Fitting Tavon into the run heavy offense

[CoachO]

nice post- I don't agree with it all, but nice post all the same. Here is my question, why do you say he cant identify coverages? Ive heard this thrown around, but players who cannot diagnose coverages usually don't make the field. So I simply don't buy that one. Route running- surely he can improve- but that is expected.

We will find out how much was Shotty this year. If he is used much more and more creatively, then we will know. Obviously a lot of all our wrs issues was playing with backup QBs. However I just didn't love the way Shotty used Tavon. One thing is for sure, a starting caliber RB and a power run game should certainly help. I think a better OC will as well.

When I talk about him not being able to diagnose coverages, I am talking about seeing what adjustments need to made against zone coverages, adjusting the depth of his routes, and being able to get where he needs to be, WHEN he needs to be there. Are they playing a Cover 2? Cover 2-man under? Is it Cover 1? Cover 3?

All of these things are vital in knowing how to adjust the routes, and I have not seen his demonstrate the ability to diagnose it. When I have watched training camp, jsut as an axample, there are far too many instances when he runs a route, and imediately after the play, Coach Sherman will approach him and can be seen pointing out the adjustments that should be made. This tells me, he is still having issues understanding.

He tends to want to "run around" press coverage when he gets it, which only serves to take him out of his route, and bust the timing of the route. Or he won't understand when to settle in to an opening of a particular zone, or gets too deep in his routes allowing the safety to step up and take him away. Against straight man coverage, he is able to rely on his speed and quickness, but there just aren't many teams who give him that opportunity.

My question for you..... I see many people say they don't think they used him correctly. You say you "didn't like the way Schotty used Tavon." Be more specific. What do you think they should do differently? And keep in mind, you are making the assumption that Austin is capable of doing some of the things you assume they should be asking him to do.

 

[tbux]

Coach- respect your insights and I am sure you are correct about his pre season issues. However when I watch the games, I don't see what you are claiming, and I don't see him being scolded on the sidelines afterwards. IE if these issues were happening during games, I don't think he would be making the field much, as these are basic things for receivers to learn and the proper amount of film study and practice should make those things easy to get after 2 years. I don't think running him up the middle is a great way to use him. More reverses, bubble screens, bunch formations etc to take advantage of his speed. And yes more go routes- obviously if Ds are in cover 2- different story, but we aren't always against cover two's. I sensed a little frustration as seasons end when the subject of Tavon came up and how he was used. He made it clear that would change, and then Shotty leaves a week later. Recently again talked about a better focus on getting him more touches. Tells me we simply didn't use him as often as we should have and nothing about him not being able to diagnose plays.

 

[CoachO]

Coach- respect your insights and I am sure you are correct about his pre season issues. However when I watch the games, I don't see what you are claiming, and I don't see him being scolded on the sidelines afterwards. IE if these issues were happening during games, I don't think he would be making the field much, as these are basic things for receivers to learn and the proper amount of film study and practice should make those things easy to get after 2 years. I don't think running him up the middle is a great way to use him. More reverses, bubble screens, bunch formations etc to take advantage of his speed. And yes more go routes- obviously if Ds are in cover 2- different story, but we aren't always against cover two's. I sensed a little frustration as seasons end when the subject of Tavon came up and how he was used. He made it clear that would change, and then Shotty leaves a week later. Recently again talked about a better focus on getting him more touches. Tells me we simply didn't use him as often as we should have and nothing about him not being able to diagnose plays.

I guess once again, we can agree to disagree.

If he was making the right reads, combined with his obvious skillset, then how do you justify having more carries than receptions? He just isn't a threat in the pasing game that everyone wants or expects him to be.

Based on what you seem to think they need to be doing, you are suggesting they change the very foundation of the offense to accomodate ONE player's skillset. How many bubble screens do they run to guys other than Austin? The foundation of running a "bubble screen" is to have an ahtletic and moblie Offensive line. Do you think that describes the Rams OL?

Not sure how many more reverses or Jet Sweeps they can run, where it doesn't become redundant and ineffective? Running Austin on a simple "go" route against Cover 2, or Cover 3, which is what they Rams see most of the time, just isn't going to work. Teams will have a deep Safety rolling to his side. Same thing has been discussed about Givens and his lack of contribution the past 2 years. It is just too easy to take them away with 2 deep safeties.

I just don't see Austin's role in this offense, ever being one where he is featured. I go back to the pre-draft event the night before they drafted him. Fisher "hinted" at them taking someone who would greatly enhance the "return game", and in that role he excels. But as a receiver, he still has a long way to go before he can be counted on, IMO. With guys like Britt, Quick, Cook, and even Bailey all showing to be more capable, Austin will continue to be a 3rd or 4th option on most days.

Look, I am not saying he doesn't have value. He is still a potential game changer. I just don't have the expectations many seem to have. It seems too many people watch his "video game-like" highlights from his WVU days, and think that automatically translates to the NFL. Obvously, it hasn't. To think that he is a "home run waiting to happen" is a mistake, IMO.

 

[MntneerLegion]

I guess once again, we can agree to disagree.

If he was making the right reads, combined with his obvious skillset, then how do you justify having more carries than receptions? He just isn't a threat in the pasing game that everyone wants or expects him to be.

Based on what you seem to think they need to be doing, you are suggesting they change the very foundation of the offense to accomodate ONE player's skillset. How many bubble screens do they run to guys other than Austin? The foundation of running a "bubble screen" is to have an ahtletic and moblie Offensive line. Do you think that describes the Rams OL?

Not sure how many more reverses or Jet Sweeps they can run, where it doesn't become redundant and ineffective? Running Austin on a simple "go" route against Cover 2, or Cover 3, which is what they Rams see most of the time, just isn't going to work. Teams will have a deep Safety rolling to his side. Same thing has been discussed about Givens and his lack of contribution the past 2 years. It is just too easy to take them away with 2 deep safeties.

I just don't see Austin's role in this offense, ever being one where he is featured. I go back to the pre-draft event the night before they drafted him. Fisher "hinted" at them taking someone who would greatly enhance the "return game", and in that role he excels. But as a receiver, he still has a long way to go before he can be counted on, IMO. With guys like Britt, Quick, Cook, and even Bailey all showing to be more capable, Austin will continue to be a 3rd or 4th option on most days.

Look, I am not saying he doesn't have value. He is still a potential game changer. I just don't have the expectations many seem to have. It seems too many people watch his "video game-like" highlights from his WVU days, and think that automatically translates to the NFL. Obvously, it hasn't. To think that he is a "home run waiting to happen" is a mistake, IMO.

If you are saying he hasn't achieved similar success in the NFL, no he hasn't. Few players come in and dominate right away and actually he's been pretty dang good at returning. That said let's not imply that he hasn't had success in the NFL...how is he making all these plays...

 

[-X-]

Well again, if he knew and didn't want to use him that way, again I say that is a flaw in Shotty. When you listen to that Fisher interview, and take out the coach speak stuff, you still come away with " we didn't use him as well as we could have, and will this year". Personally I think its part of the reason Shotty isn't here anymore. I still believe he was politely asked to look for other employment. Either way, lets see what happens this year. I am betting we Tavon is indeed used more and is much more effective for us. IF he isn't, I will concede its Tavon, but I just don't see it that way at all.

That's kind of a case of hearing what you wanna hear, and believing what you choose to believe as it relates to Schotty, but everyone's been down that road before so there's no real point in doing it again. Him aside, it sounds like everyone with a keyboard could use him more effectively anyway, since that's such an oft-used catch-phrase. I find it baffling that Fisher, McGinnis, and Sherman would sit idly by and watch the OC waste an obvious receiving talent like Tavon, so they all must have been morons for letting it happen. That, or he just forgot how to use a receiver with deep speed since he clearly got creative with Givens in his rookie year (before his own limitations and opposing DC's gameplanning cut into his productivity).

Let me ask you this too. Why were multiple coordinators unable to effectively use Dante Hall during his career and turn him into the league's best receiver? Because very few players in the history of the league had his athleticism and speed. Did he just never land with the right team or OC or Head Coach? Or is it (even remotely) possible that you need more than that to become a great receiver?

To the OP's question, however, once you establish a punishing and intimidating ground game, everything else opens up. Tavon could be used as a change-of-pace back, on sweeps and reverses, you could utilize him out of the 'Y' on the occasions where a defense has to use man coverage, and you make him return every single punt and kickoff. That's how you use him in a power run game.

 

[ReddingRam]

This topic continues to baffle me.

How they are able to utilize Tavon Austin has more to do with Tavon Austin, than it does with the scheme or design of the offense.

He is entering his 3rd year, and this far he has been unable to find a way to be a factor in the passing game. People seem to think that by somehow "designing special plays" for him they should be able to "use him properly". But more than any play design, its more about how HE understands how to attack defenses, and become more of a factor within the system. People are quick to point the finger at Schottenheimer. But its not by accident that he had more carries, than receptions last year. He just hasn't shown he understands how to get open as a receiver. And that is with 4 different QBs. It cannot all be about the OC or QB. At some point, maybe we say its the receiver.

The problem, and this has been discussed numerous times before, is that thus far, Austin isn't capable of being a difference maker when teams play zone against this offense. In his only real breakout game, Indianopolis inexcusably played straight man to man all day vs. Rams, and both Austin and Givens had huge days on crossing routes. The problem is, MOST teams don't do this against the Rams. So to simply say that he will be able to beat single coverage, IMO, is not looking at the big picture here.

The thought process to drafting him, IMO, was that he was going to be a quicker, faster "Danny Amendola" type. But that hasn't been the case. I have watched them try to run him on the option routes (arrow routes) and crossing routes in training camp, and he just isn't very good at it. And when forced to settle into the soft spots of the zone coverage, and being forced to virtually come to a complete stop, Austin loses his advantage. In the open field, or catching the ball on the move he is as dangerous as any receiver in the game. But he just doesn't have the stop and start quickness they envisioned.

Until Austin himself, shows he can figure it out, I just don't see why so many think they should design the offense around getting him the ball. He will have his role in the offense, but not like many seem to hope he will. I would venture to say, he will again be about the 4th or 5th best option on most days.

^^^ THIS! It is one of the reasons I was NOT high on drafting him as early as we did....and when we traded UP ... I shuddered. But watching his college tape, I saw a "gimmick" guy. Not a WR. Bailey was/is clearly the better WR both then and now. He also needs to get rid of the "fear" ... you can kind tell when he is in traffic, that he is worried more about what is going on around him than concentrating on doing the little things like not rounding the route .... watching the ball all the way in...etc.

 

[RamWoodie]

When it comes to TA. I think he had some of the same problems Quick had coming from an offense that had no real correlation to "pro set offenses". TA faced better talent because he was Div 1 while Quick was Div 2.

TA has done a bit of everything since the Rams drafted him WR, KR, PR, Flanker, RB...and I think as he continues to mature and know how to read and react to coverages, this conversation may die down.

I know for a fact TA NFL speed surprised TA...moves he made in college didn't work in the NFL. He had to learn that.

 

[CoachO]

If you are saying he hasn't achieved similar success in the NFL, no he hasn't. Few players come in and dominate right away and actually he's been pretty dang good at returning. That said let's not imply that he hasn't had success in the NFL...how is he making all these plays...

Show me where I've said that he isn't capable of making plays. I also think he could very well be the most dangerous return man in the league.

My entire point is, and has been as a WR, he is the furthest thing from consistent. His "highlights" are few and far between as a WR over the course of two full seasons.

 

[MntneerLegion]

^^^ THIS! It is one of the reasons I was NOT high on drafting him as early as we did....and when we traded UP ... I shuddered. But watching his college tape, I saw a "gimmick" guy. Not a WR. Bailey was/is clearly the better WR both then and now. He also needs to get rid of the "fear" ... you can kind tell when he is in traffic, that he is worried more about what is going on around him than concentrating on doing the little things like not rounding the route .... watching the ball all the way in...etc.

I'm pretty much a guest here so I'll hold my tongue a little but there is no word I hate hearing more than "gimmick". We used to get called a "gimmick" offense when Rich Rod was with us. My definition of "gimmick"...cleverly using what you have. Precisely what some are saying you guys are not doing with him.

If you watch the highlight tape of the OK game there was nothing gimmicky about it. How is running straight at them gimmicky? In the last video I posted of his 2013 highlights, how many of those plays are gimmicks? If he can't get open how is he making those catches?

 

[ReddingRam]

I'm pretty much a guest here so I'll hold my tongue a little but there is no word I hate hearing more than "gimmick". We used to get called a "gimmick" offense when Rich Rod was with us. My definition of "gimmick"...cleverly using what you have. Precisely what some are saying you guys are not doing with him.

If you watch the highlight tape of the OK game there was nothing gimmicky about it. How is running straight at them gimmicky? In the last video I posted of his 2013 highlights, how many of those plays are gimmicks? If he can't get open how is he making those catches?

Not meaning to get your goat or anything but .. one or two games does not show anything about being a reliable WR. IF he was such a great WR at WVU .. hen why did his team mate (then and now) have more receiving yards? The Okla. game that is often referred to, is a game (one) that TOTALLY went his way. but still .. the routes?? 90% screen plays. And in the NFL .. his avg. screen has gone for 4 yds .. .so IF he was running that against that OU Defense every game, then yes ... he would have great WR stats. As of now he is what he is .. .a return guy that will be moved around in the offense and hopefully he will learn that in the NFL you have to run routes with precision, watch the ball ll the way in and ... nobody falls for that stutter step in the Pros. Quickest way from point A to point B is to use SPEED. When he does just accelerate instead of trying to juke, he is far more successful.

 

[Memphis Ram]

My question for you..... I see many people say they don't think they used him correctly. You say you "didn't like the way Schotty used Tavon." Be more specific. What do you think they should do differently? And keep in mind, you are making the assumption that Austin is capable of doing some of the things you assume they should be asking him to do.

Thus far, he's proven that he's not a faster, quicker Amendola. ie. he is simply not a slot WR. They might as well leave that spot for slot TE Cook or WR Bailey.

But, Fisher pretty much said what needs to happen with Tavon in his interview. "He can get behind you outside. And that's the exciting part about him. He's got the speed to get deep, behind you as an outside WR as well..."

Amendola gameplan out.

DeSean Jackson gameplan in.

 

[MntneerLegion]

Show me where I've said that he isn't capable of making plays. I also think he could very well be the most dangerous return man in the league.

My entire point is, and has been as a WR, he is the furthest thing from consistent. His "highlights" are few and far between as a WR over the course of two full seasons.

Coach, this board is funny in that it doesn't show the entire post I quoted unless you open it up (I'm sure you know this but I didn't). I highlighted this part of your post when I replied, "too many people watch his "video game-like" highlights from his WVU days, and think that automatically translates to the NFL. Obvously, it hasn't." That was the context of my question.

You ask, "Show me where I've said that he isn't capable of making plays." I didn't say you said he wasn't capable. You said "it hasn't". I'm just asserting that he makes people look silly in the NFL just like he did in college. Does he do it as often, no and that should be expected as it's a step up in competition. I'm saying he has shown success and could be used more and the OP wants to know how.

 

[MntneerLegion]

Not meaning to get your goat or anything but .. one or two games does not show anything about being a reliable WR. IF he was such a great WR at WVU .. hen why did his team mate (then and now) have more receiving yards? The Okla. game that is often referred to, is a game (one) that TOTALLY went his way. but still .. the routes?? 90% screen plays. And in the NFL .. his avg. screen has gone for 4 yds .. .so IF he was running that against that OU Defense every game, then yes ... he would have great WR stats. As of now he is what he is .. .a return guy that will be moved around in the offense and hopefully he will learn that in the NFL you have to run routes with precision, watch the ball ll the way in and ... nobody falls for that stutter step in the Pros. Quickest way from point A to point B is to use SPEED. When he does just accelerate instead of trying to juke, he is far more successful.

I don't know if there is a way but I posted here right after I joined (just after the draft) that you all stole Stedman and that I thought he was the better receiver, Tavon is just better after the catch.

You guys seem to be missing one thing in my humble opinion. Look at his 2013 highlight tape. Those plays wouldn't be on there unless they were successful. My challenge to you sharp guys...why was he open...gadget play, defender fell down, going against a 3rd stringer, why? Figure that out and do more of it, and I don't mean run the same play. I mean figure out why the play was successful, why he was able to succeed on these plays then get your offensive genius to design more plays that take advantage of that talent advantage.

 

[ReddingRam]

I don't know if there is a way but I posted here right after I joined (just after the draft) that you all stole Stedman and that I thought he was the better receiver, Tavon is just better after the catch.

You guys seem to be missing one thing in my humble opinion. Look at his 2013 highlight tape. Those plays wouldn't be on there unless they were successful. My challenge to you sharp guys...why was he open...gadget play, defender fell down, going against a 3rd stringer, why? Figure that out and do more of it, and I don't mean run the same play. I mean figure out why the play was successful, why he was able to succeed on these plays then get your offensive genius to design more plays that take advantage of that talent advantage.

I'm sure that ALL of us here want to see him succeed. And I know the kid has the "talent". But at this level he 1) has a disadvantage of being undersized and 2) he still has a lot to do to make himself a better NFL player. it is NOT all about "figuring out how to use him. As posted above ... he made plays in college that just aren't going to be the same here in the NFL (See Manziel, RGIII, etc.) . I think it's more of a combo of TA "getting it" and the coaches "coaching it". I personally would like to see him used more on the quick slants and deep routes. but he has to learn to beat his guys. with his size, he needs to get open. He has to learn how to find the seems in Zones, beat press coverage, adjust on routes instead of just running what is called (ie: sight adjustments at the line). If he can get better and coached coach him up. .. he will be weapon. We must hope for it because for crying out loud ... he was the #8 pick and we traded up for him. we NEED to see the rewards for doing that.

 

[MntneerLegion]

I'm sure that ALL of us here want to see him succeed. And I know the kid has the "talent". But at this level he 1) has a disadvantage of being undersized and 2) he still has a lot to do to make himself a better NFL player. it is NOT all about "figuring out how to use him. As posted above ... he made plays in college that just aren't going to be the same here in the NFL (See Manziel, RGIII, etc.) . I think it's more of a combo of TA "getting it" and the coaches "coaching it". I personally would like to see him used more on the quick slants and deep routes. but he has to learn to beat his guys. with his size, he needs to get open. He has to learn how to find the seems in Zones, beat press coverage, adjust on routes instead of just running what is called (ie: sight adjustments at the line). If he can get better and coached coach him up. .. he will be weapon. We must hope for it because for crying out loud ... he was the #8 pick and we traded up for him. we NEED to see the rewards for doing that.

Even being a homer I don't doubt that he has work to do. I'm just puzzled by some of the skepticism. I'm too lazy at this point to go back and quote but the idea of dismissing the coach when he says he thinks he could/should do more with him or that since he hasn't met expectations he was a mistake just seems overly skeptical.

 

[CoachO]

I don't know if there is a way but I posted here right after I joined (just after the draft) that you all stole Stedman and that I thought he was the better receiver, Tavon is just better after the catch.

You guys seem to be missing one thing in my humble opinion. Look at his 2013 highlight tape. Those plays wouldn't be on there unless they were successful. My challenge to you sharp guys...why was he open...gadget play, defender fell down, going against a 3rd stringer, why? Figure that out and do more of it, and I don't mean run the same play. I mean figure out why the play was successful, why he was able to succeed on these plays then get your offensive genius to design more plays that take advantage of that talent advantage.

That you continue to use a "highlight reel" from two years ago as the basis for your defense of Austin is pretty much making my point. Where is the "highlight" reel from 2014? The BEST play he made all season was being a DECOY on a punt return against Seattle.

He had more carries out of the backfield than he had receptions. That isn't all about playcalling, and QB play. He just disappears most of the time in the passing game. Sure, they throw him a quick hitch to get the ball in his hands. And voila, he makes one guy miss a gains 6 yards (most of the time). When defenses force him to settle into a zone, all the "quicks" in the world don't do him any good. And ever since getting bent in half on a 8 yard curl route, forcing him to miss game action, he hasn't shown any inclination to play in traffic.

You seem to be holding on to and get quite defensive about his WVU days, as proof that somehow is supposed to translate into NFL success. I would beg to differ based on what we have seen of him as a WR in a Rams uniform. When they force the ball in his hands by handing it off as a way to get him "touches", that is all the evidence I need to say he is less than an accomplished WR at this point in his career.

You make the statment that they should go back and do the same things they did in this highlight reel. That is where you lose me. I guess I am just fundamentally opposed to having to design an offense around ONE player, regardless of how "talented" that player may be. They have done plenty to come up with a package to get the ball in his ands, but for me, being forced to design "gadget plays" (the toss reverse vs. Chicago for example) is not helping Austin develop, its doing quite the opposite IMO. Sure it can be successful the first time you run it, but its a one bullet, scattergun approach.

 

[Memphis Ram]

Hopefully, Tavon Austin's new role.

 

[Athos]

Tavon is just a swiss army knife gadget player. Never the kind of tool you're going to be able to do big jobs with. i.e.

Austin will never be the high volume reception guy Danny A was.

He won't be the 100/yard a game REC guy many honks claimed he could be.

He won't be the gashing runner people thought him to be.

He'll be a Pro-Bowler as a return guy and little else. Which is why I didn't enjoy the pick.

He's a guy you use to distract offenses because of his speed, but ultimately doesn't really do the glitzy work. He's a glorified decoy who will every other game or so, have a big play to make you go wow. But I just don't seem big plays every week with him. Or rather, multiple big plays per game.

Maybe that changes. Doubt it though. Gurley is going to be our big play guy now, along with Britt. And if he returns pre-injury form, Quick.

 

[CGI_Ram]

Even being a homer I don't doubt that he has work to do. I'm just puzzled by some of the skepticism. I'm too lazy at this point to go back and quote but the idea of dismissing the coach when he says he thinks he could/should do more with him or that since he hasn't met expectations he was a mistake just seems overly skeptical.

I am more in your camp than out.

He's obviously picking up the offense slower than desired, but that's not uncommon for the position. Being his 3rd year, things should be coming together for him.

Having a QB with the arm to open more of the field should benefit Tavon as well. How many times did we see Britt underthrown last year? Tells me a lot about what the defense had to defend.

Big year for TA. Book it!

 

[CoachO]

Hopefully, Tavon Austin's new role.

There are two things that pop out to me when I see this comparison.

1) How many of these highlight plays came against man to man coverage? I'd venture to say the majority of them did. If teams play that much Man coverage vs., the Rams, I have all the confidence in the world that Austin could flourish. Just hasn't been the case in the time he's been here.

2) This only exaggerates the point that they need to establish they can have a running game similar to Washington, to be able to create the mismatches in coverage.