Hunting/Survival/Shooting/Prepping

[coconut]

Okay, update.

Had a lot of time with this latest migraine to do research (not including the latest gun rabbit hole I'll go into later).

Been refocusing on high country, either SW Colorado (near Wolf Creek), NW Colorado, western Wyoming or SW Montana. Basically Rocky Mountain ranches. There are a couple of "lottery properties" up there, my fave is a 10k acre ranch nestled into a valley in MT with crazy views, over 750m of elevation change, arable land as well as tons of game, deer, mule deer, elk, black bear and others. These places also have senior water rights, flowing water on the property, mineral rights and generally no easements. The stuff I'm looking at also tends to be contiguous property. I wouldn't get a place with two deeded parcels separated by federal/state lands. That's asking for trouble, imho. Also, the taxes are stupid low. I've looked at a bunch of 10k acre properties (all out of my price range, but the looking is fun) and the highest property taxes I saw was 9k a year. Which is insane for that much productive land.

Was rethinking MN and the mosquito issue was one problem for me. The cold was another, but honestly, the biggest issue was water. I would prefer flowing water and fewer to no mosquitoes. Also, looking at property in MN, it's almost all flat farmland or the parcels are way too small. There are TONS of 200-2k acre properties that could be what I'd want out west, but literally nothing that big in Minny that's not clearly in eyesight of a highway with no cover. Looked at a few "hunting plots" and they're barely 20 acres.

Out west is just better for larger plots.

Also, it's less cold for the most part and the whole clan (other than my youngest) love the mountains and "snow cold" versus "arctic cold". I worry a bit about drought and forest fires...that's more of an issue in southwest Colorado, but every area is gonna have something and if I can get a place, one of the first things I'll get is a water catchment system. They aren't super expensive (compared to the alternative) and if you build it and a geothermal heating system at the time of the house, you're way ahead in a grid down scenario. I honestly love both southwest CO and SW Montana and the wife and I have been to CO and loved it. The properties in SW Montana, tho...holy cow... they are just BEYOND beautiful.

As for isolation, we're both home bodies and as long as there's civilization relatively close, we're good. I already don't leave my property for months at a time even if I go outside. We already joke that we're astronauts in that we can hole up for extended periods as a family and we get along great. And we already have to drive 30+ minutes to bowling, 45+ minutes to BJs or Sams (although a new Costco opened pretty close and I need to check that one out) and as former Angelenos, driving isn't an issue for us... unless the roads are windy and then the wife gets car sick... I'll have to lend her my seasickness bands and see if they help when we get a chance to visit the areas in question.

Still love the people in Minny, but yeah, looking more out west.

For the rest of this discussion the Oglala is a distraction and that's my bad. It is being depleted, but who knows what farming looks like in a prolonged grid down scenario? Is it Amish with hand pumped water? I dunno.

As for skills, yeah, I'm going to start a garden and I want to learn how to fully process game including making leather using only the animal. People forget that woven cloth will quickly wear out and no one can stock enough underwear. Women will have a much worse time as things go on because, again, you can only stock so many feminine products and then....they're gone.

So, that gun rabbit hole. @bluecoconuts I was looking for an all-purpose hunting/self-defense gun with range capabilities and I found this. It ain't cheap, but that's not really a concern when you're dreaming, is it?

It's the Wilson Combat Super Sniper 6.5 Creedmoor. It's purdy...

It can come in the 20", 22" or 24" threaded fluted barrel. I'd go with the 24" barrel, a Thunder Beast Ultra 9 suppressor so that I could hunt without hearing protection and a Nightforce ATACR F1 7-35x56mm scope. I know it's a bit weighty, but it beats carrying two guns. I like the longer barrel for greater muzzle velocity and accuracy. It's not major, but when it comes to a clean kill, I'll take any advantage. Rig like that can hold 20 rounds AND be pushed out to 1500m with the heavier round staying supersonic until 1100m, iirc. I also realized with the 143gr Hornady ammo, it's weighty enough to deal with everything I'd see... apparently the Swedes have been using 6.5variants for 100 years or so for their biggest game with no problems, so no reason other than fun to look at a .338 Lapua, .338 Norma or the .416 Barrett. Not that it wouldn't be fun to set up a 2500m range, tho...hehehehe.

Looks super clean and having a "universal" platform means more training time on it...which is really what matters as a good marksman with a plain jane Remington 700 in .308 will smoke a guy who has the latest Steyr Carbon CL2 or a custom rig from a place like Gunwerks. So yeah, planning on lots and lots of training.

Anyway, I've looked at more stuff, but I'll leave it at this for now.

And @bluecoconuts you were totally right. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the way to go. MUCH better ballistics than the .308 AND SOCOM snipers are moving to it this year if they haven't already so there should be a bunch more availability in the next few years. That said, I did read from multiple sources that it's very important to get a purpose built hunting round and I agree. I saw a 1k batch of Hornady Precision Hunter 6.5 Creedmoor 143gr ELD-X which has a ballistic coefficient of approx 0.625 for $1.14/round on Ammoseek.com. They don't carry 6.5 Creedmoor on Bulkammo.com, but I expect that to change once the 6.5 Creed is fully adopted into the US Military. It's already a pretty big round among Euros and in Aussieland... Also, while it's not cheap, but it's not $4-7/round, either...

Considering even with I was plinking with .22lr ammo, I made every round count in that "you play how you practice" so I never, EVER just threw rounds down range. For me, the juice is in the practice, not listening to an expensive noisemaker. Others dig it and to each their own, but I'm not as worried about ammo price as some, even with an AR10 rig vs a bolt action rig. To further illustrate this point, I see young guys doing donuts in a parking lot and my first thought is that they're wasting expensive rubber on going in very small circles...and it stinks something awful. I don't get it, but again... to each their own.

Anyway, was wondering what you or anyone else thought.

Mountain land isn't productive. Agriculturally far less productive than MN. Hunting for a family is not that sustainable when others are doing the same. Snowed in and having to go out and hunt? I suggest you read about REAL homesteading in the Rockies. Real as in not a multimillionaire who can have something built to spec. and can hunt with a helicopter and has fuel stored for years of use by all his vehicles. Geothermally heat your mountain home? You will be burning wood unless you find coal. Remember what I wrote about trees in MN? IT IS WORSE IN THE ROCKIES. There may be lots of trees but their heating value is terrible which means more trees and work needed. You should spend a week in winter with ever increasing snow pack. Tampa would look better and better.

 

[oldnotdead]

Just out of curiosity has anyone actually been in combat? Has anyone actually killed another human being? If you haven't let me tell you it's not like the movies in any way shape or form. For the average American killing is hard. It's not like shooting deer or even bear. For most of us it's something that will haunt you for the rest of your life.

Surviving in the world you describe, is not about winning firefights. The key is not to be found in the first place. Hone your field craft, learn to blend in and not be seen or heard. Learn how to move quietly. Hone your hand to hand combat skills. Using a gun is the option of last resort and even if you survive the firefight, the danger will increase exponentially. Once you fire your weapon you are exposed. Silencers are a myth for movies.

Do you know what true assassins use if they use a gun? They use a .22 caliber pistol (luger action) firing a .22 short. The round is subsonic and with a luger, when the bullet reaches the end of the barrel the chamber pressure is zero. The noise of the action cycling is about the same as the report. The aim point is the occipital lobe and death is instantaneous.

Killing a human being is a horrific thing. Not something to be assumed or taken lightly. It's why I've decided that if things ever got that bad I wouldn't want to live in that kind of world with that kind of baggage, I've got enough. Life at any cost may not be life at all.

It's a personal decision but the consequences are dire.....just something to consider.

 

[Mackeyser]

Mountain land isn't productive. Agriculturally far less productive than MN. Hunting for a family is not that sustainable when others are doing the same. Snowed in and having to go out and hunt? I suggest you read about REAL homesteading in the Rockies. Real as in not a multimillionaire who can have something built to spec. and can hunt with a helicopter and has fuel stored for years of use by all his vehicles. Geothermally heat your mountain home? You will be burning wood unless you find coal. Remember what I wrote about trees in MN? IT IS WORSE IN THE ROCKIES. There may be lots of trees but their heating value is terrible which means more trees and work needed. You should spend a week in winter with ever increasing snow pack. Tampa would look better and better.

Well, I did live in eastern PA for nearly 4 years including 4 winters in which some aspect of the winter was the "worst in 100 years". Coldest day, most days below freezing, most snow, most snow in a day/week/ ... you name it.

I. LOVED. IT. I love the sound of snow, the snap in the air and even though it'd whoop my ass, I never minded shoveling snow, scraping ice off the windows or any of that. Others hated it. I really didn't. My whole family is a bit different in that regard. We all know that we're in FL for a reason, but if we had our druthers, we'd be in a much colder climate.

You know what I hate? Always having a sweaty f'n crotch from the heat. I enjoy the heat, somewhat, but I can't enjoy it here because I'm allergic to mosquitoes. Dunno if it's a certain species of mosquito or a certain time in their development, but there are certain mosquitoes where one bite will give me a welt more than 3 inches across. I'm more allergic to them and dust mites than pure histomine. Did the allergy test and I reacted so strongly to the scratch test, they refused to do the under the skin test for fear of anaphylaxis.

Which makes Central Florida no end of fun...

Also, much of this is dreaming. I'm a service connected disabled vet that's super connected to the world in that I need plenty of meds regularly. Now, with lots of money, there are things I could do to mitigate that a lot, but I don't have it at this point.

If SHTF happened today, I'd be like the guy in Independence Day who just looks up, says, "oh, crap" and watches the car fall on him. So in that vein, this is just mentally preparing for a remote possibility.

As for geothermal heating, if you couple that with some pretty ingenuous commercial chillers, you can heat and cool a rather large home for about a quarter of the electricity. I was watching a youtube of an engineer who had experience in commercial spaces and I think he's really on to something. The cost is less as residential stuff doesn't scale and the smaller commercial stuff is actually CHEAPER, more efficient and better for things like radiant heat/cooling (in floor heat, basically). I'd really be trying to be efficient, even if I had a ton of budget because you have more excess capacity and can absorb things like panel failures if you're not pushing peak demand.

If the land is heavily timbered, even in a large structure, you can forgo multiple stories for a more "hacienda" style home and heat even large family areas with rocket mass heaters which are ridiculously efficient. That also allows for rudimentary "zone heating" which could be nice if it's clear and cold, but one side of the building has a nice southwestern exposure and doesn't need as much heat. Couple geothermal heating including radiant floor heating with rocket mass heaters and as long as the insulation is substantial, you could be good into super cold (-40F) temps. That also leaves the off-grid electrical system for lights, electrics and electronics, fans, geothermal pumps and outbuilding electricity and would reduce the overall system load dramatically. Moreover, building rocket mass heaters is cheap. Mostly, you need fire bricks, clay instead of cement for thin mortar, maybe need a 55g oil drum, but it can be built from natural earth, clay, hay and then steel ducting. I dunno total costs, but it's pretty cheap. As in maybe a couple hundred bucks unless you're making a really big or elaborate custom one. Moreover, especially in the dry winter season, the last thing one would want to do is be putting sparks or embers out the roof and rocket mass heaters burn so efficiently that there is almost no ash, no creosote and the temps leaving the flue to the outside is about 120 degrees or so as opposed to the required 350 degrees for a wood stove.

As for "productive", the land I'm looking at is REMOTE. I wouldn't be competing with anyone in an SHTF situation with weekend hunters. It's unlikely we'd see anyone as these properties are MILES off county roads, deep in mountain rimmed canyons. Each property boasts groups of dozens to hundreds of Elk, Deer, Mule Deer as well as tons of varmints, some bears and mountain lions. So, it wouldn't need to be "productive" in a commercial sense, just productive insofar as getting enough meat to eat and storing it properly.

I'm wanting to learn a design program so that I could put all the things I've been thinking about into something I could share. I have some ideas that I think could be really unique, efficient and still be modern if the feces doesn't hit the forced draft ventilator..

Things like having a couple of greenhouses...one for aquaponics and fish farming/stocking and the other for growing herbs and getting seeds to bud before replanting to reduce seed loss to birds. Making use of canning techniques so that the small plots of land (probably no more than 10 acres since it'd have to be done really old school and that's hard by modern standards) can be rotated or rested. I understand it's also really smart to raise chickens for pest control, eggs, meat (adding fish and chicken diversifies the diet, which is important).

Lastly, I'm not under the impression that any of this is easy. I think it would be damned hard to near impossible. As a former engineer, I like to see if I can solve problems (as engineers are wont to do) and I find this problem fascinating.

 

[coconut]

Well, I did live in eastern PA for nearly 4 years including 4 winters in which some aspect of the winter was the "worst in 100 years". Coldest day, most days below freezing, most snow, most snow in a day/week/ ... you name it.

I. LOVED. IT. I love the sound of snow, the snap in the air and even though it'd whoop my ass, I never minded shoveling snow, scraping ice off the windows or any of that. Others hated it. I really didn't. My whole family is a bit different in that regard. We all know that we're in FL for a reason, but if we had our druthers, we'd be in a much colder climate.

You know what I hate? Always having a sweaty f'n crotch from the heat. I enjoy the heat, somewhat, but I can't enjoy it here because I'm allergic to mosquitoes. Dunno if it's a certain species of mosquito or a certain time in their development, but there are certain mosquitoes where one bite will give me a welt more than 3 inches across. I'm more allergic to them and dust mites than pure histomine. Did the allergy test and I reacted so strongly to the scratch test, they refused to do the under the skin test for fear of anaphylaxis.

Which makes Central Florida no end of fun...

Also, much of this is dreaming. I'm a service connected disabled vet that's super connected to the world in that I need plenty of meds regularly. Now, with lots of money, there are things I could do to mitigate that a lot, but I don't have it at this point.

If SHTF happened today, I'd be like the guy in Independence Day who just looks up, says, "oh, crap" and watches the car fall on him. So in that vein, this is just mentally preparing for a remote possibility.

As for geothermal heating, if you couple that with some pretty ingenuous commercial chillers, you can heat and cool a rather large home for about a quarter of the electricity. I was watching a youtube of an engineer who had experience in commercial spaces and I think he's really on to something. The cost is less as residential stuff doesn't scale and the smaller commercial stuff is actually CHEAPER, more efficient and better for things like radiant heat/cooling (in floor heat, basically). I'd really be trying to be efficient, even if I had a ton of budget because you have more excess capacity and can absorb things like panel failures if you're not pushing peak demand.

If the land is heavily timbered, even in a large structure, you can forgo multiple stories for a more "hacienda" style home and heat even large family areas with rocket mass heaters which are ridiculously efficient. That also allows for rudimentary "zone heating" which could be nice if it's clear and cold, but one side of the building has a nice southwestern exposure and doesn't need as much heat. Couple geothermal heating including radiant floor heating with rocket mass heaters and as long as the insulation is substantial, you could be good into super cold (-40F) temps. That also leaves the off-grid electrical system for lights, electrics and electronics, fans, geothermal pumps and outbuilding electricity and would reduce the overall system load dramatically. Moreover, building rocket mass heaters is cheap. Mostly, you need fire bricks, clay instead of cement for thin mortar, maybe need a 55g oil drum, but it can be built from natural earth, clay, hay and then steel ducting. I dunno total costs, but it's pretty cheap. As in maybe a couple hundred bucks unless you're making a really big or elaborate custom one. Moreover, especially in the dry winter season, the last thing one would want to do is be putting sparks or embers out the roof and rocket mass heaters burn so efficiently that there is almost no ash, no creosote and the temps leaving the flue to the outside is about 120 degrees or so as opposed to the required 350 degrees for a wood stove.

As for "productive", the land I'm looking at is REMOTE. I wouldn't be competing with anyone in an SHTF situation with weekend hunters. It's unlikely we'd see anyone as these properties are MILES off county roads, deep in mountain rimmed canyons. Each property boasts groups of dozens to hundreds of Elk, Deer, Mule Deer as well as tons of varmints, some bears and mountain lions. So, it wouldn't need to be "productive" in a commercial sense, just productive insofar as getting enough meat to eat and storing it properly.

I'm wanting to learn a design program so that I could put all the things I've been thinking about into something I could share. I have some ideas that I think could be really unique, efficient and still be modern if the feces doesn't hit the forced draft ventilator..

Things like having a couple of greenhouses...one for aquaponics and fish farming/stocking and the other for growing herbs and getting seeds to bud before replanting to reduce seed loss to birds. Making use of canning techniques so that the small plots of land (probably no more than 10 acres since it'd have to be done really old school and that's hard by modern standards) can be rotated or rested. I understand it's also really smart to raise chickens for pest control, eggs, meat (adding fish and chicken diversifies the diet, which is important).

Lastly, I'm not under the impression that any of this is easy. I think it would be damned hard to near impossible. As a former engineer, I like to see if I can solve problems (as engineers are wont to do) and I find this problem fascinating.

I didn't mean productive in a commercial sense. I meant being able to grow enough food to be able to eat in season with ample left over to can. The growing season is short. The sunlight is less. There is good reason why the region is sparsely populated. The only positive from my perspective is the flowing water you mentioned. If it is year round then for various reasons that is huge.

Geothermal can have tremendous upfront costs especially if drilling hard rock and setting wells. The cheapest is running pipe into an existing lake. There are still maintenance costs some of which are beyond the ability of the homeowner. Also the heat produced isn't a warm heat. Unless you have experienced it I can't really describe it. In my experience/opinion in order of warmth and comfort this is how the types of heating rate from best to worst:
Direct Solar(day only)
Wood or Coal stove
Steam radiator
Kerosene Heater
Natural gas/propane
Geothermal
Electric baseboard
Setting yourself on fire

If you are heating for women used to living in FL I suggest sticking with the first two on that list which also happen to be the most reliable and versatile options. Geothermal is never a sole source of heat unless you are in a true hot spot that produces hot water at depth. But even then the upfront costs and the maintenance costs are especially high. I heat with wood mostly and set my thermostat for my central nat. gas furnace at 60F. By filling the stove with enough wood to last the night and choking it all the way down overnight if really cold outside, below 20F my furnace might kick on by late morning. I usually get up at night and if necessary will put a piece or two in the stove if the room temp is getting near 60F. It rarely does. I live in Zone 7a. My sister in law has a state of the art multi-well hard rock geothermal system that does work very well for cooling but in the winter it is cold. Now a lot of that is how the house is designed to such as 8' vs. 10' ceilings or worse vaulted ceilings.

Rocket mass heaters are intriguing and my son is planning to build one after speaking with our friend in AK who is familiar with them. Of course our friend was born and raised in AK and not on the coast either. His tolerance to the cold is quite high so his idea of what is acceptable might differ from that of someone from TN. I've already got some ss pipe for the project.

I don't know about the aquaponics but my suspicion is the cost of heating would be too high. A small attached greenhouse would be useful to start seeds and get transplants ready for when the overnight temps are warm enough to plant outside. Outside you will be looking at short season varieties for most everything.

I get that this is a spit balling exercise for you (and to some degree myself since there are things I still want to do) and I find it fascinating that your posts make me think. Thank you for that!

 

[fearsomefour]

If you want supplies just set up your sniper hide overlooking the local gun range or store. It'll be a target rich environment of unprepared people collecting all the supplies for you to take.

Sinister......I like it.

 

[fearsomefour]

Just out of curiosity has anyone actually been in combat? Has anyone actually killed another human being? If you haven't let me tell you it's not like the movies in any way shape or form. For the average American killing is hard. It's not like shooting deer or even bear. For most of us it's something that will haunt you for the rest of your life.

Surviving in the world you describe, is not about winning firefights. The key is not to be found in the first place. Hone your field craft, learn to blend in and not be seen or heard. Learn how to move quietly. Hone your hand to hand combat skills. Using a gun is the option of last resort and even if you survive the firefight, the danger will increase exponentially. Once you fire your weapon you are exposed. Silencers are a myth for movies.

Do you know what true assassins use if they use a gun? They use a .22 caliber pistol (luger action) firing a .22 short. The round is subsonic and with a luger, when the bullet reaches the end of the barrel the chamber pressure is zero. The noise of the action cycling is about the same as the report. The aim point is the occipital lobe and death is instantaneous.

Killing a human being is a horrific thing. Not something to be assumed or taken lightly. It's why I've decided that if things ever got that bad I wouldn't want to live in that kind of world with that kind of baggage, I've got enough. Life at any cost may not be life at all.

It's a personal decision but the consequences are dire.....just something to consider.

Well said.
My goal with the bit of prepping I have done is to be able to sit and not leave my location for several weeks at a minimum.
Water being the hardest part of that scenario.....assuming water was cut off.
Hard to find a place where you can be hidden away really if there was a long term situation. Being lights out at night and quiet during the day, even if you had resources, is something a lot of folks wouldn’t deal with well I think.
Who knows? I’ve done my little prepping with a natural disaster situation in mind, not societal collapse.
I did design a simple wildfire suppression system for my property in Ca wine country....again, just common sense with how things are out there.
No house to put it on so done know if it would be up to code....don’t care really. Would do it anyway.

 

[RamFan503]

It can come in the 20", 22" or 24" threaded fluted barrel. I'd go with the 24" barrel, a Thunder Beast Ultra 9 suppressor so that I could hunt without hearing protection and a Nightforce ATACR F1 7-35x56mm scope. I know it's a bit weighty, but it beats carrying two guns. I like the longer barrel for greater muzzle velocity and accuracy. It's not major, but when it comes to a clean kill, I'll take any advantage. Rig like that can hold 20 rounds AND be pushed out to 1500m with the heavier round staying supersonic until 1100m, iirc. I also realized with the 143gr Hornady ammo, it's weighty enough to deal with everything I'd see... apparently the Swedes have been using 6.5variants for 100 years or so for their biggest game with no problems, so no reason other than fun to look at a .338 Lapua, .338 Norma or the .416 Barrett. Not that it wouldn't be fun to set up a 2500m range, tho...hehehehe.

Looks super clean and having a "universal" platform means more training time on it...which is really what matters as a good marksman with a plain jane Remington 700 in .308 will smoke a guy who has the latest Steyr Carbon CL2 or a custom rig from a place like Gunwerks. So yeah, planning on lots and lots of training.

Anyway, I've looked at more stuff, but I'll leave it at this for now.

And @bluecoconuts you were totally right. The 6.5 Creedmoor is the way to go. MUCH better ballistics than the .308 AND SOCOM snipers are moving to it this year if they haven't already so there should be a bunch more availability in the next few years. That said, I did read from multiple sources that it's very important to get a purpose built hunting round and I agree. I saw a 1k batch of Hornady Precision Hunter 6.5 Creedmoor 143gr ELD-X which has a ballistic coefficient of approx 0.625 for $1.14/round on Ammoseek.com. They don't carry 6.5 Creedmoor on Bulkammo.com, but I expect that to change once the 6.5 Creed is fully adopted into the US Military. It's already a pretty big round among Euros and in Aussieland... Also, while it's not cheap, but it's not $4-7/round, either...

Considering even with I was plinking with .22lr ammo, I made every round count in that "you play how you practice" so I never, EVER just threw rounds down range. For me, the juice is in the practice, not listening to an expensive noisemaker. Others dig it and to each their own, but I'm not as worried about ammo price as some, even with an AR10 rig vs a bolt action rig. To further illustrate this point, I see young guys doing donuts in a parking lot and my first thought is that they're wasting expensive rubber on going in very small circles...and it stinks something awful. I don't get it, but again... to each their own.

Anyway, was wondering what you or anyone else thought.

I have to ask Mack. Have you ever actually done any big game hunting? Especially in the West or areas even similar to the Rockies? I know you are not a spring chicken anymore - no offense. I am in pretty good shape and have hunted all over the West.

Here's a real life hunting experience and it is anything but unusual. Wake up at 4 have a quick breakfast and head out by 4:30. Make some cow calls and some quick squeals with the bugle. Hear a bull bugle back in the distance and start your hunt. Weave your way through the timber while making sure to not step on a dry twig. After about a half hour or so, stop and do another quick squeal and hope for a response and that you haven't already scared off your target. Hear a whistle back and start heading toward it again while bellying over wind blown timber. Finally reach where you can see your target at about 1:00pm and it is twitchy as hell and not about to give up a clean shot. Finally coax him in with some cow calls only to have him get ten yards away through the trees and understory and then wind you so you can watch him disappear in a half second.

So about 8 hours to get an almost shot and this was while carrying a long bow weighing about a tenth of that rifle you showed. Oh... and BTW... We didn't see another hunter all day so we weren't competing for animals either.

I realize for someone trained like Blue, the extra weight of the rifle is not a big deal and if you practice and hike with your rifle, you could probably get to where it doesn't matter either. But that rifle is extremely impractical for anything but clear shot, long range shots on the smaller "big game". If you are going after elk, moose, bear, large Muleys, a 6.5 is undersized. Also, if you are talking about the Rockies or out West, unless you are hunting desert areas, most of your shots will be under 300 yards and likely under 200. That rifle may double as a self defense weapon but is practically useless for harvest purposes. And a starting point of 7x for a hunting scope in the areas you're talking is IMO a mistake as well.

Unless and until, some zombie apocalypse happens or we get attacked by a foreign invader, you will be unlikely to ever get any real benefit out of that gun. Most states limit the # of rounds you are allowed to have in your weapon while hunting. Guns get muddy and I can't imagine trying to clean crap out of that one. Fancy semi-autos take more maintenance and tweaking whereas a bolt action is almost infallible and only requires basic cleaning which is very easily done, even out in the field if you have to. I don't know what that gun weighs, but my Sako 300UM is considered a heavy gun and I'm going to guess it weighs less than that thing. I can tell you that after carrying it around, over, and through the woods, weight matters. I've never ended a hunt because of the weight but the neck pinch and shoulder pains made me pine for a lighter gun. For Pete's sake, I would never add crap to the end of the barrel because I was worried about noise.

As for ear protection while out on a hunt? How many shots are you planning on taking? Hearing protection is for the bench. Frankly, I suppose soldiers wear some sort of noise canceling gear but.... Less is better when hunting and you want to be able to hear every twig snap or small chirp an animal is making.

Next, with all you're talking about spending on your rifle and the bells and whistles, etc... probably the best thing you could do to make shooting more reasonable, increase your accuracy, and improve your results, is to load your own rounds. It doesn't take much room, it makes rounds way cheaper, and you can dial in those rounds that hit the sweet spots for your rifle. Rifles all have certain loads they love to shoot. I load everything from 125 grain on up to 220 grain rounds for my UM. The game dictates the round. But I have loaded and bench shot a minimum of 20 rounds of everything I loaded and then narrowed it down and shot more until I figured out the best loads for my particular rifle. If you are actually going to do what you say, you will have plenty of time to work on loads and it is a great past time for the whole family. It actually is fun and you can't tell me this ain't purdy.

Good looking rifle, it’ll definitely get the job done with what you need. The weight is always a trade off, but I didn’t have any issues with weight personally. I know some guys complain about having to ruck with heavier weight, but that’s part of the gig.

SOCOM has already moved to it for a number of platforms, and continue to adopt more, it just a good round and cost is already bringing it down to or below .308 rounds, which is even better. I think you’d really like it. Cost always sucks, but I like to say, buy once, cry once.

I get teased all the time with how heavy my main hunting rifle is. I will say that when I bring out my little custom 30-06, it is way more pleasant to hike around with. Now you are way younger than either me or Mack. I'm guessing weight is going to be more of an issue for him but I'm only assuming. Maybe he's a work out warrior and the point is moot.

As far as spending on a weapon, yeah, I agree. I don't buy cheap when it comes to my weapons. When I bought my Sako and Swarovski scope, I cried. ONCE! I almost don't even bring out my other rifles (except my ARs and Mini14). I can hunt cayotes, pigs, deer, antelope, bear, elk, etc... all with the same rifle with simply changing the round and a few clicks on my scope. It is stainless matte with a synthetic stock, and three lug bolt so it is stout, sleek (important for slipping through understory), and easy to clean.

Mountain land isn't productive. Agriculturally far less productive than MN. Hunting for a family is not that sustainable when others are doing the same. Snowed in and having to go out and hunt? I suggest you read about REAL homesteading in the Rockies. Real as in not a multimillionaire who can have something built to spec. and can hunt with a helicopter and has fuel stored for years of use by all his vehicles. Geothermally heat your mountain home? You will be burning wood unless you find coal. Remember what I wrote about trees in MN? IT IS WORSE IN THE ROCKIES. There may be lots of trees but their heating value is terrible which means more trees and work needed. You should spend a week in winter with ever increasing snow pack. Tampa would look better and better.

Going to have to disagree. The areas he is talking about has plenty of hot burning wood. I know several people in Montana and Colorado that heat their homes almost exclusively with wood and could all year if they wanted to. But turning up a thermostat is easier so....

Also, if you are not planning on great harvests of heat loving stuff like tomatoes and a few others, you can easily grow sustainability foods on only a few acres of flat, open land depending on numbers of family members and size.

As to sustainability hunting, you're pretty much right but maybe you could do it only as long as there is some sort of apocalypse and regulations are gone. You might even be able to do it if you have enough land, land owner preference tags, damage permits, apply for every hunt, are successful on every hunt, etc. People also look at a big ole elk and think you're getting cattle type meat production out of it. Yeah... not so much and I dress and butcher my own animals.

 

[coconut]

Going to have to disagree. The areas he is talking about has plenty of hot burning wood. I know several people in Montana and Colorado that heat their homes almost exclusively with wood and could all year if they wanted to. But turning up a thermostat is easier so....

Also, if you are not planning on great harvests of heat loving stuff like tomatoes and a few others, you can easily grow sustainability foods on only a few acres of flat, open land depending on numbers of family members and size.

As to sustainability hunting, you're pretty much right but maybe you could do it only as long as there is some sort of apocalypse and regulations are gone. You might even be able to do it if you have enough land, land owner preference tags, damage permits, apply for every hunt, are successful on every hunt, etc. People also look at a big ole elk and think you're getting cattle type meat production out of it. Yeah... not so much and I dress and butcher my own animals.

Well all wood burns hot. Heat value refers to the total heat produced. Mountains out west (from my very limited experience out there) are mostly conifers and aspen. Neither are good heat value. Yes they will burn and produce good heat but not for long. Depending upon the conifer you are looking at about 25% the heat value of the better oaks or hickories. That means for the same heating you have to cut, haul, split and load into the stove 4X the wood. There are some species that are better but with the winter in the CO mountains you're talking about a lot of wood even if zone heating.

I don't know what you mean by sustainability foods. Is that like alfalfa sprouts and peas and the cruciferous veggies? Doubt you would get two crops in without some luck. Warm season crops would have to be less than 80 days and that is with starting seeds indoors I would think. Where I live we plant tomatoes that give until a hard freeze for eating fresh and plant others for canning that give all in a very short period for canning. Plus the threat of an early hard freeze or a late hard freeze is greater in the CO Rockies. I know there are a number of tomato varieties from Russia available now. Other veggies we plant generally give until multiple frosts or a hard freeze. So eating fresh for a about half the summer while canning as picked even if just 7 quarts.

About the rifle and hunting for food, I think a shotgun is a good idea. Especially a rifle/shotgun combo.

 

[RamFan503]

Well all wood burns hot. Heat value refers to the total heat produced. Mountains out west (from my very limited experience out there) are mostly conifers and aspen. Neither are good heat value. Yes they will burn and produce good heat but not for long. Depending upon the conifer you are looking at about 25% the heat value of the better oaks or hickories. That means for the same heating you have to cut, haul, split and load into the stove 4X the wood. There are some species that are better but with the winter in the CO mountains you're talking about a lot of wood even if zone heating.

Many woods burn hotter than others. Citrus - for example burns wicked hot. Aspens are fairly worthless for heating. Conifers vary considerably. Certain firs and spruce are pretty good, consistent burning woods. You can't really just say it takes 4x the wood. Besides, you get a shit ton of firewood out of one fir.

I don't know what you mean by sustainability foods. Is that like alfalfa sprouts and peas and the cruciferous veggies? Doubt you would get two crops in without some luck. Warm season crops would have to be less than 80 days and that is with starting seeds indoors I would think. Where I live we plant tomatoes that give until a hard freeze for eating fresh and plant others for canning that give all in a very short period for canning. Plus the threat of an early hard freeze or a late hard freeze is greater in the CO Rockies. I know there are a number of tomato varieties from Russia available now. Other veggies we plant generally give until multiple frosts or a hard freeze. So eating fresh for a about half the summer while canning as picked even if just 7 quarts.

Sustainability foods as in foods that you can eat when fresh and can or put up for later. There are lots of highly productive foods you can grow and also mix with wild meats to make soups and other meals such as meat loaf in a jar.

About the rifle and hunting for food, I think a shotgun is a good idea. Especially a rifle/shotgun combo.

Meh. Rifle/shotgun combos are like buying an Enduro instead of a street bike. Combo rifles are not really very good for either birds or mammals. They just aren't. I've got lots of guns and have hunted a pretty good variety of game. I've shot combos as well as most types of firearms. No thanks.

 

[coconut]

Many woods burn hotter than others. Citrus - for example burns wicked hot. Aspens are fairly worthless for heating. Conifers vary considerably. Certain firs and spruce are pretty good, consistent burning woods. You can't really just say it takes 4x the wood. Besides, you get a shit ton of firewood out of one fir.
Sustainability foods as in foods that you can eat when fresh and can or put up for later. There are lots of highly productive foods you can grow and also mix with wild meats to make soups and other meals such as meat loaf in a jar.

Meh. Rifle/shotgun combos are like buying an Enduro instead of a street bike. Combo rifles are not really very good for either birds or mammals. They just aren't. I've got lots of guns and have hunted a pretty good variety of game. I've shot combos as well as most types of firearms. No thanks.

Well we must disagree on just about everything.

 

[RamFan503]

Well we must disagree on just about everything.

Ha! Which is fine. To each his own. I always tell people as well not to buy something I like. Buy something THEY like. Doesn't mean I won't give my two cents.

 

[RamFan503]

Hey @Mackeyser - another thing to think about on scopes is light gathering ability and field of vision. A great scope is huge when it comes to acquiring your target. I like the objective size on the scope you showed. But I can tell you that my Swarovski is night and day (literally early or late in the day) compared to scopes with the same objective and not the quality of glass. Almost every scope looks great when you are in bright light. Try to find a way to look through scopes in low, dull light for comparisons. And a larger objective will generally result in more light gathering but that is also greatly affected by glass quality. Different manufacturers will have optics that have a different field of vision with the same objective. Field of vision is generally stated and spec'd out at 100 yards. Being that your field of vision draws down as you increase magnification, this is really important when choosing a scope. Keep in mind of course that I'm a hunter and @bluecoconuts no doubt has more info on scopes more geared toward combat situations.

 

[Mackeyser]

Yeah, the properties I've looked at have LOTS of birch and oak as well as pine. Plenty of hardwoods. Also, I'm not looking at 40 acre spots. This is dreamland. Smallest spot I looked at is 2k acres. So yeah, PLENTY of hardwood.

All this is a dream, but yeah.

As for the weight, I've always moved heavy, since I was kid with a 30# backpack (this was in jrhs. I like to be prepared).

There are ways to mitigate weight... The Monowalker FatMate is one way https://monowalker.com/?v=7516fd43adaa

As far as a hunt, I'm pretty ingenious about rigging stuff and I can think of several ways to mitigate the weight penalty of a hunting rig that don't restrict the firing position or add significantly to one's profile so that one's crashing into branches and making the whole exercise moot.

But yeah, I'd rather work up to being able to carry what I want and once I get to working out, I always pick coaches who will tell me to stop because I don't on my own and really, REALLY overdo it.

I'm heavy and out of shape right now because I've had basically constant migraines for the last 12 weeks, though the contiguous one was 6 weeks and ended 6 weeks ago, I've still been having bad daily ones and need to see the neurologist on when it's safe to exercise as my family has a bad history of stroke, so... stuck waiting while ballooning... ugh.

I'm also really patient. If I were able to do this, I'd be walking 5-10 miles on the property every day just to learn it. I'd be working it, maintaining the streams, getting the farming area set up, getting the buildings built, bringing out power and internet because SHTF ain't happened, yet and I'm not relying on satellite internet... and I'm GONNA see our Rams play. I mean...we got Super Bowls to win!!!! ARRRRGH!!!

As for the scope, that Nightforce is one of the best rated hunting scopes by hunters out there. Actually, other than specific sniping missions, most operators and former operators who post on this stuff prefer either fixed magnification or smaller magnifications with less change. The reasons are specific and technical and not germane here (@bluecoconuts could go into more detail if he chose to), but to be ethical, I want the biggest, brightest piece of glass I can get to ensure I'm putting that animal down quickly and with as little trauma as possible. The Swarovski is also highly rated and, honestly, all this projection. Once I get my hands and eyes on them, I could change my mind.

I'm trusting @bluecoconuts on the caliber. Swedes have been using the 6.5 to hunt moose for 100 years, so it's plenty, especially the Hornady Precision Hunter 143gr ELD-X. Reviews on that round show TONS of folks loving that round up to and including bull elk. I hear you about manual loading. I'm SURE I'd be doing it because...if it's better, I'm a sucker for giving myself more to do.

As for the distance, I'd also want to set up a long rifle range (one property could legit do a 2500m range, for example) as I find that fascinating.

That said, when it comes to guns, if I were able to do this, I'd have a walk-in closet filled with rifles of all setups and calibers (especially so that I could host hunts and not force folks to travel with their guns which can be problematic) and I'm sure I'd have a favorite bolt action rifle.

 

[Mackeyser]

To give y'all an example of a dream property I keep coming back to...

Miller Lake Ranch - Sold - Montana - Hall and Hall

10,000± acre alpine ranch owns 10,000 foot peaks. Timber, lakes and creek in private mountain valley. Wolves, bears, elk, deer, sheep, moose and cutthroat t...

hallhall.com

"I'll move to Montana...and I'll drive a pickup truck. I'll raise rabbits and marry a round American woman and she'll cook them for me"

Love the Hall and Hall site.

there are a few in CO as well, but this is the one I keep coming back to and dreaming about. I'll post the CO ones if anyone's interested.

Of course, I'd spend weeks there in the winter to ensure a) I could breathe, b) I'm still okay with the cold and c) if I like the area. Plenty of times a place looks great in pics, but isn't so nice in person, for whatever reason. CO is an easy sale for the wife because we Honeymooned in Boulder, CO 30 years ago this October and we drove out to Nederland and Vail and toured around a little bit and just loved it. Also, no, not interested in Boulder now...for all the obvious reasons and I'm a lefty (lefties and righties tend to have a lot in common when it comes to the entitled...)

But yeah. The CO properties are likely easier to live in year round as there are more amenities closer, but you can't get a better gun situation than Montana, even considering Missoula.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Just out of curiosity has anyone actually been in combat? Has anyone actually killed another human being? If you haven't let me tell you it's not like the movies in any way shape or form. For the average American killing is hard. It's not like shooting deer or even bear. For most of us it's something that will haunt you for the rest of your life.

Surviving in the world you describe, is not about winning firefights. The key is not to be found in the first place. Hone your field craft, learn to blend in and not be seen or heard. Learn how to move quietly. Hone your hand to hand combat skills. Using a gun is the option of last resort and even if you survive the firefight, the danger will increase exponentially. Once you fire your weapon you are exposed. Silencers are a myth for movies.

Do you know what true assassins use if they use a gun? They use a .22 caliber pistol (luger action) firing a .22 short. The round is subsonic and with a luger, when the bullet reaches the end of the barrel the chamber pressure is zero. The noise of the action cycling is about the same as the report. The aim point is the occipital lobe and death is instantaneous.

Killing a human being is a horrific thing. Not something to be assumed or taken lightly. It's why I've decided that if things ever got that bad I wouldn't want to live in that kind of world with that kind of baggage, I've got enough. Life at any cost may not be life at all.

It's a personal decision but the consequences are dire.....just something to consider.

Killing someone isn’t something that shouldn’t be done lightly, but if it needs to happen it’ll need to happen. I wouldn’t worry about that until something actually pops off, because otherwise it’s silly to let that bother you in my opinion. Prepping and having supplies to live more off the grid, and be more self sustainable isn’t a bad thing though.

Prepping because you want to survive long enough to kill someone (basically what you see on those prepper shows) is another story, but I don’t think that’s the intention of anyone here, at least not in my opinion.

Personally I think if a kill is clean (legitimate) one shouldn’t lose sleep. Fact is the world is a better place without some people on it.

 

[oldnotdead]

Can we agree that shots carry a long way. Anyone that hears shots will think:

1. People with guns are threats. Better to be the hunter rather than the hunted looking over your shoulder all the time.

2. People have guns...I want them.

3. If people have guns they have supplies....I want them.

There is no such thing as a clean human kill. Also no one is factoring in that other survivors will be looking for preppers because they didn't prepare. Not for friendly visits but to take what they have. Farming makes you a target and nails you down to a locale. Natural food can be found if you know how to do it. No one is talking about drones. Someone looking for preppers will have drones to use to search for them. A nice cabin with crops will stand out and become a target.

Personally I think if a kill is clean (legitimate) one shouldn’t lose sleep. Fact is the world is a better place without some people on it.

Hmm really? This is exactly what I'm talking about. I hope no one ever looks at you and thinks that.

 

[CeeZar]

Mac, as far as shooting is concerned there's no time like now to start to learn. Forget about the dreamland Wilson Combat Creedmoor for now and get yourself a Rem 700 or Savage in .308 with a decent scope like a Vortex that won't break the bank. You'll want something in .308 regardless of what dream rig you end up with because .308 ammo will be more available and more than enough to take most game. Worst case, you will have an excellent rifle for barter should the need come up.

Get yourself some training. There is a great facility in north Florida. This place is gear towards training tactical teams but they have plenty of civilian courses including three levels of precision rifle, medical, wilderness survival, escape/evasion, etc.

https://www.asymmetricsolutionsusa.com/facilities/north-florida/

Time to spend some time training instead of surfing the internet...

 

[CeeZar]

Killing someone isn’t something that shouldn’t be done lightly, but if it needs to happen it’ll need to happen. I wouldn’t worry about that until something actually pops off, because otherwise it’s silly to let that bother you in my opinion. Prepping and having supplies to live more off the grid, and be more self sustainable isn’t a bad thing though.

Prepping because you want to survive long enough to kill someone (basically what you see on those prepper shows) is another story, but I don’t think that’s the intention of anyone here, at least not in my opinion.

Personally I think if a kill is clean (legitimate) one shouldn’t lose sleep. Fact is the world is a better place without some people on it.

If the shit hits the fan to the degree that food is hard to come by and folks are bugging out to Montana, taking a life in defense of yourself and family will be be a lot easier mentally than one would think. If you don't think you can get to that mindset, you're better off in a refugee camp.

 

[CeeZar]

Mac, as far as shooting is concerned there's no time like now to start to learn. Forget about the dreamland Wilson Combat Creedmoor for now and get yourself a Rem 700 or Savage in .308 with a decent scope like a Vortex that won't break the bank. You'll want something in .308 regardless of what dream rig you end up with because .308 ammo will be more available and more than enough to take most game. Worst case, you will have an excellent rifle for barter should the need come up.

Get yourself some training. There is a great facility in north Florida. This place is gear towards training tactical teams but they have plenty of civilian courses including three levels of precision rifle, medical, wilderness survival, escape/evasion, etc.

https://www.asymmetricsolutionsusa.com/facilities/north-florida/

Time to spend some time training instead of surfing the internet...

Even a better starting place may be getting a Ruger 10/22 and modding it to a liberty training rifle. You'll want a .22 LR anyway and you can learn the basics of marksmanship for cheap. From there you can get a .308 and get more training.

https://appleseedinfo.org/

M1 Carbine Replica Ruger 10/22 Stock and Tribute Version 2.0 - Includes TWO Handguards!

Transform your Ruger 10/22 with the M1 Carbine Replica Stock. Tribute Version 2.0 includes two handguards, offering classic M1 style with modern functionality.

www.eabco.net

 

[RamFan503]

Personally I think if a kill is clean (legitimate) one shouldn’t lose sleep. Fact is the world is a better place without some people on it.

So you're saying that if a Whiner or shecock fan walks in front of your scope - take the shot. Got it.