Covid 19 thread

[kurtfaulk]

I'm really trying to limit my time in this discussion so as to avoid being perceived as insensitive. I get that there are a lot of deaths, but I'm having a hard time trusting the numbers - due primarily to so many different "isolated cases" of numbers tampering. I'm not sure if they'll ever be accurate, but in a few years I'd love to see how the averages of diseases now being attributed to Covid-19 have tracked. Meaning, looking *back* to 2020, were there a whole lot less diabetes-related deaths, respiratory-related deaths, heart-disease deaths, influenza deaths, TB-deaths, etc., while this pandemic was going on? I'm genuinely curious because of how deaths are being coded now.

I'll give you another small example of my skepticism here. I'm an elevator mechanic, yeah? So I work at a number of hospitals (because, duh, hospitals have elevators). One of them (St Francis) is an interesting case study. I work there nearly everyday. Well, one day I went there (back in April) and they had a giant container outside of the loading dock. I asked one of the engineers (that's what maintenance guys call themselves now, lol) what it was, and he informed me it was a freezer to put bodies in because of fears the body count is going to get too high. There was just no place to store them all. So after I came down from my initial shock, I asked if the ICU was at capacity. "No, it's not even at 30%". Okay, I thought, and went on with my day. That 'freezer' was there for two months before it was removed. Never used. The ICU never even came close to capacity. Well, here's the side-story to all that. Our company gave St Francis a proposal to modernize a couple of really shitty elevators in there and it came to around $160,000.00. They've had that proposal for YEARS (with annual adjustments on price), but never pulled the trigger because of budget constraints. I was the biggest advocate for that modernization because I was responsible for keeping those pieces of shit running despite their unreliability. Well. Wouldn't you know. They signed that proposal a week ago for $177,000.00. Where did this sudden windfall come from? I have it on good authority that they were paid a substantial amount of money to keep that freezer there, and of course the money for every Covid case they reported. So not only were they not overrun with Covid deaths, but they actually turned a nice little profit from the hysteria. Good for them, good for me (because those pieces of shit are being torn out), but bad for the legitimacy of these numbers. But again, this is only an 'isolated incident' of numbers tampering and profiting off of the pandemic.

I'm too far down the rabbit hole on this one to be considered a productive contributor to this discussion. I'm uncovering some stuff that doesn't pass the smell test, and efforts to discredit / cover it up are disheartening. But let me just also say that I appreciate how you guys are handling it here. Things can get heated on issues like this, and y'all are doing a pretty good job of keeping it civil and productive. Could it be better? Sure. But all things considered, I'm pretty proud of the level of civility being displayed here.

back when the hysteria started in march or april there were videos on youtube of people visiting hospitals that were being reported as overrun. every emergency waiting room was empty. which was weird because when you read news reports people were saying that they were waiting in the jam packed emergency waiting room for hours to be looked at by a doctor.

the two didn't mesh.

here's one of them.



.

 

[dieterbrock]

So using the John Hopkins data -

Total Confirmed
12,238,034
Total Deaths
554,843

That gives me a death rate of ....

4.5 percent

That’s worldwide data - not date specific.

For the U.S. only

3,219,999 cases
135,822 dead

4.2 percent

So, honest question back at you - how did you come up with .05%?

Not arguing or disputing, just clarifying some data here, if you subtract the USA numbers from the Worldwide total to compare apples to apples, the Worldwide numbers are more like:
9,018,035 cases
419,021 dead
Rate of 4.65% vs USA 4.22%
From a point of reference, that is a considerably worse rate of death than the rest of the World however the narrative seems to indicate we are somehow worse.

As to the .05% death rate, not sure if that was based on total population of 136k deaths out of 330 mill population, which would still be way off as that number would be .004% of the total population

 

[dieterbrock]

I understand that my buddy @dieterbrock has different interpretations of the numbers. But let’s not play upside-down world and pretend that lots of infections is a GOOD thing.

I'm not sure I understand how interpretations of the numbers is different? They are what they are. Every country "could have done better", we are no different. But the numbers do not show the USA handling it worse which many imply. And I never indicated that infections is a good thing (I know you werent quoting me on that) only that increased testing was sure to bring along increased positive results.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

That’s the same as saying “Ferrari’s are available. If you want one, you can buy one.”

Guarantee that any vaccine produced will have been made with significant publicly funded research. If they want to cover costs, fine, but to charge thousands per dose when it costs a few dollars to produce is robbery. A $3200 dollar vaccine for someone who’s not used any deductible or for those without insurance, it may as well cost a million.

We eradicated Polio because the patent was sold for a dollar and the vaccine was widely available to everyone...for free. Also, with most insurance being related to jobs and 42 million newly unemployed... gonna be interesting how they work out getting that vaccine out during the eviction crisis that’s started the 1st of July...

I hear you
Again we have an archaic health care system that treats symptoms and not root causes - I can’t account for those that do or don’t have insurance or what the price of a vaccine will be. Good news is there should be a few vaccines soon and then there will be competition to sell as many as possible. Look on the bright side for once. Nobody wants to make the vaccine that is coming a Ferrari - trust me. A sofa from Levitz maybe but not a Ferrari. Maybe a used 2007 Miata

 

[EastRam]

Any vaccine should be free.
Just my 2 cents

 

[Dieter the Brock]

I completely disagree.
The Education that was provided at the end of last year was deplorable. And as a parent of a special needs kid our progress of learning from the first 3/4 of the year was basically thrown in the trash.
I think what’s not being said is that opening the schools is a higher risk to the faculty and staff who need to be fully protected.
the idea that the kids are going to be able to social distance/wear masks just seems unimaginable

I understand what your concern is, but my concern is the underhanded dismantling of public education. It’s happening right now as we speak. The powers that be are using this pandemic as a way to destroy whatever is left and to shift to privatization of education — in the future there will be no public schools. If you want to be an athlete you’ll have to Enroll in a private school that specializes in that particular sport — basketball is already there with these prep schools and guys like LaMelo Ball going to Europe. That’s the future. Kids will have to go to private schools or rely on homeschooling.

But back to my point - and I hope nobody thinks I’m trying to drag this into verboten territory because I’m only pointing out what is happening regardless of political affiliation — but the government is looking at schools opening for the day care aspect - not education. They want kids to go back to school so parents can go back to work and boost those employment numbers. That’s what I mean when I say it’s about the day care and not about the education. And when they fail to prevent the spread for a million obvious reasons the powers that be will use this failure to condemn public schools and defund them entirely — it’s a win win for those that want to privatize school.

Public Schools won’t get the funding they need to deal with the pandemic let alone deal with providing a quality education. They haven’t been since I heard my parents comolaining around the dinner table 35 years ago.

What they are doing to USPS they are doing to public schools.

They will use whatever is in their power to destroy public education.

Check out this tweet today from the leader of the Federal government - it’s has nothing to do with these notions of radical left or whatever garbage. It’s just a way to defund.

Yesterday the threat from the leader of the Federal government was to defund if public schools didn’t reopen - and now it’s this.

Believe me when i tell you. Public education is about to go extinct. Best make new plans and not depend on free schooling much longer

 

[12intheBox]

Not arguing or disputing, just clarifying some data here, if you subtract the USA numbers from the Worldwide total to compare apples to apples, the Worldwide numbers are more like:
9,018,035 cases
419,021 dead
Rate of 4.65% vs USA 4.22%
From a point of reference, that is a considerably worse rate of death than the rest of the World however the narrative seems to indicate we are somehow worse.

As to the .05% death rate, not sure if that was based on total population of 136k deaths out of 330 mill population, which would still be way off as that number would be .004% of the total population

it is good to have a lower death rate than the world average - no doubt. It speaks to the quality of our front line health care workers.

i think the pessimism comes because we just don’t seem to be - on the whole - disciplined enough to stop the spread and keep it down.

im sure we can agree that we would be better off with a higher death rate but fewer cases as it would simply mean fewer lives lost.

The US has 4% of the worlds population

if you trust the numbers (and I know many of you don’t)

the U.S. has 24% of the Covid fatalities in the world
136,024/555,977

the U.S. has 26% of the confirmed COVID cases in the world
3,240,424/12,323,502

 

[dieterbrock]

i think the pessimism comes because we just don’t seem to be - on the whole - disciplined enough to stop the spread and keep it down.

Well that is the issue, what "seems to be" is completely dependent on how the media has reported this. And negative, world is ending, fear based reporting always gets the most clicks/views/re-posts...
I dont think anyone thought realistically that we could stop the spread, flatten the curve yes.
From April 21st to June 21st we saw a continuous decrease of hospitalizations from a near high of 59,264 down to 27,948. A 53% reduction over 60 day period. Clearly we had an extended flattening of the curve.

 

[12intheBox]

Well that is the issue, what "seems to be" is completely dependent on how the media has reported this. And negative, world is ending, fear based reporting always gets the most clicks/views/re-posts...
I dont think anyone thought realistically that we could stop the spread, flatten the curve yes.
From April 21st to June 21st we saw a continuous decrease of hospitalizations from a near high of 59,264 down to 27,948. A 53% reduction over 60 day period. Clearly we had an extended flattening of the curve.

Followed by a spike. And isn’t that the issue?

When the Rams start the season 6-0 and end the season 8-8, no one is high fiveing and talking about that great 6-0 start, are they?

And sure, the media is the media - but I’m just going on John Hopkins data here. No spin, no opinion, just data.

 

[bluecoconuts]

Check out this tweet today from the leader of the Federal government - it’s has nothing to do with these notions of radical left or whatever garbage. It’s just a way to defund.

Yesterday the threat from the leader of the Federal government was to defund if public schools didn’t reopen - and now it’s this.

Believe me when i tell you. Public education is about to go extinct. Best make new plans and not depend on free schooling much longer

The overwhelming majority of school funding (88%) comes from local and state sources which the Federal government has no control over.

While the Federal government, or I guess more specifically the executive branch can make a threat like that, the fact is that they really don’t have the teeth to carry out that threat in any meaningful way and I can basically guarantee pretty much every single school knows that, given their have their budget books that tell them. There are tons of ethics requirements and rules that you have to follow with spending money since you use tax payer money as well.

Schools have incentive to be back in session and they know it, but a lack any clear cut followable plan or set of standards makes it very difficult. It’s not just about the students, what happens when already short staff get sick? Who teaches kids if an entire department goes down? Those are logistical questions we dealing with right now, and many more. I’m in some of these meetings, and it’s not simple at all, I don’t envy those who are tasked to solve it.

 

[Merlin]

Five million deaths in just the USA alone!!! NO, the answer is NOT to fuckin party!

Well to be fair my post wasn't only about that. It was supposed to be about the importance of our political asshat leadership getting together to pull us through this by setting a course on the way ahead that doesn't involve hiding.

With a pandemic people are going to die. It's part of nature and part of life. We have the technology to influence that, however that doesn't mean our lives are so valuable that we should hide until this thing is gone. And the job of our leaders is to set that course ahead with the vision they should have in those positions.

But IMO the greed of the medical business side has skewed the numbers to where we don't know wtf is going on. We still don't know the mortality rate of this thing which is horse shit. The political side has done its share too, and I'm not picking on the Dems here btw when you have a dual party system of government this is what it looks like, where one side will do what they can to flip that script even if it means using a catastrophe to polarize things in the direction they want. And please don't run off with the politics in response, trying to avoid all that while observing that we have everything working against us here in terms of knowing what we're dealing with. The business side is crooked, the politicians are crooked, and even the fucking news is crooked.

We need to focus on pushing forward IMO. As I said I'd start with the younger folks (sub 30s) since their mortality rates are quite favorable, they shouldn't be on their asses at home they should be at work with things opened up again. And you phase things from there as a starting point. If and when the hospitalizations start up we adjust moving forward with the knowledge we gain. But the key is moving forward. Pushing that envelope. Schools should be open, as kids can generally handle this thing. If you have an older person in your house you go plan B. And so on. I just don't feel like that is the focus, I feel like the focus is politics as usual and that really pisses me off.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

The overwhelming majority of school funding (88%) comes from local and state sources which the Federal government has no control over.

While the Federal government, or I guess more specifically the executive branch can make a threat like that, the fact is that they really don’t have the teeth to carry out that threat in any meaningful way and I can basically guarantee pretty much every single school knows that, given their have their budget books that tell them. There are tons of ethics requirements and rules that you have to follow with spending money since you use tax payer money as well.

Schools have incentive to be back in session and they know it, but a lack any clear cut followable plan or set of standards makes it very difficult. It’s not just about the students, what happens when already short staff get sick? Who teaches kids if an entire department goes down? Those are logistical questions we dealing with right now, and many more. I’m in some of these meetings, and it’s not simple at all, I don’t envy those who are tasked to solve it.

Yes
but the Fed and State governments are literally robbing money from state coffers meant for public schools to go to private institutions in the form of vouchers and other means - Florida as a huge example. Maybe I should have mentioned it's coming for public education from all angles.

I agree with you on the issues of getting back to school,
but I also firmly believe that those in power (federal and state) want to see the public school system fail miserably so they can promote their aims of privatization, hence the push and hence the lack of planning. cause you know as well as I do that it's all going to end up a disaster unless if we don't have a comprehensive and effective plan moving forward. Until then, a disaster is what these enemies of public education will look to pounce on in their efforts.

 

[Angry Ram]

Any vaccine should be free.
Just my 2 cents

Yup.

The insurance bullshit that will inevitably come with the vaccine scares me a helluva lot more than the rona itself. The amount of poor folk that will need it the most won't be able to afford it, and that's just soooo sad. I'm hoping this will be the event that changes it.

 

[dieterbrock]

Followed by a spike. And isn’t that the issue?

When the Rams start the season 6-0 and end the season 8-8, no one is high fiveing and talking about that great 6-0 start, are they?

And sure, the media is the media - but I’m just going on John Hopkins data here. No spin, no opinion, just data.

Is the season over?
60 days of decrease followed by 10 day spike, totals still far below what were critical levels. And again, testing is also up by a major %, causing more positive results. 19 countries are reporting an uptick as well.
You can choose to follow whatever narrative you choose. Clearly you follow the sky is falling mantra.
I follow the numbers, and as the USA is concerned we are doing our best. Right now we have a couple hot spots, where we have other areas seemingly in control. Just have to keep moving the ball forward
In our 5th month of fighting this virus globally, and the experts still dont even understand how its transmitted. WHO says asymptomatic likely doesnt pass on virus, CDC says they do. And nobody knows how long someone can remain asymptomatic.

 

[RamBall]

Any vaccine should be free.
Just my 2 cents

I dont care what they charge for it as long as its not mandatory. There is no way a vaccine with very little testing for side effects will be safer than a virus with a 99% recovery rate.

 

[12intheBox]

Is the season over?
60 days of decrease followed by 10 day spike, totals still far below what were critical levels. And again, testing is also up by a major %, causing more positive results. 19 countries are reporting an uptick as well.
You can choose to follow whatever narrative you choose. Clearly you follow the sky is falling mantra.
I follow the numbers, and as the USA is concerned we are doing our best. Right now we have a couple hot spots, where we have other areas seemingly in control. Just have to keep moving the ball forward
In our 5th month of fighting this virus globally, and the experts still dont even understand how its transmitted. WHO says asymptomatic likely doesnt pass on virus, CDC says they do. And nobody knows how long someone can remain asymptomatic.

Fair point - the season is not over.

My mantra, since you brought it up, is this. This virus needs to be taken seriously. We need to make sacrifices to protect each other - more-so than we already have. So far, I would say we have not done our best - in fact, I would say we have not done very well at all. I realize this is a source of contention between you and me, and I guess thats just the way it is. You can paint me as chicken little yelling the sky is falling and I tend to look at you as having your head in the sand.

We are very much in harms way right now. We can learn from the tactics and sacrifices that other countries have implemented to better combat this virus. If you really follow the numbers, I don't see how you can't be discouraged by the U.S. trajectory - especially as compared with other countries.

Declaring victory and patting ourselves on the back for a job well done is foolish and is harmful - I personally believe that kind of mindset will lead to additional spread, more hospitals being pressed to capacity, and additional lives lost.

 

[Dieter the Brock]

I dont care what they charge for it as long as its not mandatory. There is no way a vaccine with very little testing for side effects will be safer than a virus with a 99% recovery rate.

They tried to do that in Texas with the human papillomavirus making the vaccine mandatory for public schools - we were like fuck that. Luckily we were able to homeschool. We thought it was totally fucked to have kids forced into vaccination for an STD. It’s like my kids aren’t fucking whores. Anyway, I’m with you on that. But I doubt it becomes mandatory. At least I hope not.

As far as side effects go for little testing, let’s wait to see what happens before making that broad of a claim. But yeah I love Range Rovers. And when they change models you never ever buy the first year - you wait at least to year 3 cause by then all the bugs are fixed. So yeah it may be a bit risky, but it’s arrival will at least allow us to get back to normal here soon. It will allow for more public confidence and we can turn the corner on this pandemic

 

[Dieter the Brock]

Fair point - the season is not over.

My mantra, since you brought it up, is this. This virus needs to be taken seriously. We need to make sacrifices to protect each other - more-so than we already have. So far, I would say we have not done our best - in fact, I would say we have not done very well at all. I realize this is a source of contention between you and me, and I guess thats just the way it is. You can paint me as chicken little yelling the sky is falling and I tend to look at you as having your head in the sand.

We are very much in harms way right now. We can learn from the tactics and sacrifices that other countries have implemented to better combat this virus. If you really follow the numbers, I don't see how you can't be discouraged by the U.S. trajectory - especially as compared with other countries.

Declaring victory and patting ourselves on the back for a job well done is foolish and is harmful - I personally believe that kind of mindset will lead to additional spread, more hospitals being pressed to capacity, and additional lives lost.

At the same time this thing is here to stay. Nobody is getting out of this thing scott free.

I mean it’s classic to read Kurtfaulk talked shit about how Australia was so much better than the USA and saying we were fucked - then the next thing you know Melbourne is on massive lockdown. This is a damned if you do damned if you don’t situation.

The fact is the United States should be leading the charge around the world as an example of how to win, it’s not — but with that said we are doing just the same if not better than anyone else in the world except for places like Greenland and shit. USA is a huge place with lots of different cultures and states. We aren’t like some dinky Norway or some desolate Mongolia.

With that said we are doing well considering

 

[EastRam]

Is the season over?
60 days of decrease followed by 10 day spike, totals still far below what were critical levels. And again, testing is also up by a major %, causing more positive results. 19 countries are reporting an uptick as well.
You can choose to follow whatever narrative you choose. Clearly you follow the sky is falling mantra.
I follow the numbers, and as the USA is concerned we are doing our best. Right now we have a couple hot spots, where we have other areas seemingly in control. Just have to keep moving the ball forward
In our 5th month of fighting this virus globally, and the experts still dont even understand how its transmitted. WHO says asymptomatic likely doesnt pass on virus, CDC says they do. And nobody knows how long someone can remain asymptomatic.

Doing our best.

Far from it.

I dont care what they charge for it as long as its not mandatory. There is no way a vaccine with very little testing for side effects will be safer than a virus with a 99% recovery rate.

I too believe more extensive testing should be done to determine the side effects for a vaccine or any drug for that matter.

I’m just pointing out there shouldn’t be a charge for anyone in the world that wants the vaccine when one is available.

So we will see just how humane us humans are.