Fitting Tavon into the run heavy offense

[Athos]

Big year for TA. Book it!

What's a big year though? If people ever expect a 1000 yard season, they'll be sorely disappointed.

I think his best bet in this type of offense, with the other receivers we have is gonna be about 500 yards REC, 300-400 yards rushing. Maybe 6 TDs between the two. I think that's about his ceiling unless he Ike' blesses him with his route running via Mind Melding.

 

[MntneerLegion]

That you continue to use a "highlight reel" from two years ago as the basis for your defense of Austin is pretty much making my point. Where is the "highlight" reel from 2014? The BEST play he made all season was being a DECOY on a punt return against Seattle.

I used the 2013 highlight reel to directly refute your point that, "too many people watch his "video game-like" highlights from his WVU days, and think that automatically translates to the NFL. Obvously, it hasn't." Yes, it has. He is still making people look silly. He just isn't doing it AS MUCH. Now we can debate why, isn't a good receiver or isn't used properly.

Again, the drop off, you go with isn't a good receiver, I go with isn't used properly. Coach is gone, he's still here, hmmm.

He had more carries out of the backfield than he had receptions. That isn't all about playcalling, and QB play. He just disappears most of the time in the passing game. Sure, they throw him a quick hitch to get the ball in his hands. And voila, he makes one guy miss a gains 6 yards (most of the time). When defenses force him to settle into a zone, all the "quicks" in the world don't do him any good. And ever since getting bent in half on a 8 yard curl route, forcing him to miss game action, he hasn't shown any inclination to play in traffic.

It most certainly could be. Did he lose a step from 2013 to 2014? Did he get shorter, weaker, less twitchy? Hard to believe that after a year of NFL coaching he would have gotten dumber or known less about the offense and running routes. (I'm a full fledged WVU homer but we ain't got NFL quality coaches)

Your point about perhaps being "gun shy" since a big hit might be correct, I don't know. Sadly, living in VA I don't get to see many games just highlights.

You seem to be holding on to and get quite defensive about his WVU days, as proof that somehow is supposed to translate into NFL success. I would beg to differ based on what we have seen of him as a WR in a Rams uniform. When they force the ball in his hands by handing it off as a way to get him "touches", that is all the evidence I need to say he is less than an accomplished WR at this point in his career.

This is just a rehash of the above. He HAS had some success just not enough. Perhaps the hand offs were an attempt to diversify not a concession that he is unsuccessful at WR.

You make the statment that they should go back and do the same things they did in this highlight reel. That is where you lose me. I guess I am just fundamentally opposed to having to design an offense around ONE player, regardless of how "talented" that player may be. They have done plenty to come up with a package to get the ball in his ands, but for me, being forced to design "gadget plays" (the toss reverse vs. Chicago for example) is not helping Austin develop, its doing quite the opposite IMO. Sure it can be successful the first time you run it, but its a one bullet, scattergun approach.

Sorry but this is just a mistake or intellectually dishonest. I went out of my way to say don't just run the same plays. And the idea that I said anything remotely close to "...design an offense around ONE player...", is nothing more than a strawman argument. I'll just ignore the "gadget plays" stuff...at this point that comes off as trying to get under my skin rather than discuss.

 

[Memphis Ram]

There are two things that pop out to me when I see this comparison.

1) How many of these highlight plays came against man to man coverage? I'd venture to say the majority of them did. If teams play that much Man coverage vs., the Rams, I have all the confidence in the world that Austin could flourish. Just hasn't been the case in the time he's been here.

2) This only exaggerates the point that they need to establish they can have a running game similar to Washington, to be able to create the mismatches in coverage.

IMO, it's easier to get him that matchup/coverage playing him outside vs. in the slot. Even in Philly, Jackson did most (if not all) of his damage at or outside the numbers whereas Austin has typically been run in the middle of the field (btw, no wonder the QBs can't see him) where Jackson very rarely ventured or ventures.

 

[CoachO]

Sorry but this is just a mistake or intellectually dishonest. I went out of my way to say don't just run the same plays. And the idea that I said anything remotely close to "...design an offense around ONE player...", is nothing more than a strawman argument. I'll just ignore the "gadget plays" stuff...at this point that comes off as trying to get under my skin rather than discuss.

Ulike you, I have watched every game, as well as EVERY OPEN PRACTICE since Austin got here. I see how they try to incorporate him into the offense. And I see how he struggles in all of the areas I have discussed.

As far as trying to get under your skin, with the "gadget play" reference, sorry, but that is what they have done. The "toss counter reverse" they designed against Chicago is exactly that. It worked perfectly, they had great execution. But to say it was anything but a "gadget play" would be denial of the facts. If you take exception with that, well, that's on you.

Did he lose a step from 2013 to 2014? Did he get shorter, weaker, less twitchy? Hard to believe that after a year of NFL coaching he would have gotten dumber or known less about the offense and running routes. (I'm a full fledged WVU homer but we ain't got NFL quality coaches)

Or maybe it was simply a case of other guys showing more consistency, and being more dependable in the offense. Quick and Britt offered more than Austin. Both in production and being able to do more within the offense. Both are bigger targets, and both showed to be capable of stretching the defense. So just maybe, they outperformed Austin enough to warrant the targets and opportunity.

 

[DaveFan'51]

When I talk about him not being able to diagnose coverages, I am talking about seeing what adjustments need to made against zone coverages, adjusting the depth of his routes, and being able to get where he needs to be, WHEN he needs to be there. Are they playing a Cover 2? Cover 2-man under? Is it Cover 1? Cover 3?

All of these things are vital in knowing how to adjust the routes, and I have not seen his demonstrate the ability to diagnose it. When I have watched training camp, jsut as an axample, there are far too many instances when he runs a route, and imediately after the play, Coach Sherman will approach him and can be seen pointing out the adjustments that should be made. This tells me, he is still having issues understanding.

He tends to want to "run around" press coverage when he gets it, which only serves to take him out of his route, and bust the timing of the route. Or he won't understand when to settle in to an opening of a particular zone, or gets too deep in his routes allowing the safety to step up and take him away. Against straight man coverage, he is able to rely on his speed and quickness, but there just aren't many teams who give him that opportunity.

My question for you..... I see many people say they don't think they used him correctly. You say you "didn't like the way Schotty used Tavon." Be more specific. What do you think they should do differently? And keep in mind, you are making the assumption that Austin is capable of doing some of the things you assume they should be asking him to do.

I'm ready to say, after everything is said and done, IF Tavon doesn't break out THIS YEAR, he's not long for the Rams!

 

[jap]

What's a big year though? If people ever expect a 1000 yard season, they'll be sorely disappointed.

I think his best bet in this type of offense, with the other receivers we have is gonna be about 500 yards REC, 300-400 yards rushing. Maybe 6 TDs between the two. I think that's about his ceiling unless he Ike' blesses him with his route running via Mind Melding.

Well, you don't want to leave out TD's via KR/PR---he's definitely got that as well. If TA's offensive snaps go down because he is not as big a threat as a receiver, his KR snaps ought to go up. The point is to put the ball in this kid's hands as often as possible when it is potentially optimal for him to score---that's his real value, the ability to score anywhere on the field.

I would like to see Isaac hold some film break down study sessions with Tavon and the rest of the fly boys. Torry had the better hands and was a pretty good route runner, but I always felt Isaac was more of the complete receiver package. However, if our receivers coach is already doing this with our fly guys, and Tavon isn't benefiting, will having Isaac conduct the film study really help? Isaac would really have to get very intimate about what he sees from DB's, whether they are pressing too hard or hanging back too much, and what he would do to exploit that. Can Tavon graduate to the point where he sees what Isaac sees and can translate his vision to his feet?

 

[CoachO]

IMO, it's easier to get him that matchup/coverage playing him outside vs. in the slot. Even in Philly, Jackson has done most (if not all) of his damage at or outside the numbers whereas Austin has typically been run in the middle of the field (btw, no wonder the QBs can't see him).

No argument from me on that. But as I have mentioned in other posts, I think the thought process bringing him here was to get a faster, quicker version of Amendola. And that hasn't been the case.

The question for me, then becomes, does Austin exclusively on the outside, offer more than a combination of Quick and Britt outside? I am not so sure it does.

 

[LesBaker]

Overall I like the post but wanted to talk about these two things.

For all the talk about wanting to be a ball control, limit turnovers, and RUN THE BALL, they tended to be quick to abandon it under Schottenheimer

This isn't a run first team, the only people I recall making a big deal out of the Rams being a power running/run oriented/run first team were fans who were looking at Fishers past in TN when he was doing what he could with limits at the QB position several seasons.

While I don't think they will throw the ball as infrequently as Seattle does, I do think they will aim to limit Foles to 22-25 passes per game max. The play action game will be thier biggest weapon. And yes, I do think they will take more downfield shots because of it.

I'll make any bet you want to make that Foles averages over 30 passes a game, maybe as high as 35. Last year the 2nd and 3rd string guys averaged 32. By the way Wilson averaged 28 plus last year. I think Foles will throw it a few times more per game than Wilson.

This Rams team is built to PASS. They spent $$$ on FA and draft capital too. They just made a move to reduce the risk at QB, and I don't think they do that deal for Foles because he excecutes a nice handoff. They did it because he throws the ball better than Bradford ever did and they have targets to throw to.

 

[Memphis Ram]

No argument from me on that. But as I have mentioned in other posts, I think the thought process bringing him here was to get a faster, quicker version of Amendola. And that hasn't been the case.

The question for me, then becomes, does Austin exclusively on the outside, offer more than a combination of Quick and Britt outside? I am not so sure it does.

Based upon Fisher's comments, I think (hope) they've finally figured out that he's not a slot WR.

To be honest, I'm not sure if it offers more or less outside or if it really matters given the rotation.

But, I can see where that home run speed is going to draw some attention now that the team has QBs that can get him the ball deep. And that should open things up elsewhere. Especially in the middle of the field where I hope Kendricks and Cook can excel.

 

[Athos]

This isn't a run first team, the only people I recall making a big deal out of the Rams being a power running/run oriented/run first team were fans who were looking at Fishers past in TN when he was doing what he could with limits at the QB position several seasons.

If that were the case, we would have drafted O-lineman FAR BETTER at pass blocking than we did. GRob? Better run blocker. Havenstein? Run. Brown? Run.

Everyone is pretty much a run blocker now except maybe Saffold who's good at both now. And we drafted an elite back.

We're going to be running a lot of PA with Foles.

 

[CoachO]

Overall I like the post but wanted to talk about these two things.

I'll make any bet you want to make that Foles averages over 30 passes a game, maybe as high as 35. Last year the 2nd and 3rd string guys averaged 32. By the way Wilson averaged 28 plus last year. I think Foles will throw it a few times more per game than Wilson.

This Rams team is built to PASS. They spent $$$ on FA and draft capital too. They just made a move to reduce the risk at QB, and I don't think they do that deal for Foles because he excecutes a nice handoff. They did it because he throws the ball better than Bradford ever did and they have targets to throw to.

I will take that bet. When you use the raw numbers from last year, regarding the actual averages of attempts, I think you may be missing one major variable. They were 6-10. They were forced to throw the ball much more than they wanted to because they were consistently trying to get back into games.

When you break down the game by game attempts, you will notice that in the 6 games they actually WON, they threw the ball under 30 times in each of them. For you to say this team is built to throw the ball, I couldn't disagree more.

They are built to take shots when they present themselves, and be EFFICIENT when they do throw the ball. But to simplay say they want to throw it more than run it, I don't see that.

I am not saying they will be RUN HEAVY. But I also don't think they have any chance of being successful throwing it 30+ times per game.

 

[Memphis Ram]

I'll make any bet you want to make that Foles averages over 30 passes a game, maybe as high as 35. Last year the 2nd and 3rd string guys averaged 32. By the way Wilson averaged 28 plus last year. I think Foles will throw it a few times more per game than Wilson.

This Rams team is built to PASS. They spent $$$ on FA and draft capital too. They just made a move to reduce the risk at QB, and I don't think they do that deal for Foles because he excecutes a nice handoff. They did it because he throws the ball better than Bradford ever did and they have targets to throw to.

I don't gamble, but I really doubt this team used the 1st round pick on Gurley and drafted a bunch of roadgrading OLinemen who are better run blockers than pass protectors because they plan to air things out.

And, IMO, you really can't go by last year's stats because the pass happy Schottenhiemer is gone AND oftentimes they had to throw the football.

 

[LesBaker]

I will take that bet. When you use the raw numbers from last year, regarding the actual averages of attempts, I think you may be missing one major variable. They were 6-10. They were forced to throw the ball much more than they wanted to because they were consistently trying to get back into games.

When you break down the game by game attempts, you will notice that in the 6 games they actually WON, they threw the ball under 30 times in each of them. For you to say this team is built to throw the ball, I couldn't disagree more.

They are built to take shots when they present themselves, and be EFFICIENT when they do throw the ball. But to simplay say they want to throw it more than run it, I don't see that.

I am not saying they will be RUN HEAVY. But I also don't think they have any chance of being successful throwing it 30+ times per game.

Name it.

 

[CoachO]

Name it.

as they say on "Fast Lane" (espn101),,, I'll bet you a milkshake!!! LOL

We obviously will have to see how it plays out. But IMO, for THIS team to be successful, throwing the ball 30+ times seems to be a recipe for disaster. And it has proven to be the case in the past.

 

[Athos]

I will take that bet. When you use the raw numbers from last year, regarding the actual averages of attempts, I think you may be missing one major variable. They were 6-10. They were forced to throw the ball much more than they wanted to because they were consistently trying to get back into games.

Agreed. The averages are skewed from a couple games.

Eagles: 49 times because we were down 34-7 and running wasn't gonna do anything.
Whiners (#1): 42 times because the game plan was retarded.
DAL: 42. Only time the pass was working.....until it wasn't and we were running hurry up for no reason.

After that, at least for the Davis, we never passed the ball more than 30 times again. And was more like 25 times.

SD: 35, but losing by 10.
ARZ? A retarded 39 unsuccessful times.

NYG and Hags (#2)? Both blowout affairs.

 

[LesBaker]

I don't gamble, but I really doubt this team used the 1st round pick on Gurley and drafted a bunch of roadgrading OLinemen who are better run blockers than pass protectors because they plan to air things out.

And, IMO, you really can't go by last year's stats because the pass happy Schottenhiemer is gone AND oftentimes they had to throw the football.

But Memphis they have spent a lot more on WR/TE in the last couple of years. I'm not saying this team is going to be one of the type that throw it 600 plus times a year but this isn't a run first team. The OL that are road graders can learn to pass block, and it isn't like they suck at it according to what I read online about reports.

Since Fisher has been in STL the pass/run ratio is this:

2012 557/411
2013 506/426 (half the year with backups)
2014 515/395 (all year with backups)

This is not a run first or run oriented team based on what they have done in free agency, the draft and on the field. The "run first/power run team" is a complete and total myth. I'd like to see where Fisher said that was his philosophy on offense.

I think it's something that has been given life by fans who aren't paying attention to what he is doing versus what he used to do in a totally different situation years ago AND idiot media talking heads, many based in STL, that aren't paying attention.

I will agree that Fisher is building the Rams D to be similar to his Titans defenses. But that just ain't the case on the other side of the ball and the facts all bear that out.

@CoachO we have a bet and I intend to collect :O)

 

[RamWoodie]

I'm ready to say, after everything is said and done, IF Tavon doesn't break out THIS YEAR, he's not long for the Rams!

Why does TA have to "break out" this year? That's simply a perception you have about him. TA is in his 3rd year and still learning. He doesn't have to "break out" (as you say), as he has to be consistent.

Let's not act as if TA didn't present problems for opposition, because he clearly did...even as a rookie teams made sure they KNEW WHERE HE WAS ON THE FIELD. That in itself shows the guy has an impact.

What has to happen now when it comes to TA is he has to show he knows how to read coverages and make the right choices within the play design. That is the "mental" of the game that will make or break a guy.

Contrary to having to "break out" TA only has to deliver in whatever position the Rams place him in.

My question to you is for you to define "break out" based on your assertion...

 

[DaveFan'51]

Why does TA have to "break out" this year? That's simply a perception you have about him. TA is in his 3rd year and still learning. He doesn't have to "break out" (as you say), as he has to be consistent.

Let's not act as if TA didn't present problems for opposition, because he clearly did...even as a rookie teams made sure they KNEW WHERE HE WAS ON THE FIELD. That in itself shows the guy has an impact.

What has to happen now when it comes to TA is he has to show he knows how to read coverages and make the right choices within the play design. That is the "mental" of the game that will make or break a guy.

Contrary to having to "break out" TA only has to deliver in whatever position the Rams place him in.

My question to you is for you to define "break out" based on your assertion...

Like you said this is purely my personal opinion, and my perception of things!
I like Tavon, and like what he has done. But it is year 3, and if he doesn't break out, I don't believe he is long for THIS team!

 

[Limey]

Some good points made above about Fisher's offensive philosophy. FWIW my view is that part of the reason why we haven't been more successful (lack of talent when he arrived, and key injuries more recently being other significant factors) has been a lack of a clear offensive philosophy. Changing your entire strategy after an early bye week shows flexibility, but also a severe initial misjudgement. One of the reasons why I really like this draft is because it does have the potential to give the O a real identity. With 4 young, huge OLers and a big, fast, every down back, I can see us smashing the ball down teams' throats with great regularity, then play actioning over the heads of a stacked box to speedy receivers facing single coverage. Won't surprise me if we score more passing TDs this season, but not because we are passing it more, but because finally opponents will be forced to respect our running game and we have a QB who can throw downfield.

 

[CoachO]

But Memphis they have spent a lot more on WR/TE in the last couple of years. I'm not saying this team is going to be one of the type that throw it 600 plus times a year but this isn't a run first team. The OL that are road graders can learn to pass block, and it isn't like they suck at it according to what I read online about reports.

Since Fisher has been in STL the pass/run ratio is this:

2012 557/411
2013 506/426 (half the year with backups)
2014 515/395 (all year with backups)

This is not a run first or run oriented team based on what they have done in free agency, the draft and on the field. The "run first/power run team" is a complete and total myth. I'd like to see where Fisher said that was his philosophy on offense.

I think it's something that has been given life by fans who aren't paying attention to what he is doing versus what he used to do in a totally different situation years ago AND idiot media talking heads, many based in STL, that aren't paying attention.

I will agree that Fisher is building the Rams D to be similar to his Titans defenses. But that just ain't the case on the other side of the ball and the facts all bear that out.

@CoachO we have a bet and I intend to collect :O)

haha,,, right back at ya!

I think you are paying too much attention to the raw numbers, and not taking into account the context in which they came about. This team has been built to play with a lead, on BOTH sides of the ball. But unfortunately, that hasn't played out very often. In the games where they jump out (Chicago, Indianapolis, New Orleans, Denver, Oakland) they have been able to bury teams with this defense and pass rush.

But when they aren't capable of getting a lead, they have been forced to throw the ball without much success. Yes, they have had less than stellar QB play for most of that time. But the FACT is, when they throw it more than 30 times in any given game, they don't win very often.

Now, I don't know what your definition of a "run first" team is. If by that, you are saying they will flip the numbers and run substantially MORE than pass, I don't necessarily see that being the case either. But to say this is somehow a passing team by design, isn't accurate.

 

[Memphis Ram]

But Memphis they have spent a lot more on WR/TE in the last couple of years. I'm not saying this team is going to be one of the type that throw it 600 plus times a year but this isn't a run first team. The OL that are road graders can learn to pass block, and it isn't like they suck at it according to what I read online about reports.

Since Fisher has been in STL the pass/run ratio is this:

2012 557/411
2013 506/426 (half the year with backups)
2014 515/395 (all year with backups)

This is not a run first or run oriented team based on what they have done in free agency, the draft and on the field. The "run first/power run team" is a complete and total myth. I'd like to see where Fisher said that was his philosophy on offense.

I think it's something that has been given life by fans who aren't paying attention to what he is doing versus what he used to do in a totally different situation years ago AND idiot media talking heads, many based in STL, that aren't paying attention.

I will agree that Fisher is building the Rams D to be similar to his Titans defenses. But that just ain't the case on the other side of the ball and the facts all bear that out.

@CoachO we have a bet and I intend to collect :O)

But, again the pass to run ratios have a lot to do with the team playing from behind and dare I say Schottenhiemer.

But, going by what both Fisher and Snead have said this offseason AND the moves they've made this offseason it's obvious what the gameplan is this upcoming season.

"It's a run game, you need to run the football and you need to complement your play action game to the run game," Fisher said. "And play good defense and play good special teams. Everybody will tell you, if you've got a top five or six defense and you can run the football, you've got a chance to be in the final four. That's the very basic theory."

 

[Athos]

Now, I don't know what your definition of a "run first" team is. If by that, you are saying they will flip the numbers and run substantially MORE than pass, I don't necessarily see that being the case either. But to say this is somehow a passing team by design, isn't accurate.

Yep. They tried that in 2013. Didn't work out very well.

And as for WRs? Well, our "playmakers" kinda sucked....a lot. Snisher just had to straight up bring in better talent at the skill positions.

I'm guessing we go back to a try WCO with a crap ton of PA. At least when Gurley finally suits up 100%.

Yea, they'll strike downfield a bit. But that's because they'll be setting up a lot of plays with the run now.