Is Jefferson a deep threat?

[dang]

If not how about someone like FA Nelson Agholor. Been watching him for years and while his stars are hot and cold I think he may be a diamond in the rough deep threat. Any others out there they might be available at reasonable contract?

 

[Ellard80]

I have a question for the other forum self appointed experts. What constitutes a deep threat? What a deep threat is may have been a better thread subject to start.

Tyler Higbee every year has at least one catch over 30 yards is he a deep threat? Kupp every year has a catch over 55 yards he ran a 4.62 is he a deep threat? How about instead of throwing around insults we first figure out what most people consider a deep threat.

For me it's a guy with speed who can consistently use that speed to get separation from the CB on deep routes. His speed and ability to use it is good enough that it forces the opposing DC to adjust coverage over the top to help negate the WR's speed. I think there are a lot of guys that are capable of getting deep passes sometimes but that doesn't make them in my book a deep threat.

im with you - i dont think we have true deep threats.

We have some guys that can hit an occasionaly deep shot - i remember kupp having one against the bears last year.

but a true burner downfield type? no we don't

Watkins and Cooks were deep threats - not A level deep threats, but maybe b, b- level.

 

[8to12]

not A level deep threats, but maybe b, b- level.

Can you define what an "A" level threat is?

 

[“Turbo set!”]

His father Sean was a deep threat with the Chargers. Like father...

 

[Allen2McVay]

Yep.

Underrated aspect of the Goff/Wolford decision, which were not privy to and will never be: why did Wolford throw deep more than Goff had in his last five or six games combined?

McVay and Wolford both commented after the game that the AZ corners jumped some routes expecting underneath throws, and Wolford read that and took advantage. You can see it on a couple of the deep passes.

 

[MachS]

im with you - i dont think we have true deep threats.

We have some guys that can hit an occasionaly deep shot - i remember kupp having one against the bears last year.

but a true burner downfield type? no we don't

Watkins and Cooks were deep threats - not A level deep threats, but maybe b, b- level.

Its not about having a "true deep threat" like Cooks or Tyreek, or a prime DJax. It's about throwing the ball VERTICALLY down the field to make the defense respect that part of our passing game. Walford was attacking down the field constantly. He threw multiple 1 on 1 back shoulder throws, deep wheel routes, and go routes. Thats what has been missing with this offense... Vertical passing.

The last 2 years Goff has been taking almost all underneath routes in our route combinations instead of going down the field. Which is why it seems like majority of his completions are crossing routes, in breaking route, and out breaking routes. And why hes 32nd in average depth of target. I think he either lost confidence in his deep accuracy or in the OL protection after last season. But it was a breath of fresh air to see us attacking down the field again.

Woods, Kupp, and VJ all have enough speed to be good down the field, but more importantly they create great separation and have great hands. Whoever starts at QB needs to continue to be aggressive down the field and I personally think all 3 are viable deep targets even though they dont have elite speed. To me this is the single biggest difference between the '17/'18 offense and the '19/'20 offense. Not enough explosive passing plays down the field.

 

[TexasRam]

Deep shots have to do with the destruction of the Oline. The inability to force defenses to bring extra defenders to stop the run game and also pass protectors with issues such as Havenstein, Blythe and our TE's. Combine that with Goff's lack of mobility and zero WR's that can go up and get a ball and you have what you have.

We have actually tried several this year that Goff hit perfectly and a few from Sunday. But what happens every time is the WR or TE has no idea how to go up and fight for the ball.

So its a combination of Oline, WR ability and Goff lacking ability to either hit the vertical or scramble.

At some point the Rams decided to go to the shorter game predominately and you can blame them.

 

[OldSchool]

Its not about having a "true deep threat" like Cooks or Tyreek, or a prime DJax. It's about throwing the ball VERTICALLY down the field to make the defense respect that part of our passing game. Walford was attacking down the field constantly. He threw multiple 1 on 1 back shoulder throws, deep wheel routes, and go routes. Thats what has been missing with this offense... Vertical passing.

I tend to agree with what you said, however that's not what the question or statement of this thread was.

 

[matt30]

I have a question for the other forum self appointed experts. What constitutes a deep threat? What a deep threat is may have been a better thread subject to start.

Tyler Higbee every year has at least one catch over 30 yards is he a deep threat? Kupp every year has a catch over 55 yards he ran a 4.62 is he a deep threat? How about instead of throwing around insults we first figure out what most people consider a deep threat.

For me it's a guy with speed who can consistently use that speed to get separation from the CB on deep routes. His speed and ability to use it is good enough that it forces the opposing DC to adjust coverage over the top to help negate the WR's speed. I think there are a lot of guys that are capable of getting deep passes sometimes but that doesn't make them in my book a deep threat.

Fast, tall, good hands, good tracking ability, lots of reps, good stamina. The hardest part of going deep is tracking the ball and recognizing the timing and protection. The further you go from the LOS the less accurate the ball placement is going to be (just as a matter of physics). Lots of WR are capable of beating a CB in a full sprint. That's why we have safeties. The ability to actually make good adjustments on the ball is much more rare.

 

[matt30]

And why hes 32nd in average depth of target. I think he either lost confidence in his deep accuracy or in the OL protection after last season. But it was a breath of fresh air to see us attacking down the field again.

Earlier in the season either McVay or the OC told the media that this team was built around YAC. Getting the ball in the hands of playmakers and letting them do their thing.

I think the deep passing game was specifically set up for the Cardinals game because 1) you don't expect that from a backup and 2) the Cards secondary is not very good.

 

[OldSchool]

Fast, tall, good hands, good tracking ability, lots of reps, good stamina. The hardest part of going deep is tracking the ball and recognizing the timing and protection. The further you go from the LOS the less accurate the ball placement is going to be (just as a matter of physics). Lots of WR are capable of beating a CB in a full sprint. That's why we have safeties. The ability to actually make good adjustments on the ball is much more rare.

Thank you! One person gave their opinion on what qualifies somebody as a deep threat! I like the thoughts as well.

 

[Ellard80]

Can you define what an "A" level threat is?

tyreek hill for sure... than maybe dj metcalf... mike evans historically but maybe not anymore.

Antonio Brown was a few years ago...

An A level deep threat is rare.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

The Rams don't have a guy with Cooks speed. They don't have a guy that defenses are worried about getting past them on any given play.

And as some have said, they don't have the pass blocking to consistently give receivers time to get open deep.

 

[Merlin]

For me a deep threat is a guy who can catch a CB napping. At the lowest level of the definition.

Right now I don't think Kupp and Woody are on the plus side there. They can at times but it's not something you're going in and feeling like you have an advantage against an average DB.

That play there if the safety was anyone but a top 5 type which Baker is IMO, Van probably would have had more room to maneuver. So looking at it I feel like Van vs the average CB3 he'll see in the playoffs yeah he's a guy you can take shots with.

And btw the double move matters too. But just in general my idea there was to give the kid some props. Does that make you feel like you have received enough feedback on your question OS?

 

[OldSchool]

And btw the double move matters too. But just in general my idea there was to give the kid some props. Does that make you feel like you have received enough feedback on your question OS?

Sure does! I thought the other day after all the insults thrown around in the other thread about making one asking that very question what makes a deep threat. But some would just consider that me attacking them but saw this thread and felt the question needed to be asked.

Many WR's as I and others have said can get open sometimes for deep balls and catch them. That to many of us does not however make that WR a deep threat, that's a special skill set I think and unfortunately I don't think we have anybody that fits that billing or at least fits my definition.

 

[CGI_Ram]

For me it's a guy with speed who can consistently use that speed to get separation from the CB on deep routes. His speed and ability to use it is good enough that it forces the opposing DC to adjust coverage over the top to help negate the WR's speed.

That would be my definition. Just that.

If not how about someone like FA Nelson Agholor. Been watching him for years and while his stars are hot and cold I think he may be a diamond in the rough deep threat. Any others out there they might be available at reasonable contract?

I think this offseason this might be a route to consider. A complimentary piece, with experience, so we take advantage of that piece right away.

It can’t all come from the draft.

 

[badnews]

Taking shots deep require 2 things and neither one is a super fast Wide Receiver.
1 - the defense can't (shouldnt?) be in two deep zone or expecting the deep ball.
2 - the O-line has to hold up in pass protection.

With those two things, Case Keenum could find Kenny Britt. Its not rocket science.
Connecting deep with any regularity usually requires great chemistry and lots of reps between the QB and his reciever.

Connecting deep doesn't require a "deep threat" guy with insane speed - but they certainly help. Those guys can open up the whole field for the rest of the offense. If and when the defense guesses wrong or doesn't respect that speed, those guys can catch it with no one within 10 yards and go score. Tyreek Hill does this regularly. When we connect deep, the only way we are scoring is if the DB falls or just whiffs. Our guys just don't have those kind of wheels. Woods and Kupp are great and VJ might become a real weapon on the outside with really nice speed - but he probably isn't going to change the Defenses coverage just because he is pretty fast. There is a big difference between a low 4.4 and a low 4.3. That difference is the separation you see when true "deep threats" get loose behind the D compared to what we see from our guys: just open enough to sometimes catch it before being tackled. The only time you see our guys get big separation is at the top of their routes - because our guys are great route runners, not "deep threats".
Lots of teams don't have a Tyreek Hill or Henry Ruggs or DeSean Jackson in his prime. But the other way to win deep is with physical guys with great size, adequate speed and the mindset to attack the ball. Guys like Julio or Hopkins. Regardless of what you want to call those guys (1 WR's?), we don't have one of them either right now. Watkins provided that role for us here as a poor man's #1 WR, then Cooks provided the deep threat. Either way, we have neither type right now and we miss it dearly.

McVay basically said they would be playing that AZ game with nothing to lose, pulling out all the stops. He knew that their Defense wouldn't respect the rookies long ball and he probably went over this opportunity with Wolford.

Arizona doesn't have the best D-line in the league by any stretch but even their guys were consistently collapsing our pocket.
The reason this deep Jefferson play worked had a lot more to do with scheme and gamesmanship than Jeffersons speed or our lines ability to hold up.

Another thing - once Wolford started running, the D had to account for that. The threat of a QB with wheels taking off down the middle forces those guys to slow-rush and contain the potential exit routes the QB might take.

Lots of QBs can overcome bad pass pro for a game or two. It's not something that gets easier with more experience. The longer a QB plays behind a pocket that can't consistently hold up, the more it affects him. Case in point - our Center gets shoved into the QBs lap and our RT *barely* keeps a speed rusher from getting within arms reach all of the time. So over time, when Goff feels the pressure, he neither trusts stepping up in the pocket, nor does he trust sliding to his right. And why would he?

McVay does so much to hide this lines problems, it's worthy of praise. The commitment to the run, the continuous balance of playcalling, the "sameness" in the way our runs and passes look, the play action, the presnap motion... the O-line are the biggest beneficiaries of all of this smoke and mirrors and yet they have been incapable of holding up in obvious deep pass situations (why McVay calls runs on 3rd and a mile), they struggle greatly vs stunts, and even in the run game, they have been unable to get serious, consistent push since around week 4 when the league caught on to our new and improved run blocking schemes (much more diagonal than horizontal like last year.

We've seen Goff lead the league in yards per completion when his line held up and his RB could handle the blitz.
But we don't have that RB, we don't have Saffold or Sullivan and Whitworth is amazing but even when healthy, he isn't as good as he was 4 seasons ago.

Yes, its possible that Goff just doesn't want to get to throw the bombs that fans like. He might not like throwing TDs from inside the 10 either. I meanings, what QB wants to throw bombs and TDs? It's possible....
...but it's much more likely that McVay is trying to win with his defense until the pass pro gets better and simply hasn't been dialing up many opportunities to make it work and Goff is trying to honor that by not taking low % throws with potential for bad outcomes.
The sad part is that without the deep throws, the defense doesn't honor it, they sit on the short stuff and Goff throws ints anyway.

 

[FrantikRam]

Taking shots deep require 2 things and neither one is a super fast Wide Receiver.
1 - the defense can't (shouldnt?) be in two deep zone or expecting the deep ball.
2 - the O-line has to hold up in pass protection.

With those two things, Case Keenum could find Kenny Britt. Its not rocket science.
Connecting deep with any regularity usually requires great chemistry and lots of reps between the QB and his reciever.

Connecting deep doesn't require a "deep threat" guy with insane speed - but they certainly help. Those guys can open up the whole field for the rest of the offense. If and when the defense guesses wrong or doesn't respect that speed, those guys can catch it with no one within 10 yards and go score. Tyreek Hill does this regularly. When we connect deep, the only way we are scoring is if the DB falls or just whiffs. Our guys just don't have those kind of wheels. Woods and Kupp are great and VJ might become a real weapon on the outside with really nice speed - but he probably isn't going to change the Defenses coverage just because he is pretty fast. There is a big difference between a low 4.4 and a low 4.3. That difference is the separation you see when true "deep threats" get loose behind the D compared to what we see from our guys: just open enough to sometimes catch it before being tackled. The only time you see our guys get big separation is at the top of their routes - because our guys are great route runners, not "deep threats".
Lots of teams don't have a Tyreek Hill or Henry Ruggs or DeSean Jackson in his prime. But the other way to win deep is with physical guys with great size, adequate speed and the mindset to attack the ball. Guys like Julio or Hopkins. Regardless of what you want to call those guys (1 WR's?), we don't have one of them either right now. Watkins provided that role for us here as a poor man's #1 WR, then Cooks provided the deep threat. Either way, we have neither type right now and we miss it dearly.

McVay basically said they would be playing that AZ game with nothing to lose, pulling out all the stops. He knew that their Defense wouldn't respect the rookies long ball and he probably went over this opportunity with Wolford.

Arizona doesn't have the best D-line in the league by any stretch but even their guys were consistently collapsing our pocket.
The reason this deep Jefferson play worked had a lot more to do with scheme and gamesmanship than Jeffersons speed or our lines ability to hold up.

Another thing - once Wolford started running, the D had to account for that. The threat of a QB with wheels taking off down the middle forces those guys to slow-rush and contain the potential exit routes the QB might take.

Lots of QBs can overcome bad pass pro for a game or two. It's not something that gets easier with more experience. The longer a QB plays behind a pocket that can't consistently hold up, the more it affects him. Case in point - our Center gets shoved into the QBs lap and our RT *barely* keeps a speed rusher from getting within arms reach all of the time. So over time, when Goff feels the pressure, he neither trusts stepping up in the pocket, nor does he trust sliding to his right. And why would he?

McVay does so much to hide this lines problems, it's worthy of praise. The commitment to the run, the continuous balance of playcalling, the "sameness" in the way our runs and passes look, the play action, the presnap motion... the O-line are the biggest beneficiaries of all of this smoke and mirrors and yet they have been incapable of holding up in obvious deep pass situations (why McVay calls runs on 3rd and a mile), they struggle greatly vs stunts, and even in the run game, they have been unable to get serious, consistent push since around week 4 when the league caught on to our new and improved run blocking schemes (much more diagonal than horizontal like last year.

We've seen Goff lead the league in yards per completion when his line held up and his RB could handle the blitz.
But we don't have that RB, we don't have Saffold or Sullivan and Whitworth is amazing but even when healthy, he isn't as good as he was 4 seasons ago.

Yes, its possible that Goff just doesn't want to get to throw the bombs that fans like. He might not like throwing TDs from inside the 10 either. I meanings, what QB wants to throw bombs and TDs? It's possible....
...but it's much more likely that McVay is trying to win with his defense until the pass pro gets better and simply hasn't been dialing up many opportunities to make it work and Goff is trying to honor that by not taking low % throws with potential for bad outcomes.
The sad part is that without the deep throws, the defense doesn't honor it, they sit on the short stuff and Goff throws ints anyway.

Three issues I have with your logic:

First, AZ has over 40 sacks - their pass rush has been very good

Second, teams have been playing us within 10 yards of the LOS all year, so it doesn't make sense to just now start throwing deep

Third - and this one is for everyone talking about deep threats - Cooks only ever got the same separation that VJ got on that play. It's not like Cooks was running wide open deep - the CB was almost always on his hip and he was tackled right after catching the ball - Jefferson showed he can do that

I can see McVay wanting to play it safe earlier this year, but after playing it safe and that leading to so many turnovers and the offense struggling, I doubt he's told Goff to stay conservative, but we will never know for sure

 

[dieterbrock]

If not how about someone like FA Nelson Agholor. Been watching him for years and while his stars are hot and cold I think he may be a diamond in the rough deep threat. Any others out there they might be available at reasonable contract?

Agholor isnt a deep threat, he's a possession guy who drops passes. More or less an unreliable Robert Woods.


As for the "deep threat" guy, the Rams dont have one, but that doesnt mean Jefferson isnt one, it means he isnt one yet.
Watkins and Cooks were both accomplished WR when they came aboard and drew immediate attention.
Sure you draft a guy with 4.3 speed and line him out wide, it will draw attention, but "that guy" wasnt available...
Lord knows if Van is going to play the X, he's got to be able to get off the line, maybe he's struggled with that in practice? Dont know. But whatever happened for him to be open like he was against AZ, lets see more of that.

 

[Malibu]

Stop with all this Jefferson is so great talk he did nothing this year. He's had drops and when in mostly invisible.

Yet the other Jefferson on Minnesota tore it up the best rookie we season of all time. A ton of wrs were taken in the draft and I was against the pick because I felt we needed OL help more.

Hopefully he grows over the off season.