Mariota's value

[moklerman]

Wisenhunt didn't lead Arizona to that Superbowl. Kurt Warner did. Ken Wisenhunt just happened to be the coach there at the time.

It sure looks like it in retrospect. At the time, I gave Whisenhunt and Haley a lot of credit for forcing Warner to face some facts and raise the level of his game. But, I don't think Warner ever lost anything but his confidence and rhythm. Once he donned the gloves and could hold onto the ball again, it all came back and I'm sure much of the success of that offense was Warner implementing plays and schemes that he was comfortable running. I know that he pushed Fitzgerald to be more precise with his route running and to just be better even as talented as he was.

And I'd have to assume the stuff that Warner was comfortable with was all stuff he learned from Martz. The Cardinals weren't exactly the GSOT but I think that had a lot more to do with personnel. Fitz, Boldin and Edge were not blessed with speed. But the philosophy was the same when Warner was allowed to actually play. Whisenhunt would often squat on leads and get conservative.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

The only guy I can think of that fits that description just said he was going back for another year. Cody Kessler.

Your description of Winston just emphasizes how bleak the QB crop is this year IMO. Just because a guy can make a few NFL throws and go through progressions he's being talked about as the best available. That's a far cry from some of the QB's of the past who've really lit it up in college and were obvious choices to take a chance on. Winston, IMO, just isn't anything special. Maybe he'll be a regular starter at the next level but all this talk of moving up or hoping this or whatever is just over-selling what the guy has shown.

Yes in the past when college teams ran Pro style offense with Pro style QBs a guy like Winston would have been more commonplace. Now there are so few teams that run Pro offenses that we hail anyone that shows potential. I hate where college QBing has gone, and even Moreso where college coaching has gone. They are all so scheme reliant that it even limits NFL teams choices in promoting coaches from the college ranks. So the NFL is forced to recycle the same old coaches year after year.

 

[jrry32]

The only guy I can think of that fits that description just said he was going back for another year. Cody Kessler.

Your description of Winston just emphasizes how bleak the QB crop is this year IMO. Just because a guy can make a few NFL throws and go through progressions he's being talked about as the best available. That's a far cry from some of the QB's of the past who've really lit it up in college and were obvious choices to take a chance on. Winston, IMO, just isn't anything special. Maybe he'll be a regular starter at the next level but all this talk of moving up or hoping this or whatever is just over-selling what the guy has shown.

Pure nostalgia. There isn't going to be an Andrew Luck every year. They are rare. The slam dunk #1 overall QBs just don't come around that often. So who are these guys you're referring to that were the "obvious" choices?

Winston IS something special. He shows the advanced traits as a 20 year old that many people are wishing the 22 and 23 year old QB prospects have. And there's no knocking his physical tools.

It really all comes down to interceptions. And that all depends on your outlook. I can accept interceptions if the guy is good enough to make up for them. Nothing wrong with a gunslinger.

And no, I don't think his description does emphasize how bleak it is. Makes NFL caliber throws, goes through progressions, stands in the pocket but is mobile, emotional leader, etc. That sounds like a very positive description of a QB prospect.

Winston is young but is advanced mentally as a passer, possesses ideal physical tools, and is very accurate while still possessing plenty of room for development and growth. If anything, the kid is underrated because of his off the field troubles.

 

[jrry32]

Yes in the past when college teams ran Pro style offense with Pro style QBs a guy like Winston would have been more commonplace. Now there are so few teams that run Pro offenses that we hail anyone that shows potential.

I certainly wouldn't go that far at all. Winston wouldn't be commonplace...but guys like Mariota and Petty certainly would have benefited from it.

Hundley runs a pro style offense and I'm certainly not hailing him. Same thing with Sean Mannion.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I certainly wouldn't go that far at all. Winston wouldn't be commonplace...but guys like Mariota and Petty certainly would have benefited from it.

Hundley runs a pro style offense and I'm certainly not hailing him. Same thing with Sean Mannion.

Well maybe I overstated a bit. What I meant was the dearth of Pro style trained college QBs due to so many college coaches and coordinators turning to the 'Spread', generates even more fervor for the few Pro Style QBs that come out each year.

You know that I think highly of Winston.

 

[moklerman]

Pure nostalgia. There isn't going to be an Andrew Luck every year. They are rare. The slam dunk #1 overall QBs just don't come around that often. So who are these guys you're referring to that were the "obvious" choices?

Winston IS something special. He shows the advanced traits as a 20 year old that many people are wishing the 22 and 23 year old QB prospects have. And there's no knocking his physical tools.

It really all comes down to interceptions. And that all depends on your outlook. I can accept interceptions if the guy is good enough to make up for them. Nothing wrong with a gunslinger.

And no, I don't think his description does emphasize how bleak it is. Makes NFL caliber throws, goes through progressions, stands in the pocket but is mobile, emotional leader, etc. That sounds like a very positive description of a QB prospect.

Winston is young but is advanced mentally as a passer, possesses ideal physical tools, and is very accurate while still possessing plenty of room for development and growth. If anything, the kid is underrated because of his off the field troubles.

Robert Griffin III, Cam Newton, Sam Bradford, Vince Young, Alex Smith, David Carr, Michael Vick...these are all examples of guys who were so dazzling in college that they were obvious choices even though there were big question marks about them transitioning to the NFL. Even though their success might have been directly attributable to scheme, level of competition, etc., it was so impressive at the college level that it was relatively obvious to give them the chance to do it at the next level.

Mariota's kind of in that conversation right now but Winston doesn't really fit the bill at this moment IMO. He may turn out to be something but after he regressed so much this year and what he did against the stouter opponents, I'm not excited about his stock at all.

 

[Boffo97]

I prefer Winston because you can see the NFL quality throws,

Unfortunately, there's not an NFL quality brain, and THAT is going to make all the difference.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

Unfortunately, there's not an NFL quality brain, and THAT is going to make all the difference.

You don't think? I see him going through progressions.

Now I do also see him yelling at his coaches. I read about his problems off the field and question his judgement, and like everyone else that is the main concern for me. But he can read defenses and understands his offense. I think he can get it done, if he can stay clean.

However there is always the question of why. Why did he decide to do the things he did? Is it stupidity? Feeling of untouchability? Is it his upbringing? Or just immaturity? I don't know that stuff and let that up to the coaches to figure out.

Bottom line is he is a good college QB in a pro style offense and he shows signs of being able to play in the NFL when very few others can say that. Again I will let Fisher and Snead figure out the rest.

 

[Boffo97]

You don't think? I see him going through progressions.

Now I do also see him yelling at his coaches. I read about his problems off the field and question his judgement, and like everyone else that is the main concern for me. But he can read defenses and understands his offense. I think he can get it done, if he can stay clean.

However there is always the question of why. Why did he decide to do the things he did? Is it stupidity? Feeling of untouchability? Is it his upbringing? Or just immaturity? I don't know that stuff and let that up to the coaches to figure out.

Bottom line is he is a good college QB in a pro style offense and he shows signs of being able to play in the NFL when very few others can say that. Again I will let Fisher and Snead figure out the rest.

I'm not worried about progressions. I'm worried about the sheer number of character red flags showing that this kid is both immature and dumb. Yelling at the coach and nearly being benched was another one. Talent alone can help you excel at the college level, but we've seen so many talented people bust out at this level because they didn't have it right above the neck. And Fisher is not a magic cure for this, see Pacman Jones.

I worry that the odds are much better of him being a huge bust for someone (hopefully not us) than of him succeeding.

I do NOT want this kid in horns. Sure, I've said that already, but those who do want him have said it already and we'll keep saying it until the draft and probably beyond.

 

[WestCoastRam]

Yes in the past when college teams ran Pro style offense with Pro style QBs a guy like Winston would have been more commonplace. Now there are so few teams that run Pro offenses that we hail anyone that shows potential. I hate where college QBing has gone, and even Moreso where college coaching has gone. They are all so scheme reliant that it even limits NFL teams choices in promoting coaches from the college ranks. So the NFL is forced to recycle the same old coaches year after year.

That's why we're not gonna see any QB parity in this league until we get another developmental league. QB's need time to learn the pro game and there just isn't any now unless you're doing it on the job as the starting QB.

 

[WestCoastRam]

Interesting Mariota tidbit... Bucs asked Titan's to interview Mularkey for OC and Titans refused.

Mularkey was the OC for Matt Ryan his first year and was OC when Kordell Stewart was playing "slash" for the Steelers. I think he would have been an interesting fit with Mariota. He's certainly creative enough to mold an offense around him. Shame, could have been a savvy move by Lovie.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

I'm not worried about progressions. I'm worried about the sheer number of character red flags showing that this kid is both immature and dumb. Yelling at the coach and nearly being benched was another one. Talent alone can help you excel at the college level, but we've seen so many talented people bust out at this level because they didn't have it right above the neck. And Fisher is not a magic cure for this, see Pacman Jones.

I worry that the odds are much better of him being a huge bust for someone (hopefully not us) than of him succeeding.

I do NOT want this kid in horns. Sure, I've said that already, but those who do want him have said it already and we'll keep saying it until the draft and probably beyond.

For the record I am usually against the drafting guys with the character red flags, no matter how talented they are. Mainly I think this way because at the NFL level every position takes a certain amount of intelligence and dedication to play it effectively. Many times the bad character players are doing dumb things to get red flags because they are..........well........too dumb to realize that it could be costing them millions of dollars.

However at the QB position I have to open the door a little if the talent is there because it is the one position that any QB needy team knows that they have to take a risk on in the draft. Teams with good QBs are always playoff contenders, even when their team is not that good (Like the Colts).

Winston is a leader on the field even if he isn't off of it.

 

[blue4]

I caught the game. It was the second whole game I've seen for both QBs and I'm still underwhelmed by both. Mariota isn't doing anything resembling what he'd be required to do here and the only two things Winston has convinced me of is that he doesn't use good judgment and that he can turn the ball over as well as any NFL QB. The only explanation I can figure for the fascination with these two is that there simply isn't anyone else to talk about. Perhaps Mariota is a fast learner. Perhaps Winston can be taught to be an adult and to take care of the football. I'd see Fisher taking a shot at Mariota before Winston simply because of the TOs this year. Trading 2 1sts for either of these two would be disappointing. Trading 3 would probably cause me to see if my garage band group of buddies wanted to get together every Sunday and play some music/drink beer.

 

[Merlin]

That's why we're not gonna see any QB parity in this league until we get another developmental league. QB's need time to learn the pro game and there just isn't any now unless you're doing it on the job as the starting QB.

Teams that succeed now are going to need to accurately project QBs in spite of running systems that pad their stats. You identify a QB that has what you are looking for, and accept that they're probably going to need a full year which includes 2 camps in order to know the offense to the level required. Some may need more time, but I think one year is sufficient for the guys you want to take high.

Bottom line is the Rams need to choose a QB in this draft and add him to the depth chart, and hope their scouting and projecting is correct. If they continuously knock every mistake any of these guys make they're gonna go year to year with garbage rentals and castoffs from other teams that have little upside in this league. Mariota and Winston both have risk, but I guarantee you that in this draft there is one, maybe two future starters and franchise signal callers. Rams just gotta figure out which guy it is and try to get him at good value where they draft him.

And that's the problem here, IMO. Teams are gonna reach for these guys, it is supply and demand. We can sit back right now and say this QB or that QB is a third round pick, or needs to go late first or whatever, but there aren't enough of them. The Rams' need is profound. This brings me back around to the fact that if the Rams reach for a QB in this draft I'm not gonna lose my mind like I will if they ignore the position. The key is trying to limit how much of a reach and more importantly to hit on the pick with the right guy.

If I am Snead I get a QB in the first few rounds period (this year Petty is my target as I have already said). Then I draft one in that range in every effin draft until I find my QB of the future. It's either that or move up for one of the top two in this draft and hope you hit. The position is that important, and the Rams are that close with the talent on this roster, they need to get a young QB in here so he can "arrive" in the same window as this talent.

 

[jrry32]

I'm not worried about progressions. I'm worried about the sheer number of character red flags showing that this kid is both immature and dumb. Yelling at the coach and nearly being benched was another one. Talent alone can help you excel at the college level, but we've seen so many talented people bust out at this level because they didn't have it right above the neck. And Fisher is not a magic cure for this, see Pacman Jones.

I worry that the odds are much better of him being a huge bust for someone (hopefully not us) than of him succeeding.

I do NOT want this kid in horns. Sure, I've said that already, but those who do want him have said it already and we'll keep saying it until the draft and probably beyond.

Just more proof that people will see what they want to see.

Robert Griffin III, Cam Newton, Sam Bradford, Vince Young, Alex Smith, David Carr, Michael Vick...these are all examples of guys who were so dazzling in college that they were obvious choices even though there were big question marks about them transitioning to the NFL. Even though their success might have been directly attributable to scheme, level of competition, etc., it was so impressive at the college level that it was relatively obvious to give them the chance to do it at the next level.

Mariota's kind of in that conversation right now but Winston doesn't really fit the bill at this moment IMO. He may turn out to be something but after he regressed so much this year and what he did against the stouter opponents, I'm not excited about his stock at all.

RGIII, Vince Young, Cam Newton, and Alex Smith did not run pro style offenses. Mike Vick stats in college were terrible. Sam Bradford was not the "obvious" choice. Many claimed that Jimmy Clausen and Suh or McCoy should be drafted before him. Not to mention he had a terrible Junior year. Cam Newton was not the "obvious" choice. Many claimed he shouldn't go #1 because of his character issues, his offense, and his development needed. Alex Smith was hardly the clear cut #1. Many argued Aaron Rodgers should be drafted ahead of him.

David Carr is too far back for me to remember.

None of these guys were the obvious choices you're making them out to be. At least, they were no more obvious than Winston.

 

[moklerman]

RGIII, Vince Young, Cam Newton, and Alex Smith did not run pro style offenses. Mike Vick stats in college were terrible. Sam Bradford was not the "obvious" choice. Many claimed that Jimmy Clausen and Suh or McCoy should be drafted before him. Not to mention he had a terrible Junior year. Cam Newton was not the "obvious" choice. Many claimed he shouldn't go #1 because of his character issues, his offense, and his development needed. Alex Smith was hardly the clear cut #1. Many argued Aaron Rodgers should be drafted ahead of him.

David Carr is too far back for me to remember.

None of these guys were the obvious choices you're making them out to be. At least, they were no more obvious than Winston.

It's not about the style of offense, it's that they were phenomenal in college. They were prolific enough in school that they were obvious choices to take a chance on. Sure, they wouldn't replicate what they did in school at the the next level but there numbers or what they did was gaudy enough that someone "had' to draft them just in case.

 

[The Rammer]

Winston is a no go for me. I see him as a Jamarcus Russel Type of player who won't get anywhere in the NFL because of his ego. If rather trade up for Mariota if we were going to trade up. It doesn't make sense giving all those picks like we received in the RG3 trade. Will hinder us for years to come.

I don't know about you guys but Mariota reminds me of a bigger version of Russel Wilson with how he plays and moves. I can see if he drops to like 4-6 we'd entertain to see what it'd take to trade up.

 

[jrry32]

It's not about the style of offense, it's that they were phenomenal in college. They were prolific enough in school that they were obvious choices to take a chance on. Sure, they wouldn't replicate what they did in school at the the next level but there numbers or what they did was gaudy enough that someone "had' to draft them just in case.

And someone is going to "have" to draft Winston early on. Winston has been plenty prolific too. As I said, this is nostalgia. All those guys had major concerns surrounding them coming out. All of them had detractors saying they shouldn't be drafted highly.

Winston is a no go for me. I see him as a Jamarcus Russel Type of player who won't get anywhere in the NFL because of his ego. If rather trade up for Mariota if we were going to trade up. It doesn't make sense giving all those picks like we received in the RG3 trade. Will hinder us for years to come.

I don't know about you guys but Mariota reminds me of a bigger version of Russel Wilson with how he plays and moves. I can see if he drops to like 4-6 we'd entertain to see what it'd take to trade up.

I don't see Russell Wilson.

Russell Wilson spent his entire career in a pro style offense. And he was prolific. Only reason he fell was because of height. He was a more developed player mentally and was more accurate.

Winston isn't JaMarcus Russell. And Russell failing had nothing to do with an ego. It was work ethic. Plenty of top QBs have an ego.

 

[drasconis]

Just more proof that people will see what they want to see.

That's going to include you also, so stating this like it changes the discussion is silly.

And someone is going to "have" to draft Winston early on. Winston has been plenty prolific too. As I said, this is nostalgia. All those guys had major concerns surrounding them coming out. All of them had detractors saying they shouldn't be drafted highly.

Obvious statement...you are never going to have EVERYONE agree. Heck some said that RG3 should go ahead of Luck....some thought Leaf was better than Manning....
I don't see any "nostalgia" in the statements...I see a statement that very regularly players get elevated to "can't miss" status because of what they did in college or at combines. The fact is neither is perfect, there is no perfect system for judging players, no one hits every time. You are elevating Winston, wrongly or rightly, based on how you judge players. You may very well be right, only time will tell.

 

[jrry32]

That's going to include you also, so stating this like it changes the discussion is silly.

That would be the point. I see fire, competitiveness, and emotion...someone else sees an out of control player with an ego that doesn't respect his coach.

Obvious statement...you are never going to have EVERYONE agree. Heck some said that RG3 should go ahead of Luck....some thought Leaf was better than Manning....
I don't see any "nostalgia" in the statements...I see a statement that very regularly players get elevated to "can't miss" status because of what they did in college or at combines. The fact is neither is perfect, there is no perfect system for judging players, no one hits every time. You are elevating Winston, wrongly or rightly, based on how you judge players. You may very well be right, only time will tell.

That's not the point of contention, though. The point of contention is that Winston isn't like those guys. He's only being elevated because of the system he plays in.