Is Sam Bradford better than Nick Foles?

[RamseyF]

At what point does Bradford ever take the blame in your opinion? Or is it always the same "he never had an OL, and he never had WR's". Oddly guys in the same boat making a tenth of the money managed to do as well or better.

the point is nobody was in the same boat as Bradford. Unless you want to find four years of olines and WRs that bad. The way I see it is the critics that always have the same thing, "Bradford cannot do this and cannot do that" but it hard to get the evidence.

In this thread . . .it was shown in numbers how bad the WRs and Oline were.

So, I ask, at what point do you stop blaming Sam in your opinion. At what point will people admit that the oline was awful and the receivers not much better? Why do they keep making excuses for the WRs and Oline?

I am tired of the excuse making for the oline and WRs (Sam made them bad) and they were all NFL players so they cannot be that bad,

I tried to look the olinemen up and it turns out for a lot of them the Rams were their last team.

 

[jrry32]

Depends on what you focus on (stats), and we've seen only parts of it used by different sides of the debate.

The record
The TD/INT ratio
Total Yards
YPG
YPA
QB Rating

All I have to do is watch them play to know who the better QB is, but that's not an acceptable answer to those who dislike Bradford.

Record is a team stat. And total yards is a pretty meaningless stat when one guy played two more games. YPA is about the only one that actually favors Clemens...but if context is considered, it is also meaningless. Regardless, all you had to do was watch the two guys that year...and it was pretty clear that Clemens was nowhere even close to Bradford in terms of ability.(not that you disagree)

 

[LesBaker]

not sure . .. that was only posted to show another side of that sharpfootballanalytics thing. That one used just stats and as X said, it was wordy and charty. nerd stuff

so, the other one was about Aaron Rogers . . .but it did show a lot of QBs. So it was neither positive or negative. But if that guy wanted to make points with YPA, then he could look into two things: First, look at the PFF talent levels. Red recievers, really red offensive line . . .and still it seems Bradford was a green passer three of four years. Second, even with those red (negative talent levels) it seem Bradford shows okay in deep passing . . .so one dude, using stats show Bradford to be awful. Yet another site, just posts the stats without making cfomments and they show bad talent at oline and WR and still fairly positive resutls for Bradford.

So, that's why I cannto see what you mean. If I can, I try and look at all sides, not just one. But that's me. And anyway, Bradford is gone .. . I am actually more interested in Foles and how he will do and if his talent levels were able to help him excel in 2013.

You're basing a positive opinion on Bradford on one stat, and only his completion percentage in one very narrow area and essentially claiming that he is in fact a good QB because of that one very, very narrow stat. What about that fact that he was among the bottom, as in the very bottom, at throwing "deep passes".

 

[RamseyF]

I see a huge difference between Bradford and Clemens in the stats there...and an even bigger one in their play.

hmm
completion percentage less, TD % cut in half, int% doubles, yard per game down about 1/3. QB rating down, sacks% almost doubles

Yeah, Clemens was almost as good.

 

[dieterbrock]

what is weird is that Houston's defense was #1 against the pass at the time, the lost to Rams, then the Chiefs moved teh ball, then a bye, After the bye their defense fell apart.

View attachment 5759

Not sure what point you're trying to make. The defense was terrible prior to the Rams game giving up almost 28 points per game.
and out of those 5 games, 3 of the teams were superior rushing teams. Not passing teams

 

[RamseyF]

You're basing a positive opinion on Bradford on one stat, and only his completion percentage in one very narrow area and essentially claiming that he is in fact a good QB because of that one very, very narrow stat. What about that fact that he was among the bottom, as in the very bottom, at throwing "deep passes".

what do you mean at the bottom . .. the chart has Bradford 11th out of 50 . .. . how is 11th the very bottom? Honestly, I am missing what you are saying. The top is Rogers at over 50%, Bradford is at 42%----lots of others are lower.

Tell me where you are getting the stat that he is at the bottom at "deep passes" ... maybe it is there and I missed it.

 

[-X-]

Record is a team stat. And total yards is a pretty meaningless stat when one guy played two more games. YPA is about the only one that actually favors Clemens...but if context is considered, it is also meaningless. Regardless, all you had to do was watch the two guys that year...and it was pretty clear that Clemens was nowhere even close to Bradford in terms of ability.(not that you disagree)

Maybe I didn't introduce myself yet, Preacher Man.
I'm the choir.

 

[RamseyF]

Not sure what point you're trying to make. The defense was terrible prior to the Rams game giving up almost 28 points per game.
and out of those 5 games, 3 of the teams were superior rushing teams. Not passing teams

The point is that their defense was doing well against the run and the pass until after the bye, from looking at it, it seems the Texans were turing the ball over a lot on offense . . .which may have put them on short fields, and as to the points, wasn;t that the year that Schuad threw a pick six in several games and continued the streak when Ogletree scored?

So, you said they were awful, and yes, by seasons end they were, but when you look at when the Rams faced them, that defense was not awful.

edit: I just looked it up. You are right, in those first 8 games the Texans allowed 28 points a game. And part of that is they allowed 8 touchowns from the offense or special teams. That is 56 points for 8 points a game.

So, the net points was 19.7. Had they been on that pace they would have been 7th in the NFL in scoring defense. And I already pointed out they were #1 in pass defense when we played them and were high in total defense, too.

 

[dieterbrock]

You're basing a positive opinion on Bradford on one stat, and only his completion percentage in one very narrow area and essentially claiming that he is in fact a good QB because of that one very, very narrow stat. What about that fact that he was among the bottom, as in the very bottom, at throwing "deep passes".

amd there's the stats that really matter.
Offense points per game with Sam, 19
With Clemens, 19

Winning %? Slightly higher for Clemens

Yeah I expect the franchise qb to outperform the journeyman backup in that regard

 

[-X-]

amd there's the stats that really matter.
Offense points per game with Sam, 19
With Clemens, 19

Winning %? Slightly higher for Clemens

Yeah I expect the franchise qb to outperform the journeyman backup in that regard

Why? Do QBs catch their own passes and scheme their own WR's open? I thought you were of the opinion that Schotty sucks.
That aside, let me know if you see any difference between the first 7 games (Bradford's) and the last 9.

 

[jrry32]

amd there's the stats that really matter.
Offense points per game with Sam, 19
With Clemens, 19

Winning %? Slightly higher for Clemens

Yeah I expect the franchise qb to outperform the journeyman backup in that regard

And yet, Bradford was accounting for 2 TDs per game. Clemens was accounting for less than 1 TD per game.

Hmm...what other part of the offense might make up for the huge margin in QB play in 2013...maybe the running game?
Under Bradford - 2013
70.6 YPG
3.19 YPC
0 TDPG

Under Clemens - 2013
139.8 YPG
4.64 YPC
1.1 TDPG

Damn. That Bradford just didn't do a good enough job running the football. Nor did he do a good enough job blocking for the HBs.

 

[RamseyF]

Damn. That Bradford just didn't do a good enough job running the football. Nor did he do a good enough job blocking for the HBs.

Well, Sam influenced the RBs and Oline play worse than they would have otehrwise, so clearly "Is it worth discussing that Bradford may have influenced many of those negative rankings with his play? "

 

[RamseyF]

And yet, Bradford was accounting for 2 TDs per game. Clemens was accounting for less than 1 TD per game.

Defense also seemed to improve under Clemens . . . he got that run defense going.

to be fair, I need to look at pick 6s and scoop and scores, too.

 

[dieterbrock]

The point is that their defense was doing well against the run and the pass until after the bye, from looking at it, it seems the Texans were turing the ball over a lot on offense . . .which may have put them on short fields, and as to the points, wasn;t that the year that Schuad threw a pick six in several games and continued the streak when Ogletree scored?

So, you said they were awful, and yes, by seasons end they were, but when you look at when the Rams faced them, that defense was not awful.

edit: I just looked it up. You are right, in those first 8 games the Texans allowed 28 points a game. And part of that is they allowed 8 touchowns from the offense or special teams. That is 56 points for 8 points a game.

So, the net points was 19.7. Had they been on that pace they would have been 7th in the NFL in scoring defense. And I already pointed out they were #1 in pass defense when we played them and were high in total defense, too.

Again not understanding the point. The Rams had a total of 216 yards in the game. Lowest against Houston all year. And Sam's crooked qb rating was as silly as Clemens in X example. So I cited that game as a statistcal anomaly agreeing with stats being misleading.

 

[dieterbrock]

Did I offend you or something while I was making a point about stats in general?
I could have just as easily said this:

This is Tom Brady. Worst QB in the world. 52 QB Rating, with a 5 YPA.

Offend? Nope I thought we were agreeing how stats can be misleading

 

[LesBaker]

what do you mean at the bottom . .. the chart has Bradford 11th out of 50 . .. . how is 11th the very bottom? Honestly, I am missing what you are saying. The top is Rogers at over 50%, Bradford is at 42%----lots of others are lower.

Tell me where you are getting the stat that he is at the bottom at "deep passes" ... maybe it is there and I missed it.

Attempts.

 

[dieterbrock]

And yet, Bradford was accounting for 2 TDs per game. Clemens was accounting for less than 1 TD per game.

Hmm...what other part of the offense might make up for the huge margin in QB play in 2013...maybe the running game?
Under Bradford - 2013
70.6 YPG
3.19 YPC
0 TDPG

Under Clemens - 2013
139.8 YPG
4.64 YPC
1.1 TDPG

Damn. That Bradford just didn't do a good enough job running the football. Nor did he do a good enough job blocking for the HBs.

Because fisher relied on bradford. Because bradford was his franchise qb.
So when Clem came in, they took the ball out of his hands, and the offense didn't suffer

 

[RamseyF]

Again not understanding the point. The Rams had a total of 216 yards in the game. Lowest against Houston all year. And Sam's crooked qb rating was as silly as Clemens in X example. So I cited that game as a statistcal anomaly agreeing with stats being misleading.

But you also said it was "pitiful" Houston. You made a comment that I thought was based on their final record. Maybe you weren't. Then when I said they were good on defense at the time, you said "...The defense was terrible prior to the Rams game giving up almost 28 points per game .. . " To me, and correct me if I am wrong, that you were saying they were pitiful and to make that point you said they gave up 28 points a game. So, since I looked it up, and remembered Schaub's season, I knew that the 28 points a game was an anomaly. Since points count against a defense, even if the offense or special teams allowed them'

So, to make sure were were on the same page I showed that yes, your 27.7 points a game the Texans allowed was correct. However, what made it an anomaly is that 8.0 points a game were given up by offense or special teams. And when you took that into account they allowed 19.7 points a game, which is not pitiful. It's pretty good.

So, if they were not allowing points that were pitiful, and they were stopping teh run and the pass, then how was the Texans defense "pitiful'?
I think a comprehensive look at those numbers show that at the time, even their first 8 games (which you used as their almost 28 points a game) that Bradford did well against a defense who was, at the time, NOT pitiful when looked at in context

I hope that helps you understand the point. The example you used was not a good example of a statistical anomaly.

 

[LesBaker]

do you want me to go dig up an article with stats showing how good sam was? there have been a few.

you can use stats any way you want.

.

Go ahead, I'd like to read them.

 

[RamseyF]

Attempts.

Where is that stat? How many attempts did he have? I missed it.

I saw this: "The year-to-year stalwarts such as Eli Manning, Rodgers, Brees, Peyton Manning are at or near the top in attempts. Russell Wilson, Michael Vick, Sam Bradford, Matt Schaub are among those in the middle in attempts, and Carr and E.J. Manuel have among the fewest for those just beginning their career. Some out-of-football quarterbacks still had enough attempts to qualify are Tavaris Jackson and Tim Tebow.

Brian Hoyer and Matt Moore had 88 and 89 deep passing attempts, respectively, since 2010 and were usually on the mark. They are the only two in the top thirteen who had fewer than 100 attempts at deep passes.

how is "in the middle" (and he missed 1-1/2 years of those five years) mean dead last?