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DVontel

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i know what RW does against the Rams he loses a lot, he takes a lot of sacks and he gets hit a ton. RW is rare for a running QB, he is pretty thick, KM is very thin. KM is not going to take the hits RW does and make it through a 16 game season.
KM isn’t thin, especially if you compare him to a guy like Lamar Jackson, who took a good amount of hits & was still able to stay on his feet. It’s not like RW is out there getting hit the equivalent of a Mortal Kombat character suffering fatality. Doubt he’ll even take the hits RW receives since he’s more elusive than him anyway, but the world will see.
 

DVontel

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No, but QBs who averaged over 70 yards per game rushing and 10 rushes a game ARE running QBs. And while an occasional one who stops doing it very often can succeed in the NFL, most end up getting banged up so much that they stop being effective, especially since if they normally take off if the first reads aren't there, WRs tend to stop their routes and switch to blocking instead.
Running QBs to me are ones who still need refinement in the passing area. Not guys like a Russell Wilson, Baker Mayfield, Deshaun Watson, & soon to be Kyler Murray.
 

RamsOfCastamere

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And those other teams have shitty run games. Notice that DAL, NO, NYG have higher under center%'s, even NE.
 

Akrasian

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KM isn’t thin, especially if you compare him to a guy like Lamar Jackson, who took a good amount of hits & was still able to stay on his feet. It’s not like RW is out there getting hit the equivalent of a Mortal Kombat character suffering fatality. Doubt he’ll even take the hits RW receives since he’s more elusive than him anyway, but the world will see.

He's 207, at least at the combine. Not thin, but not near as heavy as most modern QBs who last running frequently. Comparable to Wilson - who has been amazingly durable by running QB standards. Most running QBs are more like RG3 who is bigger than Murray, but still ended up busted up thanks to his running. We'll see - but I would bet against Murray having a long, effective career. The defensive players are so big and fast now that it's too easy for QBs to get busted up even if on paper they are excellent runners. All the more so if they are significantly smaller than the guys hitting them.
 

Akrasian

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Running QBs to me are ones who still need refinement in the passing area. Not guys like a Russell Wilson, Baker Mayfield, Deshaun Watson, & soon to be Kyler Murray.

No, if you get a significant amount of your yardage by running, you are a running QB. And remember - Oklahoma had a lot more talented players surrounding him than most of the teams they played. He won't have that advantage in Arizona, but WILL have multiple teams in his own division with very good defensive lines, just looking to hit him repeatedly.
 

DVontel

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He's 207, at least at the combine. Not thin, but not near as heavy as most modern QBs who last running frequently. Comparable to Wilson - who has been amazingly durable by running QB standards. Most running QBs are more like RG3 who is bigger than Murray, but still ended up busted up thanks to his running. We'll see - but I would bet against Murray having a long, effective career. The defensive players are so big and fast now that it's too easy for QBs to get busted up even if on paper they are excellent runners. All the more so if they are significantly smaller than the guys hitting them.
They busted because they didn’t know how to avoid hits. RG3 had that problem since college yet never changed his ways & paid the price for it. The same was starting to happen with Luck, but he knew he had to dial it back a little & he did. If you watched Kyler’s tape, he’s very smart at avoiding hits & how to take them. The rules compliment the QBs so much nowadays it’s going to be damn near impossible to lay a vicious hit on him.
 

DVontel

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No, if you get a significant amount of your yardage by running, you are a running QB. And remember - Oklahoma had a lot more talented players surrounding him than most of the teams they played. He won't have that advantage in Arizona, but WILL have multiple teams in his own division with very good defensive lines, just looking to hit him repeatedly.
Nah, if you’re still a good passer, you’re a QB with great mobility/athleticism. That’s Kyler. He’s just as good as a passer than he is a runner.

I mean, that’s what happens when a QB gets drafted high? I doubt the multiple teams in his own division will see & have seen a QB like Kyler before. I usually don’t boost up players dramatically until they hit the field, but I think he’s special. I know the defensive lines would much rather go against Rosen than they will Kyler.
 

Akrasian

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The rules compliment the QBs so much nowadays it’s going to be damn near impossible to lay a vicious hit on him.

Hahahahaha!

There are still vicious hits - legal and illegal. It is amazingly naive to think that he won't have a number of vicious hits, especially once he leaves the pocket, where a LOT of his protections expire. And where he'll be meeting players significantly bigger than him, and nearly as fast. Oh, he'll have some success at times - but he'll also be banged up hitting the ground hard. And QBs, unlike running backs or wide receivers, normally don't get to take plays off.
 

DVontel

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Hahahahaha!

There are still vicious hits - legal and illegal. It is amazingly naive to think that he won't have a number of vicious hits, especially once he leaves the pocket, where a LOT of his protections expire. And where he'll be meeting players significantly bigger than him, and nearly as fast. Oh, he'll have some success at times - but he'll also be banged up hitting the ground hard. And QBs, unlike running backs or wide receivers, normally don't get to take plays off.
Okay, if I’m naive, then please show me some vicious hits that QBs took last year, preferably that are closer to his height, since you believe all the big & bad defensive players will rip his body into 4 different pieces.
 

Akrasian

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Nah, if you’re still a good passer, you’re a QB with great mobility/athleticism. That’s Kyler. He’s just as good as a passer than he is a runner.

Okay, redefine the English language. To everybody else who follows football, a guy who runs 10 times a game like he did in college is a running QB. The problem is - in the NFL if he tries to be that effective as a runner he will get popped - hard - repeatedly, and he just isn't that large. When he has to cut, and a 250 pound linebacker who runs a 4.6 hits him full on, at some point he will be hurt. It's wishful thinking that he is the blessed one who is beyond physics.

It remains to be seen if he can cut way down on the running, AND be effective as a passer, since his running undoubtedly opened up options against college (not pro) level secondaries.
 

DVontel

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Okay, redefine the English language. To everybody else who follows football, a guy who runs 10 times a game like he did in college is a running QB. The problem is - in the NFL if he tries to be that effective as a runner he will get popped - hard - repeatedly, and he just isn't that large. When he has to cut, and a 250 pound linebacker who runs a 4.6 hits him full on, at some point he will be hurt. It's wishful thinking that he is the blessed one who is beyond physics.

It remains to be seen if he can cut way down on the running, AND be effective as a passer, since his running undoubtedly opened up options against college (not pro) level secondaries.
Well, you don’t speak for everyone else, so yea. You just speak for Akrasian.

He’s obviously not going to average 10 rushing attempts per game in the league, but I bet 5-7 is a good prediction. Is that a decent amount to you? Does that still fall under the “Running QB” label?
 

Akrasian

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Well, you don’t speak for everyone else, so yea. You just speak for Akrasian.

He’s obviously not going to average 10 rushing attempts per game in the league, but I bet 5-7 is a good prediction. Is that a decent amount to you? Does that still fall under the “Running QB” label?

Yes. How many QBs run 80-100 times a season? How many of those end up on the injured list? NFL players are much stronger and faster than college players, especially second level teams that college players generally put up a large amount of their stats. NFL players end up bigger, stronger, and quite often faster than they were in college.

There are reasons that NFL teams rarely depend on running QBs. They get killed by 240 pound, extremely fast, linebackers. Not every time - but it only takes once or twice.

Heck, Daunte Culpepper was a great running QB - until he finally got the right hit. And he weighed about 25% more than Kyler, in an era when defenders weren't as big and fast. Basically, counting on running QBs is a fool's game.
 

DVontel

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Yes. How many QBs run 80-100 times a season? How many of those end up on the injured list? NFL players are much stronger and faster than college players, especially second level teams that college players generally put up a large amount of their stats. NFL players end up bigger, stronger, and quite often faster than they were in college.

There are reasons that NFL teams rarely depend on running QBs. They get killed by 240 pound, extremely fast, linebackers. Not every time - but it only takes once or twice.

Heck, Daunte Culpepper was a great running QB - until he finally got the right hit. And he weighed about 25% more than Kyler, in an era when defenders weren't as big and fast. Basically, counting on running QBs is a fool's game.
I only asked that amount because that’s what Russell Wilson has been averaging for his career & he seems to be doing s fine job for himself.

You can still go along with my your “running QB” label, but half of the league are filled with young QBs who have good mobility. Obviously, a shift in football as time continues to pass.

Seems the short mobile QBs like Russ & Baker have no problems with injuries, dating back to college. Pretty much like Kyler, but you already have it wrapped around your head that a 6’4 250 lb is going to crush his skull & that’s going to be the end of it.
 

Akrasian

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Seems the short mobile QBs like Russ & Baker have no problems with injuries, dating back to college. Pretty much like Kyler, but you already have it wrapped around your head that a 6’4 250 lb is going to crush his skull & that’s going to be the end of it.

Yeah, there's a huge difference between Russell Wilson, and a guy with one season in the NFL. Culpepper lasted a while despite being a running QB who was actually bigger than virtually all linebackers. But running means you get hit repeatedly, and it shortened his career.

It's daydreaming to think that a small running QB will last when almost all of them after prospering a little while, end up with a short career. Yes, maybe Kyler will be in the very small percentage who last - but more likely he will be hit by a 240 pound LB - maybe a legal hit, maybe not - and end up not the same. Then while trying the same run while not quite as fast will be hit again. That's the norm in the NFL, and hiding your head in the sand doesn't change it. There are reasons why most NFL teams choose to protect their QBs, even if running for a first down multiple times a game gives them a short term advantage. And even if Murray is faster than most QBs - when he has to cut to avoid somebody he will slow down enough at some point for a much bigger player to hit him as hard as possible. That's what NFL players do. There are reasons that running QBs don't last. Even Wilson doesn't run near as much as he used to.
 

Loyal

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I only asked that amount because that’s what Russell Wilson has been averaging for his career & he seems to be doing s fine job for himself.

You can still go along with my your “running QB” label, but half of the league are filled with young QBs who have good mobility. Obviously, a shift in football as time continues to pass.

Seems the short mobile QBs like Russ & Baker have no problems with injuries, dating back to college. Pretty much like Kyler, but you already have it wrapped around your head that a 6’4 250 lb is going to crush his skull & that’s going to be the end of it.
RW is the exception to the rule, isn't he? Baker Mayfield is going into his second year, so we ill see about his durability this year maybe? Pointing back to college is irrelevant isn't it, because there have been many small mobile QB's that never made it to the NFL. As for mobile QB's like Carson Wentz (injured), Cam Newton(injured), Johnny Manziel (Bust)...Drew Brees is a better example for you, except that he didn't usher in a new era of short mobile QB's, he was just another exception to the rule.

Maybe your rookie does well? Aaron Donald will see how sturdy he is....
 
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OC--LeftCoast

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I’ll say this much about Wussell, he may get his rushing yards but he also knows when the hell to slide to avoid the big hit

Unlike Jimmy G String :dizzy:
 

RamsOfCastamere

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Many college teams run the ball as much as they pass out of that formation...... just sayin'
This is also the NFL and AD can beat the ball to the qb. Not much you can do really outside of draws and the pistol. RBs like a running start, I'm sure DJ isn't too happy if true.
 

CGI_Ram

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http://www.espn.com/blog/arizona-ca...ry-winning-ways-will-be-challenged-in-arizona

Can Kyler Murray continue legendary winning ways with Cardinals?

TEMPE, Ariz. -- Kyler Murray's high school résumé is a thing of football lore in Texas.

Forty-two wins. No losses. Three straight state championships. Three championship game MVPs. Gatorade Player of the Year.

"It's unbelievable," said Tom Westerberg, Murray's coach at Allen High School. "We played at the highest classification in the state of Texas, and to know that we ran the table three times with him, it's unbelievable."

Unbelievable? Yes. Incredible? Yes. New? No.

Murray, the quarterback taken No. 1 overall in the NFL draft last month by the Arizona Cardinals, didn't start winning when he transferred to Allen before his sophomore year. By then, he'd been doing it for years. All he has ever done is win, and he has done it at every level. Now he joins a Cardinals team that finished 3-13 last season and has reached the playoffs just four times this millennium.

Special from the start

Kyle Nelson was on the board of the Lewisville Football Association in 2002 when a friend told him he had to watch one of the flag football players in the 5-6 age group. Nelson, understandably, wasn't interested.

Then he watched Murray -- as a 5-year-old -- score five touchdowns in the first half.

"I was like, 'Wow, this kid is pretty special,'" said Nelson, now the league president. "I just remember watching him just pretty much dominate that game as a 5-year-old."

Murray dominated the Lewisville Football Association for the next seven years, losing just one game, as Nelson recalls, and winning six league titles out of a possible seven. And Murray did it often by playing against older players. Because of his August birthday, Murray was always among the youngest kids in his age group.

Nelson saw firsthand how tough it was to beat Murray: He coached the team that gave Murray what's believed to be his lone youth football loss, in 2006, when Murray was 9.

"It was a pretty big deal when that happened," Nelson said. "I've been doing this 19, 20 years now. He's the best youth football player I've seen. Hands down."

By the time Murray finally took the field at Huffines Middle School, his reputation preceded him. Dick Olin, then the head coach at Lewisville, installed a watered-down version of the varsity's scheme, which was essentially the Air Raid, for Murray to run.

It didn't take long for Murray to pick up the offense, said Heath Naragon, his eighth-grade coach at Huffines, so he'd go back to Olin and get another part of the playbook to install. Murray would absorb it and Naragon would go back to Olin. It got to the point where Murray's eighth-grade team was running an offense more complex than the junior varsity but not quite as complicated as the varsity.

"He was very knowledgeable," Naragon said. "I've been doing this, I don't know, 11 years now and I've never seen anybody like that."

It translated into sheer dominance on the field. Huffines lost once that season, in the semifinals of the middle school playoffs -- because Murray missed the game with a shoulder injury.

What stood out to Naragon beyond Murray's arm strength, which he believed was better than 99 percent of Texas high school quarterbacks as a seventh-grader, was Murray's poise.

"He doesn't get rattled," Naragon said. "Nothing really affects him."

The best from Texas?

And as good as Murray was in eighth grade, he was better in ninth. He began showing an advanced understanding of Olin's pass-happy scheme after having been in it for a year, and as a ninth-grader he started taking ownership of it.

Sonny Dack, the varsity running-backs coach, helped Olin and Naragon coach the freshman team. He saw Murray begin holding his teammates accountable, whether it was the offensive line, the running backs or the wide receivers. He'd let the receivers know if their routes weren't crisp enough or work to figure out why they dropped a pass. Murray had an encouraging nature when getting on his teammates. He began running parts of the offense at the line of scrimmage. He'd audible in and out of plays.

"He knew what everybody was supposed to be doing and he expected him to do it perfect," Dack said. "He delivered and then some once he got to the ninth grade."

No one could figure out a way to stop him, Olin said. And Murray's height never mattered.

"Everybody told me, you're too small," said Murray, who today is listed at 5-foot-10. "You just learn to deal with it."

Olin, who remains close with Murray -- he eventually drove him to a visit at Texas Tech, where Kliff Kingsbury was coaching -- was fired after the 2011-12 school year. Murray transferred to Allen High School, where the rest, as they say, is history. Quite literally.

By the end of high school, Murray firmly established himself as the front-runner to be named the best high school quarterback Texas has ever seen.

Murray dominated his competition, throwing for 10,386 yards and 117 touchdowns while running for 4,129 yards and 69 touchdowns. His senior year showing of 4,713 yards and 54 touchdowns earned him the prestigious five-star rating by every major recruiting service.

"I had never seen anybody like him," Olin said. "Kyler was the best I'd ever been around and I was around some really good ones."

When he finally got his chance in college, he picked up right where he had left off. Murray went 12-2 in 2018, his only season starting at Oklahoma, and won the Heisman Trophy after passing for 4,361 yards with 42 touchdowns and seven interceptions. He also rushed for 1,001 yards and 12 more TDs.

The next test

Murray enters the NFL with plenty of accolades but a difficult test ahead. Arizona hasn't gone to the playoffs since 2015, which was also the last time it had a winning record. Murray will be charged with resurrecting an offense that was one of the worst in the league last season.

Murray's legend as a high school player is known by some in his new organization. Fellow rookie wide receiver Hakeem Butler, who went to high school in Houston, had heard about the kid who accounted for something like 25 touchdowns in his first four games.

"I was like, 'Nah, this kid ain't human,'" Butler said.

Even Kingsbury, who starred at New Braunfels High School outside San Antonio and is a member of the Texas High School Football Hall of Fame, couldn't explain what it was like to be a high school star of Murray's caliber in Texas.

"I can't. I've never seen one -- that big of a star," Kingsbury said. "He was the best player arguably to ever come through the state. When you talk about [42-0] and all the records he broke and things of that nature, I have no idea what it feels like."

Yeah, your team has a quarterback. But for how long does it have thatquarterback, and how sure is it that he's the one?

Some NFL teams are married to their quarterbacks. Some are just starting to get serious. Some are sitting across from their quarterbacks at a fancy restaurant blatantly eyeing a quarterback at the next table. It's a complex and varied landscape, and it can be confusing.

So we thought we'd take a look at the state of the various team-quarterback relationships around the league, to see just how committed each team is to its current starter. To do this, we focused almost entirely on the contract situations -- how much guaranteed money is left on each deal, for how many years, and more.

If you follow the NFL, you know contracts are usually loaded with funny math and fake numbers. Kirk Cousins is making his money the next two years no matter what. Andy Dalton ... can't be so sure. The only way to really examine how tied your team is to its quarterback is to dig into the numbers and see how much it still really owes and for how long. That's why we ranked every team from 1-32 -- 1 is the highest level of commitment, 32 is the lowest -- based on the cold, hard dollar figures. We also factored in the different types of current QB contracts within their own tiers.

So dive in, and find each fan base's answer to the questions of, "How much longer do we have this guy?" or, in some cases, "How much longer are we stuck with this guy?"
 

Mojo Ram

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I do think there's something to be said about these dual threat QB's and elusiveness. Most of them haven't been elusive, meaning hard to track and hit at the end of a play(scrambling). There are a few exceptions. Wilson, although for some reason the Rams have historically tracked and hit him often. Mike Vick was a guy who i would consider elusive. The smaller guys at any skill position are harder to track, but they do inevitably get hit and it's a fact that smaller guys have a higher chance of getting hurt when they get hit. Although, some men are more brittle than others no matter their size, that's a different conversation.

I have no doubt Murray will be elusive, but my take is still that his shelf life will be reduced as a result of his diminutive size. Little guys in the NFL at any skill position that have long and productive careers taking hits are rare. I think of guys like Sproles, Steve Smith, Drew Brees....they are the exception to the rule.