Changes coming with or without Jeff Fisher

[LumberTubs]

One thing I've never understood is why a HC like Fisher is even having anything more than a passing influence on his team's offense. Ok I get that he is the one who should be telling the OC when to go for it on 4th down, for example, but the overall approach to an offense should not, in my view, be dictated by a defensively minded HC. Its not his area of expertise and, as a former defender himself, why does he even have an offensive philosophy (power running; Fisher-ball)? Fisher can't even get Fisher-ball right! There are a number of teams out there that do it so much better than he does.

Listening to the Around the NFL podcast earlier this week, Chris Wesseling (one of the best in the biz in my opinion) said something like none of the top 12 offenses in the league have the HC calling plays. He was saying this as a justification for his view that great OCs like McDaniels and Kyle Shanahan won't make good HC's. He also cited John Harbaugh's background as a special teams guy which allows him to leave the business of defense and offense to his respective co-ordinators leaving him to organise things overall.

This makes perfect sense to me and I wish Fisher would do the same. I actually think he'd be an excellent HC if he just left his co-ordinators to do their jobs.

 

[Faceplant]

Is there any hard evidence that Fisher actually does mettle with the offense?? Seems like we run with that as fact round these parts, but I am not sure I have ever heard the coaches say as much. I know he hires some uninspiring (at least unknown) OCs though.

 

[dieterbrock]

If there is a genuine fear of losing Williams, and the future of the team hangs in the balance of hiring an OC and giving him free reign, why not just give Williams the HC job and keep Fassel as st coach?

 

[den-the-coach]

However, the Chargers choking late in games is something the Chargers fans jest about at this point. It's McCoy's specialty.

It's actually a San Diego specialty...Under Schottenheimer, Turner and now McCoy...Part of the reason I can't stand the Chargers is there were times they had the New England Patriots defeated only to choke the game away.

The reason that everybody falls after they intercept a pass towards the end of the game is because of Wes Welker stripping a defensive back of the Chargers after he intercepted a Brady pass, then fumbled the ball back to the Patriots who went on to win the game in the closing seconds...Can't stand the Chargers!

 

[thirteen28]

Is there any hard evidence that Fisher actually does mettle with the offense?? Seems like we run with that as fact round these parts, but I am not sure I have ever heard the coaches say as much. I know he hires some uninspiring (at least unknown) OCs though.

I don't think he meddles with is per se, at least not on a playcaling basis. But I'm sure he has high-level input into the gameplan, and he's the one that sets the overall philosophy of safety first, minimizing risks, and so on. And I would think in-game, he would be the one who would decide when it's time to sit on a lead.

 

[Bruce2980]

I don't see how quitting on a team in the middle of the season helps him get a job any where in the NFL.

 

[thirteen28]

Of all of the potential OC's listed here, Turner is the one I would want, and Shanahan is one I definitely don't want.

First of all, Shanahan - I certainly respect his body of work, and he's an excellent coach. But there are two things that could come with him, one almost certainly and one possible, and those things would push the Rams playoff chances down the road a couple of years. First of all, Shanahan is a proponent of the zone blocking scheme and one-cut runing game. The Rams have tried that this year, and you've seen the results. We have big maulers, not the agile linemen required for the zone blocking scheme, and the results (miserable) are speaking for themselves. That's also why Gurley has regressed, as that scheme doesn't give him options - he makes his one cut and runs. We've seen him time and time again run right into a place where there is no hole, but he's probably doing that according to the design of the play. With the phyiscal type of lineman that we have, we are much better suited for a power blocking scheme. A coordinator that doesn't bring that means we have to rebuild the entire OL instead of simply shifting the scheme to play to their strengths.

The second thing Shanahan could bring with him is a 3-4 defense, which he's taken pretty much everywhere he's gone. Who here is ready to rebiuld our defense? Anyone? .... Anyone? I didn't think so.

Turner on the other hand brings a power blocking scheme combined with a modern passing attack. Turner has always done well with big, mauling offensive linemen instead of the type that are best suited for zone blocking. Thus, Turner is a better fit for what we already have on the roster. It's also a better fit for Gurley, as it allows him more freedom to read the blocks and to pick and choose his holes. He had that freedom last year and it worked out pretty good. He doesn't have that freedom this year. Turner's system, the Coryell system, is also easier to learn. Martz installed his version in one offseason with the Rams, and Bradford learned Turner's system pretty quickly. Norv is a good teacher as well.

Another plus with Turner is his use of TE's ... if he comes in, Tyler Higbee becomes a big time weapon. In the past, guys like Jay Novecek and Antonio Gates evolved into some of the best TE's in the game in a Turner offense.

I would also think that Turner would have a clue how to utilize Tavon to his maximum effectiveness in both the running and passing games. Nobody here has ever fully been able to utilize Austin in the passing game, and Cignetti (believe it or not) seemed to use him the best of anybody in the running game (and it's an indictment of Boras that he hasn't been able to duplicate that success after having been shown how it can be done).

I understand the hesitation based on the red-flag of Turner resigning from Minnesota mid-season, and agree that's a concern. But don't forget that Zimmerman is an uber-douche, so that probably had something to do with it as well.

I'm really not keen on Fisher staying, but if he is going to, I could be on board if Turner was brought in.

 

[LACHAMP46]

One thing I've never understood is why a HC like Fisher is even having anything more than a passing influence on his team's offense.

Is there any hard evidence that Fisher actually does mettle with the offense?? Seems like we run with that as fact round these parts, but I am not sure I have ever heard the coaches say as much.

I don't think he meddles with is per se, at least not on a playcaling basis. But I'm sure he has high-level input into the gameplan

Hmmm....interesting question. My take, well my evidence that he does is, check him out during practices...When I went to practice, Fish is all over the offensive side of the field...Talking to Boras...talking to Weinke...talking to the QB's, the WR's...Hell, I thought he had either a play sheet, or some time of clipboard in his hands. It could be some schedule of practice, but it appeared to be the same type of thing they use in games to call plays. I don't think he calls plays, but oversees them and makes suggestions. Which Boras listens to...

 

[Bruce2980]

Is there any hard evidence that Fisher actually does mettle with the offense?? Seems like we run with that as fact round these parts, but I am not sure I have ever heard the coaches say as much. I know he hires some uninspiring (at least unknown) OCs though.

How about the idea that all of his QBs have very similar stats on all of Fishers teams going all the way back to Houston. Just coincidence?

 

[Bruce2980]

True, maybe he was already promised the OC job in LA? That would be cool, but very, very doubtful. If this team was that smart, they wouldn't be 4-6 for the last hundred years.

 

[Merlin]

I understand the hesitation based on the red-flag of Turner resigning from Minnesota mid-season, and agree that's a concern. But don't forget that Zimmerman is an uber-douche, so that probably had something to do with it as well.

You make some valid points but you overlook one thing: Norv isn't head coaching material. He's like a lot of strong coordinators in that way and those guys are the true wealth in the NFL if you have them on your staff.

Plus, his plan was retirement before this season even began. He just jumped early due to the BS behind the scenes in Minnesota. Do you honestly think he's worth the risk right now when he might not have the energy to devote all that time to fielding a winning product? No way man. Of all the names thrown around here in this thread, Norv is the one that I am certain I do not want running this team.

Go younger, sure. Get an older guy who has proved he can do it, sure. But do not get an older guy who has not proven he could do it plus who has been flirting with retirement for the past couple seasons.

 

[OnceARam]

If there is a genuine fear of losing Williams, and the future of the team hangs in the balance of hiring an OC and giving him free reign, why not just give Williams the HC job and keep Fassel as st coach?

NFL politics I imagine. Plus I doubt he can hire a better offensive staff than what we currently have. but maybe?

 

[kurtfaulk]

It's actually a San Diego specialty...Under Schottenheimer, Turner and now McCoy...Part of the reason I can't stand the Chargers is there were times they had the New England Patriots defeated only to choke the game away.

The reason that everybody falls after they intercept a pass towards the end of the game is because of Wes Welker stripping a defensive back of the Chargers after he intercepted a Brady pass, then fumbled the ball back to the Patriots who went on to win the game in the closing seconds...Can't stand the Chargers!

Ah man, that was one of the all time bonehead plays I think I've ever witnessed. Take the knee or just knock the ball down as it was 4th down and the game was over. So irritating how the patriots always get that sort of luck. Was schottenheimer fired after this game? The chargers had had enough of getting knocked out in such fashion.

.

 

[thirteen28]

You make some valid points but you overlook one thing: Norv isn't head coaching material. He's like a lot of strong coordinators in that way and those guys are the true wealth in the NFL if you have them on your staff.

Plus, his plan was retirement before this season even began. He just jumped early due to the BS behind the scenes in Minnesota. Do you honestly think he's worth the risk right now when he might not have the energy to devote all that time to fielding a winning product? No way man. Of all the names thrown around here in this thread, Norv is the one that I am certain I do not want running this team.

Go younger, sure. Get an older guy who has proved he can do it, sure. But do not get an older guy who has not proven he could do it plus who has been flirting with retirement for the past couple seasons.

I wasn't talking about him as a head coach, but rather as the OC in the event Fisher is retained but is forced to get a coordinator that knows what the hell he's doing.

That being said, if his plan truly was retirement, it's a moot point. Wouldn't hurt to ask him who he recommends though

 

[PressureD41]

Here is my take FWIW:

I still think if we can add a buyable offense Coordinator we would not be in this situation Fisher tried to work with continuity by making two pour in-house hires thus he may have coachedhis last season for the Rams...
If he could add a vet OC I honestly believe we could turn this around with a few shrewd moves in the off-season to help our offense I think we would be on the right track. Personally I do not think much of Roman and would be pissed if he was hired in any position.

I strongly would bang the table for hiring Norm Turner as a OC and letting him hand pick his staff. I would also add an extra OL coach to help coach up our guys. Always been big on a two OL coach.

Now if in fact silent Sam Blows shit up this is my suggestions:

I have always respected Rob Chudzinski

http://www.colts.com/team/coaches/Rob-Chudzinski/0c83c098-46cf-46fd-8cd0-d650a9cba7c0

Also I would love to get my hands on Eric Zamoese (14 years as QB coach)
http://www.bengals.com/team/coaches...4bfc-9b9e-601fc3d0ae76?qwr=fullsite_temporary

Ex Ram and loved his father! I honestly think he is over due for a HC job.

And David Shaw if he is even willing to leave Standford. Reports "say" his is happy and isn't looking to leave.

Keep Fisher Williams & Fassel and get us a vet OC that can develop QBs and can call plays!!!!!!

 

[jrry32]

It's actually a San Diego specialty...Under Schottenheimer, Turner and now McCoy...Part of the reason I can't stand the Chargers is there were times they had the New England Patriots defeated only to choke the game away.

The reason that everybody falls after they intercept a pass towards the end of the game is because of Wes Welker stripping a defensive back of the Chargers after he intercepted a Brady pass, then fumbled the ball back to the Patriots who went on to win the game in the closing seconds...Can't stand the Chargers!

Marlon McCree

I think it was Troy Brown who stripped him.

 

[jrry32]

I don't think Norv made this decision without a push. Minnesota was growing quite frustrated with his refusal to accept that his OL couldn't block well enough for Norv to run his vertically-oriented Air Coryell. Minnesota had the same issues the year before with Norv. I think it was a mutual parting of ways.

Look at who they hired to replace him. An OC known for the short passing game.

Of all of the potential OC's listed here, Turner is the one I would want, and Shanahan is one I definitely don't want.

First of all, Shanahan - I certainly respect his body of work, and he's an excellent coach. But there are two things that could come with him, one almost certainly and one possible, and those things would push the Rams playoff chances down the road a couple of years. First of all, Shanahan is a proponent of the zone blocking scheme and one-cut runing game. The Rams have tried that this year, and you've seen the results. We have big maulers, not the agile linemen required for the zone blocking scheme, and the results (miserable) are speaking for themselves. That's also why Gurley has regressed, as that scheme doesn't give him options - he makes his one cut and runs. We've seen him time and time again run right into a place where there is no hole, but he's probably doing that according to the design of the play. With the phyiscal type of lineman that we have, we are much better suited for a power blocking scheme. A coordinator that doesn't bring that means we have to rebuild the entire OL instead of simply shifting the scheme to play to their strengths.

The second thing Shanahan could bring with him is a 3-4 defense, which he's taken pretty much everywhere he's gone. Who here is ready to rebiuld our defense? Anyone? .... Anyone? I didn't think so.

Shanahan would be OC. He'd have no say over the defense.

That's the opposite of how the Shanahan-Gibbs ZBS works. The Shanahan-Gibbs ZBS isn't designed to go through a specific gap. It's designed for the HB to determine the gap based on his vision and ability to press the LOS.

And Shanahan and his cohorts are known for being OL gurus.

Turner on the other hand brings a power blocking scheme combined with a modern passing attack. Turner has always done well with big, mauling offensive linemen instead of the type that are best suited for zone blocking. Thus, Turner is a better fit for what we already have on the roster. It's also a better fit for Gurley, as it allows him more freedom to read the blocks and to pick and choose his holes. He had that freedom last year and it worked out pretty good. He doesn't have that freedom this year. Turner's system, the Coryell system, is also easier to learn. Martz installed his version in one offseason with the Rams, and Bradford learned Turner's system pretty quickly. Norv is a good teacher as well.

Another plus with Turner is his use of TE's ... if he comes in, Tyler Higbee becomes a big time weapon. In the past, guys like Jay Novecek and Antonio Gates evolved into some of the best TE's in the game in a Turner offense.

I would also think that Turner would have a clue how to utilize Tavon to his maximum effectiveness in both the running and passing games. Nobody here has ever fully been able to utilize Austin in the passing game, and Cignetti (believe it or not) seemed to use him the best of anybody in the running game (and it's an indictment of Boras that he hasn't been able to duplicate that success after having been shown how it can be done).

It's the opposite, my friend. The power blocking scheme tells the HB which hole to run through. The HB can choose not to run through that hole. But it's designed to go through a certain hole.

And our blocking scheme hasn't changed over the past two years. It's been the same scheme for Gurley. We're a hybrid scheme. We run both power and zone blocking. Gurley doesn't lack freedom this year. Our OL just sucks at run blocking.

As for Norv's modern passing game, I have to disagree with that. Vikings fans have wanted Norv gone for years because he refused to adapt his passing scheme to what they had on offense. He continued to run deep drops and vertical passing concepts with a bad OL and a QB who didn't throw vertically well (Bridgewater).

Norv was a brilliant offensive mind. He still likely is. But he refuses to adapt to the modern game. He's actually a lot like Fisher. He's stuck in his ways.

I understand the hesitation based on the red-flag of Turner resigning from Minnesota mid-season, and agree that's a concern. But don't forget that Zimmerman is an uber-douche, so that probably had something to do with it as well.

I'm really not keen on Fisher staying, but if he is going to, I could be on board if Turner was brought in.

Zimmer really isn't an uber-douche. We don't like him because of last year, but he's actually incredibly well-liked around the NFL by coaches and players alike.

Norv Turner is an upgrade over what we currently have. And Fisher being completely hands off with the offense would be an upgrade. However, Norv Turner isn't what I want in an OC if Fisher stays on.

If there is a genuine fear of losing Williams, and the future of the team hangs in the balance of hiring an OC and giving him free reign, why not just give Williams the HC job and keep Fassel as st coach?

No. Williams isn't HC material imo.