Mannion and preseason

[-X-]

See, I think they totally botched the backup QB situation last year,

How's that? They unloaded Bradford's contract, picked up a former pro-bowler, drafted a QB and brought Keenum back for a 7th. They couldn't trade up to the #1 or #2 spot last year either, so they did just about everything they could do. If Mannion wasn't better than anyone on the roster at the time, or wasn't up to speed, or whatever reason they had for keeping him on the bench (like saying he was redshirted before the season even started), then why throw him out there? A 17 week NFL season isn't an audition. It's about putting the best people on the field to win games. Is it inconceivable that Mannion really was the third best QB on the roster last year?

 

[Mackeyser]

My point was that the "QB duel" wasn't a duel at all. Fisher put Keenum front and center and it become much more "Keenum's backup job to lose" and a TON of reps were lost...ON THE BACKUP JOB.

Meanwhile, they drafted a QB who got very few reps....and it turned out to bite them on the butt.

Foles tanked after the Matthews hit, Keenum after the concussion (although neither were setting any records before) and after the losing streak, had Mannion gotten reps and been prepared, especially with Foles having lost the confidence of the coaching staff, it would seem the perfect time to see if they'd drafted the QB for the future since it was crystal clear that the QB of the future wasn't Keenum or Foles.

But Mannion had not been prepared. Fisher wouldn't even entertain talk of starting him. He wouldn't even elevate him to 2nd team if both Foles and Keenum were healthy.

I would agree with you that it's likely Mannion wasn't the best QB at that time, but not because he couldn't have been. All I've been saying is that with proper exposure, they'd know if he was barely a backup, a solid backup, a solid starter or potentially someone special. Now? How would they know? He practiced a bit in preseason... Funny, I saw the offense really respond to him in preseason, but it didn't seem like the coaches did. I dunno why.

That I have no explanation for...

 

[-X-]

All I've been saying is that with proper exposure, they'd know if he was barely a backup, a solid backup, a solid starter or potentially someone special. Now? How would they know? He practiced a bit in preseason... Funny, I saw the offense really respond to him in preseason, but it didn't seem like the coaches did. I dunno why.

Do you really believe that a team full of NFL coaches have no idea what they have in him? You can know what kind of a player he is without throwing him into live action ahead of schedule and potentially screwing up his development. This is probably the one time that the Rams are trying to properly develop a QB, and there's a problem with that? Even if/when they draft a QB this year, they can still have a potentially very good QB in Mannion to serve as backup. And wouldn't that be the best case scenario? Having not just one, but two starting caliber QBs going into the season?

 

[Yamahopper]

Exactly what constitutes "kicking the tires"?

See, I think they totally botched the backup QB situation last year, thus leaving next to no time to evaluate the rookie which is when you DO most rookie evals especially backups who don't play... like backup QBs. Thus, Mannion had very few practice reps, very little preseason game time and I stand corrected, he played in one game for mop up duty.

You think the Rams have a full enough picture of what Mannion is capable of in that year? That small sample size constitutes kicking the tires?

m'okay.

I don't think they've got the foggiest clue and it wouldn't be the first time.

I think Goff is gonna need more weapons and Foles isn't gonna likely yield any picks this draft, more likely late conditional picks in 2017. Keenum isn't going anywhere and he's affordable.

Foles is cheap this year. Why not get something to help now and then dump Foles at the end of the season?

They kicked his tires in OTA's every practice in camp, all the preseason games. he got some reps during the in season practices. If they wanted to see more or thought he deserved he could have been the choice to replace Foles. He could have started the last couple games at least. But nope they traded a bunch of premium picks to get a QB as their future.
Mannion didn't stand out in camp or preseason, he really wasn't much better than Gilbert was the year before.

So by the Rams own actions they've kicked his tires enough to know that they needed to go out and draft their future.
As I said earlier, he plays well he can win the backup job. Which what he was projected as coming out of school.

There is no QB competition for who starts, when Goff is ready he's it. And Goff should start game one. He is already that much better than any other QB on the roster.

Only caveat is if 3 years from now Goff is Jamarcus Russell bad whoever the coach / Gm is might give him a shot. Maybe.

 

[Akrasian]

They saw enough to realize that he didn't have elite QB potential - that doesn't mean that he doesn't have the potential of becoming a decent starter. Fisher took the Rams job partially because he thought he'd have an elite QB in house. That didn't work out, so they are going for something else. However, that doesn't mean they don't want a solid, affordable backup. Mannion may or may not be the guy for that, the one that can start if something happens to the starter. As outsiders we don't know either way - but the coaches do have more information than us.

 

[Mackeyser]

Do you really believe that a team full of NFL coaches have no idea what they have in him? You can know what kind of a player he is without throwing him into live action ahead of schedule and potentially screwing up his development. This is probably the one time that the Rams are trying to properly develop a QB, and there's a problem with that? Even if/when they draft a QB this year, they can still have a potentially very good QB in Mannion to serve as backup. And wouldn't that be the best case scenario? Having not just one, but two starting caliber QBs going into the season?

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Coach after Coach has complained bitterly that every year it gets harder and harder to properly evaluate players (and hurts players in the process) because of the lack of exposure to them. There's not enough reps even when they can rotate in.

I think the coaches know what kind of PERSON he is. But it's just a reality that "there are only so many snaps to go around" and they used a LOT of those snaps on the Keenum v Davis backup QB battle. And Foles got the 1st string QB reps.

Part of why Mannion is working so hard this off-season is because he got so little DURING the season.

And looking forward, the Rams have the starter Keenum and Goff, the #1 overall pick, both of whom are going to start out with the lion's share of the reps. It's unlikely bordering on the impossible that Mannion will displace Keenum because he won't have the reps. It won't be Keenum v Mannion for the starter and Goff as the #1 overall sitting and learning who'll move into the #2 as soon as he's ready... 'cuz this isn't 1970.

 

[Mackeyser]

They saw enough to realize that he didn't have elite QB potential - that doesn't mean that he doesn't have the potential of becoming a decent starter. Fisher took the Rams job partially because he thought he'd have an elite QB in house. That didn't work out, so they are going for something else. However, that doesn't mean they don't want a solid, affordable backup. Mannion may or may not be the guy for that, the one that can start if something happens to the starter. As outsiders we don't know either way - but the coaches do have more information than us.

I would most certainly agree that they have more information than us.

I think reps and play time have a minimum. I'm not sure I know what that is, but I know Mannion wasn't close to it. Sorta like saying, "I don't know what "rich" is, but I know I'm not close to it."

 

[…..]

Brees wasn't traded he signed with the Saints as an UFA coming off major shoulder surgery. Chargers let him walk because of the injury and the presence of Philip Rivers.

Good catch.

 

[blackbart]

And there is no way Mannion might be better now than he was at the end of the regular season because he's just been sitting around on his ass drinking beer the last 4 months.

 

[Ballhawk]

Do you really believe that a team full of NFL coaches have no idea what they have in him? You can know what kind of a player he is without throwing him into live action ahead of schedule and potentially screwing up his development. This is probably the one time that the Rams are trying to properly develop a QB, and there's a problem with that? Even if/when they draft a QB this year, they can still have a potentially very good QB in Mannion to serve as backup. And wouldn't that be the best case scenario? Having not just one, but two starting caliber QBs going into the season?

That would be a great argument if history hadn't shown that a team full of NFL coaches wouldn't play Warner until they had to even when he was clearly the best QB on the team in 1998 and 1999.

 

[rams56]

IMHO they spent a third round pick on him last year..... that's a pretty high draft pick to just sit and let other people play.... I think the Rams did kick the tires on him and like what they saw..that's why he is still on the roster... I also believe it's up to him to show huge improvement this year during OTA's and give the coaching staff no excuse not to let him compete. And I think best case senerio for the Rams depth chart is Goff/Wentz no 1 Mannion no 2 Kennum no 3 ( if we keep 3)..... That's best case...... but there is absolutely no reason that Mannion cannot be the bridge qb... and our QB position cannot be loaded with young talent.....

Go Rams.........

 

[nighttrain]

missing jrry32
train

 

[StealYoGurley]

That's EXACTLY what I'm saying. Coach after Coach has complained bitterly that every year it gets harder and harder to properly evaluate players (and hurts players in the process) because of the lack of exposure to them. There's not enough reps even when they can rotate in.

I think the coaches know what kind of PERSON he is. But it's just a reality that "there are only so many snaps to go around" and they used a LOT of those snaps on the Keenum v Davis backup QB battle. And Foles got the 1st string QB reps.

Part of why Mannion is working so hard this off-season is because he got so little DURING the season.

And looking forward, the Rams have the starter Keenum and Goff, the #1 overall pick, both of whom are going to start out with the lion's share of the reps. It's unlikely bordering on the impossible that Mannion will displace Keenum because he won't have the reps. It won't be Keenum v Mannion for the starter and Goff as the #1 overall sitting and learning who'll move into the #2 as soon as he's ready... 'cuz this isn't 1970.

You argue that the Rams dont know what they have in Mannion and they wont have the reps to figure that out so they should trade him. If the Rams don't know what they have what makes you think another team will offer value for that guy. At least with Foles there is plenty of game tape to break down. Mannion has little to no value to an outside team right now and you certainly wont recoup the third round pick you spent on him just last year.

Foles and Keenum are most likely gone next year getting rid of Mannion now leaves the cupboard bare for 2017. Whereas if you keep Mannion you at least have a backup with 3 years of experience on your team instead of trying to pigeon hole a vet into the system or waste more valuable draft capital looking for another backup who would be 3 years behind Mannion development wise. Getting rid of Mannion right now highly unlikely IMO wouldn't make sense for the Rams and I don't see anyone giving us anything close to the third round pick that we just spent on him so we might as well keep him in the building and keep developing him.

 

[-X-]

That would be a great argument if history hadn't shown that a team full of NFL coaches wouldn't play Warner until they had to even when he was clearly the best QB on the team in 1998 and 1999.

Except he wasn't the best in 98, and one could argue that Trent Green, at the time, was clearly better than Warner in 99. I get what you're saying though. You don't know until the guy is out there playing. But I go back to the Rams saying they were going to red shirt Mannion in his rookie year (which they did), so it's only the fans who would have trotted him out there sooner. If they want to actually develop Mannion into a starting QB, then that's their prerogative. I'm sure they have a real good idea of who he is as a passer. They just chose not to give him a trial by fire. So what. I'd hardly call that "botching" the situation.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

The Rams have solved their quarterback issues and we have people complaining - I'll read through all these posts again but Mannion is a great pick a year later

Goff/ Wentz - franchise QB
Mannion - developmental backup
Keenum - wily vet

QB position - DEEP

 

[Mackeyser]

You argue that the Rams dont know what they have in Mannion and they wont have the reps to figure that out so they should trade him. If the Rams don't know what they have what makes you think another team will offer value for that guy. At least with Foles there is plenty of game tape to break down. Mannion has little to no value to an outside team right now and you certainly wont recoup the third round pick you spent on him just last year.

Foles and Keenum are most likely gone next year getting rid of Mannion now leaves the cupboard bare for 2017. Whereas if you keep Mannion you at least have a backup with 3 years of experience on your team instead of trying to pigeon hole a vet into the system or waste more valuable draft capital looking for another backup who would be 3 years behind Mannion development wise. Getting rid of Mannion right now highly unlikely IMO wouldn't make sense for the Rams and I don't see anyone giving us anything close to the third round pick that we just spent on him so we might as well keep him in the building and keep developing him.

I said why.

Pay Keenum and keep him. A backup who can win is worth the money.

Mannion after this season will have 2 years under his belt and what? Still virtually no reps and still very little pre season time with the 3rd string and still very little development and THAT will be the basis for him to be THE GUY if Goff goes down?

As opposed to Keenum who will have started a bunch of games and have that starting experience?

2 Years on the bench with a few practice reps and a few minutes in a couple of pre-season games isn't enough development by itself to be a #2. That's barely enough to be a #3. It's close to abandonment.

Btw, this happens all the time all over the league. Sometimes a guy won't even unpack his suitcase before it happens. A guy is signed and then released, so there's no chance he showed anyone anything. Teams sign and release guys ALL THE TIME without enough information to know all they should know.

Mannion right now is basically a red-shirt Pro. He got to redshirt last year, did all the NFL stuff, classroom, weight room, be in the practice environment, participate...some... So, he's NOT a rookie. He's actually played in a few preseason games and took a few snaps in an NFL game. But...he's not going to earn a starting or backup job, either.

He's in that tweener stage right now between Rookie and Veteran. Well, in a constricted QB market, teams have resources to develop QBs, but there aren't QBs to develop.

We will have a #1 overall QB to develop, a backup QB that we shouldn't let go in Keenum and a 2nd year QB who's gotten little development and will get little or less this coming year due to drafting the #1 overall. Makes more sense to put ALL the available development resources into Goff.

 

[dieterbrock]

Russell Wilson was the 3rd string QB and got enough reps to win the starting QB job.
There's plenty of reps for 3 QBs until the rosters are cut to 75. But the pre season is already complete by then.
The Rams know exactly what they have in Mannion.

 

[Orchid]

I think if you go back, Wilson was splitting the second string reps from day one based on his work off the field. It took 2 preason games for them to say F&^%K this SH*& and name him the starter so that he could get 80-90% of the remaining preseason reps.

 

[Mackeyser]

And they'd paid for Hasselback, iirc, but paying for a QB isn't the same as paying a ton of picks and drafting one #1 overall. You start someone over your #1 overall, that's bad...

 

[Ballhawk]

Except he wasn't the best in 98, and one could argue that Trent Green, at the time, was clearly better than Warner in 99. I get what you're saying though. You don't know until the guy is out there playing. But I go back to the Rams saying they were going to red shirt Mannion in his rookie year (which they did), so it's only the fans who would have trotted him out there sooner. If they want to actually develop Mannion into a starting QB, then that's their prerogative. I'm sure they have a real good idea of who he is as a passer. They just chose not to give him a trial by fire. So what. I'd hardly call that "botching" the situation.

My point is that coaches make mistakes about Qbs all of the time. That is why they are fired every year. Vermeil and whoever his OC was in 1998 (Sanders?) thought that Tony banks was better than Warner, even though Warner was the only QB they had who could throw an accurate pass and move the offense. And it would have gotten Dick fired if he hadn't been forced to hire Martz, who brought Green with him.
Warner still had to save their asses in the end anyway!