How Many Wrs In This Draft Are Potentially Better Than Rams Wrs?

[jrry32]

I wasn't trying to say Lee was a TD machine because of his hands. All these guys will enter the NFL with the need to improve at their weakness very few are NFL ready right out of the draft. Ball catching technique route running can be taught. Speed can't, there are a lot of wr's in the draft that intrigue me I hope we get a good one. My like of Lee comes from familiarity with Lee being a So. Cal kid and now with him dropping because of injury and a bad QB situation you may be able to get a steal. Whereas I believe that Evans ascent is a little inflated. EX: Purifoy was #1 CB a couple months ago now he is barely top 10 I would love to get value like that later. Always fun talking football with the boys on the board. Go Rams

Ball catching technique is one of the hardest things to improve. Evans ascent isn't inflated. IMO, it might be a little deflated due to people questioning his speed. I've liked the kid for awhile. He's easily worth a top 15 pick to me.

Lee will be interesting to see and I am not counting him out...but I just don't see him as a special player. Think he's more along the lines of Jeremy Maclin.

 

[rdlkgliders]

In two years? I'd say he's trending up right now.

He's doubled his snap total from 2012.
Doubled his yardage.
Upped his yards/reception by 2.5 yards per.
Upped his catch percentage by 13%

Everyone knows it's going to take him some time to get it, because everyone associated with his development warned us head of time that it would. Fisher, Snead, Sherman. They all said it was going to require patience.

Is this someone you'd give up on after his third year or call 'dumb as a stump'?

Spoiler

That's Vincent Jackson.

His developmental similarity to VJ through 2 years is promising, if it continues through 3 that would be nice through 4 Special.

 

[RamsOfCastamere]

I also really only want Watkins. Quick could still prove to be better than any of the WR's mentioned under Watkins. Quick could have a very nice season next year. This is how I see it potentially shaping up...

1A (Trade back and pick up a second rounder from the Browns... hopefully we get two ones) Watkins
1B Robinson
2A OG
2B CB
3 FS
4 Center
5 QB
6 OG
7 RB

Something like that...

I agree with everything here.

 

[Thordaddy]

Noen of them has caught a ball in the NFL

 

[Rams and Gators]

In two years? I'd say he's trending up right now.

He's doubled his snap total from 2012.
Doubled his yardage.
Upped his yards/reception by 2.5 yards per.
Upped his catch percentage by 13%

Everyone knows it's going to take him some time to get it, because everyone associated with his development warned us head of time that it would. Fisher, Snead, Sherman. They all said it was going to require patience.

Is this someone you'd give up on after his third year or call 'dumb as a stump'?

Spoiler

That's Vincent Jackson.

No doubt a stupid question on my part, but why always the Vincent Jackson comparison? Just a quick search shows that since 1990 there were 20 players who's first two seasons were 'similar' (within 50 yards either way for each season) to Brian Quick, why is Quick never compared with say Larry Foster or Roscoe Parrish? Of those 20 only 4 would go on to have an 800+ yard season: Riley Cooper best of 835, Chris Calloway best of 849, Darrius Heyward-Bey best of 975 and Derrick Mason best of 1303. But he's never compared with all 20, just Jackson?

 

[brokeu91]

No doubt a stupid question on my part, but why always the Vincent Jackson comparison? Just a quick search shows that since 1990 there were 20 players who's first two seasons were 'similar' (within 50 yards either way for each season) to Brian Quick, why is Quick never compared with say Larry Foster or Roscoe Parrish? Of those 20 only 4 would go on to have an 800+ yard season: Riley Cooper best of 835, Chris Calloway best of 849, Darrius Heyward-Bey best of 975 and Derrick Mason best of 1303. But he's never compared with all 20, just Jackson?

I hear what you're saying, it's because there are a lot of similarities between Jackson and Quick. Both have very similar athletic skills-great size, great speed, very good ability to change direction. Both came from small colleges, and both had very little WR experience prior to coming to the NFL. That's why they get compared so often. I don't necessarily believe Quick will end up becoming VJ, but that is who he is often compared to for those very reasons. The other WR you mentioned do not have the same amount of comparable traits/playing history

 

[max]

No doubt a stupid question on my part, but why always the Vincent Jackson comparison? Just a quick search shows that since 1990 there were 20 players who's first two seasons were 'similar' (within 50 yards either way for each season) to Brian Quick, why is Quick never compared with say Larry Foster or Roscoe Parrish? Of those 20 only 4 would go on to have an 800+ yard season: Riley Cooper best of 835, Chris Calloway best of 849, Darrius Heyward-Bey best of 975 and Derrick Mason best of 1303. But he's never compared with all 20, just Jackson?

It's because that's the party line. Snead drafted him and he is doing his best to paint a rosy picture. If you talk to an unbiased scout or talent evaluator you will get a different view of Quick. Dan Shonka told me Quick is not a starting caliber WR in the NFL, he's a 4th or 5th WR and he thinks the Rams will keep him around because Quick knows the system and can block.

We are all Rams fans here, but I try not to wear the rose colored glass all the time. I don't agree with Snead's statement that I'm happy with our 5 guys. I'm not happy at all with Givens, Quick, and Pettis. Those guys are subpar. I do like Bailey and Tavon, but that's not enough to be happy.

D'Marco Farr said that he was told by a Seahawk DB after the game in Seattle (I think it was Chancellor) that the Rams WRs weren't much good except for Bailey. He said they all talked a lot but did nothing. He though Bailey was tough and was gonna be good. The others, nope.

I started this thread to trigger some discussion on just how good our WRs are in comparison to how good the draft class is. And then draw from that if we could still significantly improve our WR corp by drafting a guy later in the first round or early 2nd round.

What I got was a barrage of homer posts defending our WRs. And for some reason they ignored the fact that our leading WR, Givens, had only 569 yards receiving. Consider the fact that 57 WRs in the NFL had more than that. Just think about that for a minute. 57 other WRs had more production than any of our WRs. That means that on average almost every other team in the NFL had 2 guys that were better than anyone on our team. And we are supposed to be happy with that?

I'm looking for just one unbiased poster to respond to my original post and list the WRs that they think would be a significant get for us (other than the obvious Watkins) and if we could get him late in the first or early in the 2nd round.

 

[brokeu91]

Max, could can take this as a bashing post, but don't. I just don't totally agree with your premise. I'm not happy with our WR as a group either, but drafting a WR at #2 may not be all that helpful either

First of all, our WR core is so young we have no idea what we have. Let's face it WR take a year or two to develop. Quick was going to need at least two years. Not saying he's the answer, but to say he's never going to be good, because of what one scout said, means nothing. What were scouts saying about Vincent Jackson after his second year? What about after his third year? It wasn't really until year 4 that VJ really took off.

Bailey and Austin are both rookies, really have no idea what they will be or become. I do like both of those guys, but who knows really. Austin was coming on at the end and was flashing that special playmaking ability that he has. Bailey looked good as the season ended, but still wasn't setting the world on fire.

Austin Pettis is what he is, a good possession WR, a #4 WR who can get the first down when needed. Right now he's thrust into starting because we don't have much on top.

Givens did have a sophomore slump. There was a lot more tape on him, and once teams took away the long route, he was not as good of a route runner to make them pay for that. I think if he works on his route running he could become a very good WR in this league. He may never be a pro-bowler, but he may be a very good #2

Let's play devils advocate and say you're right, we do need another WR. Let's say the Rams draft Watkins. Now what? We sill need to develop him. He won't help us this year that much, since WR really need a year or two to develop. Hell, Isaac Bruce didn't do much his rookie year. Holt did OK his rookie season, but he had Bruce to teach him, and Faulk, Bruce, and Az-Hakim taking pressure off of him. Watkins will never have that. He won't have a veteran presence to show him the ropes. He won't have Faulk to be the focal point of the opposing defense and someone like Bruce to take on double teams. We can draft Watklins, but even if he ends up becoming Torry Holt (and yes I do think he can become an elite WR), it won't help us next year.

The Rams really need a veteran WR like Bruce, who was hard working and can teach the position. That could be the biggest thing to help this offense next year. Not necessarily drafting Watkins.

Also I could give a crap what Farr said some Seachicken says about our WR. That is what Farr basically told us. He may have also interviewed another Seachicken or other opposing player who said Austin, Givens are going to become superstars, but didn't tell us because he has his own agenda of wanting the Rams to draft a WR

 

[Alan]

max having problems with his vision:
I'm looking for just one unbiased poster to respond to my original post and list the WRs that they think would be a significant get for us (other than the obvious Watkins) and if we could get him late in the first or early in the 2nd round.

Not reading my posts anymore max? I'll save you the trouble of reading them again by giving you a quick condensed version of what I said in one of them.

I think all the WRs in your original list have greater potential that any of our WRs except Quick. Now quit whining. :wink:

 

[Thordaddy]

Ignoring the "homer " comment beyond noting it ,I gotta ask if Sam was rounding into like the #2 rated passer in his last three games ,who was he throwing the ball too?
JMO it's not fair to criticise the recs. based on a whole season unless they are being projected with the same passer. what sort of stats would Jimmy Graham have this year if every half Brees played this year was like yesterdays which IMO was sub Clemmens.

I am NOT AT ALL to the point that I believe people are making this team based on Fishers ego

 

[max]

Not reading my posts anymore max? I'll save you the trouble of reading them again by giving you a quick condensed version of what I said in one of them.

I think all the WRs in your original list have greater potential that any of our WRs except Quick. Now quit whining. :wink:

OK. I'm done whining. Good to see you're thinking clearly.

 

[CoachO]

the biggest issue I have with your premise, is when you start quoting stats to support this "argument", you lose all credibility. You are trying to compare the Rams 2013 situation to those around the league, (57 other WRs had more yards than Givens), when the reality is, this team just didn't throw the ball enough to fairly compare any WR stats with others around the league.

And to use these stats to somehow evaluate the position, is even more naïve. But to your OP, lets assume they insert Watkins into THIS situation. How much of an impact do you honestly think he has, given a backup QB being the one who is in control of the offense? By your logic, just having Watkins as a "true #1" (a term I cant stand btw) would have been enough to transform Clemens into being a better passer? Or would have given Schottenheimer enough confidence to call more downfield passing plays in any of the final 9 games of the season?

Sorry, I just can't buy into to that logic. And ignoring that impact on the "stats" of the current WR is just trying to justify your argument.

 

[-X-]

No doubt a stupid question on my part, but why always the Vincent Jackson comparison? Just a quick search shows that since 1990 there were 20 players who's first two seasons were 'similar' (within 50 yards either way for each season) to Brian Quick, why is Quick never compared with say Larry Foster or Roscoe Parrish? Of those 20 only 4 would go on to have an 800+ yard season: Riley Cooper best of 835, Chris Calloway best of 849, Darrius Heyward-Bey best of 975 and Derrick Mason best of 1303. But he's never compared with all 20, just Jackson?

Two reasons, really. One, that's who Snead said Brian Quick reminded him of when he started scouting him years ago. And because Vincent Jackson (similar ht and wt) has turned out to be a pretty dominant receiver in his own right. And finally, for the purposes of trying to highlight what Quick could become, I'd rather not use receivers who didn't become anything. That's what I'm arguing against.

 

[Alan]

CoachO joining the fray:
the biggest issue I have with your premise, is when you start quoting stats to support this "argument", you lose all credibility. You are trying to compare the Rams 2013 situation to those around the league, (57 other WRs had more yards than Givens), when the reality is, this team just didn't throw the ball enough to fairly compare any WR stats with others around the league.

And to use these stats to somehow evaluate the position, is even more naïve. But to your OP, lets assume they insert Watkins into THIS situation. How much of an impact do you honestly think he has, given a backup QB being the one who is in control of the offense? By your logic, just having Watkins as a "true #1" (a term I cant stand btw) would have been enough to transform Clemens into being a better passer? Or would have given Schottenheimer enough confidence to call more downfield passing plays in any of the final 9 games of the season?

Sorry, I just can't buy into to that logic. And ignoring that impact on the "stats" of the current WR is just trying to justify your argument.

From one angle I can agree with you about the stats. Although saying things like "you lose all credibility" is why they invented the word "hyperbole". But lets just move past that and get to the meat. As I read and understand your post (and maybe I don't understand it) you seem to be saying that you can't use stats in this discussion. When you say that you lose all credibility (see how that sounds? :wink: I'm not serious of course) because without stats what non subjective criteria can you use for judging potential? Apparently if you have a back up QB or a different but similar factor you are forbidden to evaluate these players. Do you just just put them in limbo? Until YOU feel the various other conditions are equal. It's my belief that you look at the stats, consider the other factors like having a backup QB and weigh those 100 catches differently than the 100 the other WR got with a good QB throwing to him.

Can you compare stats compiled in college to those achieved in the NFL? Not directly but in the context of judging potential then I'd say sure. How do you judge potential? You can look at things like did he catch the ball at it's apex or did he not, thus allowing it to be contested. If he caught it in both instances then the stats tell you nothing but the fact that he did catch it is important. So a very thorough eyeball evaluation is critical when evaluating potential. But stats do tell a huge part of the story. What was his catch/drop rate? How many targets did he get? Does he get lots of YAC? If his YAC is small but his yardage is large then it probably means he's able to get open deep very often versus taking a short pass and getting huge amounts of YAC. Stats play a huge part in every evaluation. Without them the whole enterprise becomes purely subjective and whose subjective opinion is right?

Stats certainly aren't the be all end all of the evaluation but they play a huge part in it. IMO of course.

 

[ReddingRam]

I think a trio of Watkins, Bailey and Austin would give us the closest package of Bruce, Holt and Hakim since they broke up. Now ... I'm not saying they ARE those guys, I just see them as having similar skill sets to those three.

 

[iced]

our tight end lead the team in receiving....

tavon led the receivers in catches with 40 - franchise low that hasn't occured since 1983..
rams receivers led the league in drops for awhile and ended pretty highly in that category too

nuff said

 

[ReddingRam]

To me ... the guy I am down on by far is Givens. Yes he has speed, but he dropped a ton of balls that would have been big plays. He does not fight for the ball when he is got a chance to. Speed is nice to have, but he needs to get mentally tougher and get the attitude that any ball in his vicinity is HIS ball.

Pettis to me is our possession WR. He does not have speed, but he has made some pretty tough catches and is good in the RZ. Every team needs a guy like that. Quick has shown a little better, but still has mental lapses. Hopefully he out grows that. I'm willing to give him one more season.

Now ... that should not stop us from drafting a top WR in this draft. I like Bailey as a #2. He runs good routes, has great hands and is tough at fighting for the catch. Austin is what he is... not a pure WR, but a "weapon". P/KR-Slot, good in space. But we clearly do not have a #! WR on this team. Snead says he prefers to draft rather than pay a FA. So taking one high in this draft should be part of their plan. The competition should also help everyone in the group and bring the cream to the top.

 

[max]

our tight end lead the team in receiving....

tavon led the receivers in catches with 40 - franchise low that hasn't occured since 1983..
rams receivers led the league in drops for awhile and ended pretty highly in that category too

nuff said

Yup. There are other teams with less pass attempts than the Rams and they have WRs with more yards than Givens.

The Rams had 506 pass attempts in 2013, and Givens had 569 yds. For comparison, here are a few other teams...
Eagles 508 attempts, and DJackson 1332 yds
Seahawks 420, and Tate 898 yds
Niners 417, and Boldin 1179 yds

So with all due respect to CoachO, I still say the stats say our WRs are less productive than every other team in the NFL.

 

[iced]

Yup. There are other teams with less pass attempts than the Rams and they have WRs with more yards than Givens.

The Rams had 506 pass attempts in 2013, and Givens had 569 yds. For comparison, here are a few other teams...
Eagles 508 attempts, and DJackson 1332 yds
Seahawks 420, and Tate 898 yds
Niners 417, and Boldin 1179 yds

So with all due respect to CoachO, I still say the stats say our WRs are less productive than every other team in the NFL.

and I'll agree.

They didn't have enough opportunities? Disagree. They just squandered it with drops, and led the league with it for what seemed like the majority of the season. If they had caught the ball and converted some 3rd downs, they'd have given themselves more opportunities.

I don't get how WR isn't a screaming need - especially when you consider we have 6 games against carlos rogers, patrick peterson, and the pharmacy of boom

 

[max]

and I'll agree.

They didn't have enough opportunities? Disagree. They just squandered it with drops, and led the league with it for what seemed like the majority of the season. If they had caught the ball and converted some 3rd downs, they'd have given themselves more opportunities.

I don't get how WR isn't a screaming need - especially when you consider we have 6 games against carlos rogers, patrick peterson, and the pharmacy of boom

Yup. We are all hoping that at least one of our WRs will step up big time this year. Sure, there's a decent chance that it happens. But, that doesn't mean it isn't a good idea to add a high quality WR to the mix.

My belief is that when a potentially great WR is staring you in the face in the draft, it's very hard to pass on him. But if you think you can get a WR that is better than what you have on your team with your next pick, then maybe you wait and take a more pressing need if the need position has a guy rated comparably to the WR.

And this is the premise behind my original post.