal and it's going to get built. Whether the Rams play in the stadium or not will find out. Stan has had a leg up on all this since he bought the land that is why this is happening so fast. We're talking about an 300acre project. By the time Carson starts doing prep work Inglewood would have broken ground and they would be way ahead of Carson.
 

RamFan503

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No, they wouldn't. The NFL does not have a broad anti-trust law, just certain exemptions

There is a big difference

You also have to understand how much the NFL is already tip-toeing the anti-trust Law as it is....

If Kroenke were to sue over that (so he could move the team if they told him no, assuming he wouldn't abide by their decision) he would screwing himself in the long run
First off - I was referring to the exemption that allows for a salary cap. If - as you said - that would be in jeopardy, how would they allow the NBA to keep theirs? I don't think they can pick and choose like that and most rumblings I have heard mention all pro sports leagues - not just the NFL.

The NFL is not tip toeing the anti-trust laws, they have been granted an exemption from some of them. The biggest exemption being - as far as I understand - the one that allows for the salary cap. Without it, the small market teams would have difficulty competing. It that respect, losing that exemption could actually benefit Stan in a move to LA. He could be the George Steinbrenner of the West.

The other one they could potentially lose is the blackout rule. Yeah - that would suck for the fans - eh?

Honestly, it seems to me that the NFL itself has far more to fear from a lawsuit than Stan. If Congress were to start looking into removing the exemptions, I would guess that they would also be raising hell over the idea that a non-profit could lose $300 million+ while their CEO brings in $44 million.

None of us know if Stan would sue if told no. Hell, we don't even know for sure that he has any designs on moving the team. Almost all of this is from people outside the organization saying what they think he'll do. The concept that he wouldn't challenge the NFL if they said no was put forth by people projecting based on their "experience" in dealing with Stan. My guess is that these people have actually had very little experience with Stan and have never discussed anything remotely similar to this situation.

I still don't get where the 2010 decision strengthens the position of the NFL. If the ruling stated that each team is a separate business, how does the NFL then stand on the ground that it can dictate a team's business decisions outside of agreements it, in of itself makes? How is Jerruh selling his own merchandise for example? Why did the NFL back away from and then grant an extension to Stan's cross ownership violation? Because they made the exemption for Huezenga (sp?) and Allen (the NFL changed the rules to limit it to only current NFL markets so that Allen could buy the Seahawks)?

The NFL just has a history of backing away from its bylaws in order to avoid litigation. It also has a history of doing what is best for the pockets of the owners. I really don't see them standing firm if Stan really wants to move the team.

St Louis has the ball firmly in its court IMO. They can step up and keep the Rams if they continue to make very rapid progress. But in all honesty, I worry that they just pissed Stan off with the low ball offer in arbitration and then not really stepping up after they lost.
 

bluecoconuts

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It allows the teams to negotiate and set one standard for Contracts... think TV contracts, merchandising, etc.

If they didn't have it, each team would negotiate on their own independently and set their own structures, prices, etc. The issue is that you have 32 businesses that would be "competitive" - the example i was just given was - imagine me, you, and someone else had a team where we'd negotiate with FOX, CBS, etc. to air our teams. Without the anti-trust, each one of us could negotiate our own terms with the provider, effectively competing against each other. With it, they can set a structure that evenly works for all 32 teams. There's no competition, and when there's no competition you can charge what you want.

lol liked this quote from him: "anti trust law is really economic competition law"

So then wouldn't rich owners be an an advantage? They can buy the better players, and thus get the better contracts? The Seahawks, Rams having the two richest owners, (Miami, Tampa, Jacksonville, and Dallas the next guys behind them) would be able to spend spend spend, and get top players. Plus being in LA would help Stan even more so. You'd think the other owners would be more worried about that than the rich guys, which would work in his favor.

I don't think he really wants to take away all that antitrust stuff or anything, I'm just trying to figure out how it all works.
 

bluecoconuts

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The concept that he wouldn't challenge the NFL if they said no was put forth by people projecting based on their "experience" in dealing with Stan

I always thought that was more of Stan would take it to a vote so the NFL has a chance to give their blessing on a move (thus saving face), rather than not challenging them if they deny him. I may have read it wrong/missed a different article though.
 
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