10 things with Joe Noteboom

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Ram65

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No doubt. And I'm sure all that relates back to the way so many spread offenses don't have linemen with their hands in the ground. Sort of insinuates that using FA on the OL is a good approach with cap space, let some other team eat the painful dev years. You're still gonna have to draft/develop but boy you can cut some corners by hitting on that FA.

And you can ruin your team over paying for free agents. You can also ruin chemistry along the oline by continually shuffling free agents in and out every year or two. Each route has its pluses and minuses. Personally I’d rather develop our own guys.

It is time to continue to develop the young talent. Funny but, at the same time one solid free agent can steady the offensive line and improve the other positions. Rams getting Adam Timmerman comes to mind as a big help in solidifying that era's offensive line. Of course having Orlando Pace was a big plus the Rams don't have now. If the Rams aren't going to draft an offensive lineman early this year then one free agent pickup instead of resigning Whitford could be the answer. It could a mid-level free agent better. The Rams have to improve the offensive as soon as possible.
 

fanotodd

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I was very optimistic of Noteboom taking over for Whitworth in 2020 after seeing him during preseason and spelling "the mountain" during the regular season. I was on record, however, being quite skeptical about Noteboom moving to LG. I had never seen him play that position and had never even heard of him getting reps at the position until it was revealed he would start at LG.

Not getting him and Allen reps during preseason was a mistake.

AFA Evans being an option at LT, I have to say:
neither Evans nor Edwards impressed me at OT during preseason. They both stunk to my eye. Then Edwards got a chance to play at LG and, again in my eye, looked promising. The combination of Edwards and Evans on the ridt side also had some good games, but I'm not yet sold that Evans can slide over and start at LT. If that is the plan, I would want Edwards to shift back to LG.

In the end...get a frickin center (long term). I've been pounding the table nearly every year for over a decade
 

XXXIVwin

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As Lumbergh would say....

“I’m gonna have to go ahead and, uh, disagree” with a few posters here...

IMHO, Noteboom SHOULD be ready for the start of the 2020 season, or damn near close to it. He injured his knee on Oct. 13, 2019. The time from then until Aug 13, 2020 is a full TEN months. That “should” be enough time for him to heal fully from a full tear of both ACL and MCL.

Not sure why they waited several weeks after injury until surgery...*perhaps* they waited several weeks for MCL to heal on its own before going in for ACL reconstruction?

Regardless, I think having to wait all the way until 2021 to hear from Boom is overly pessimistic. He has access to the best surgeons and trainers in the world, so I think without major setbacks he should be a go by Sept 2020 or Oct 2020 at the latest.
 

iamme33

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I thought coming in Edwards had the better/quicker feet to play LT being a former TE. No big deal because Kromer will decide. I expect him to move them around again early in practice/preseason. This year they need to play in the preseason. Havenstein's comeback should be very important to help the offensive line positions getting settled.
the havenstein situation worries me because he got the big contract then comes into camp over weight and out of shape. i'm not saying that he won't be good but we have seen people get that big contract and never be as good again.
 

BonifayRam

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As Lumbergh would say....

“I’m gonna have to go ahead and, uh, disagree” with a few posters here...

IMHO, Noteboom SHOULD be ready for the start of the 2020 season, or damn near close to it. He injured his knee on Oct. 13, 2019. The time from then until Aug 13, 2020 is a full TEN months. That “should” be enough time for him to heal fully from a full tear of both ACL and MCL.

Not sure why they waited several weeks after injury until surgery...*perhaps* they waited several weeks for MCL to heal on its own before going in for ACL reconstruction?

Regardless, I think having to wait all the way until 2021 to hear from Boom is overly pessimistic. He has access to the best surgeons and trainers in the world, so I think without major setbacks he should be a go by Sept 2020 or Oct 2020 at the latest.
Nothing wrong with disagreeing on the Noteboom issue. I was wondering if we knew of any recent examples of a starting NFL OL'er that had an injury like Noteboom who had surgery in December being able to start & being effective on the field during the game? I make it out to be a little over 9 months of time between the surgery & opening season.

I have always heard that on professional torn ACL's it takes more than one season of the NFL to return to previous form. From what little information was released on the knee damage Noteboom had torn his ACL & MCL, no info on cartilage or bone damage in that knee was released.

One of Noteboom's big issues with him in 2019 was his strength. Fact was he was seriously weak physically as a starting OL. He lacked the needed strength to be an effective lineman. Usually most NFL professionals have fully rested well into healing all those bumps & bruises in their bodies by now. Late winter & early spring is the period of time when they work on improving their overall strength. As Noteboom stated his is just trying to learn to walk.

Yes it might be possible that Noteboom's knee has healed enough to perform when the 2020 season begins but will he have the strength & power needed to be an effective starter when he was not able physically to do any of that needed weight training this off season like the rest of the OL'ers do?
 

Zaphod

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yeah it seems that it take about 3 years for later round o l men to beef up and learn to work as a unit with the rest of the line. if they work out and are a good part of the line then you have to pay them. not to often that you get low round picks that can step in during their first year.
I agree completely, to me it's never been a great idea to sacrifice your salary cap through the draft for your offensive line.

It's one thing if there is a particular player that really fits your scheme, then it's by hook or crook, but the draft isn't a great place to go to when you're looking to save money on the offensive line, unless that positional unit just isn't a priority for some reason.

Defense is a very different story, where you have the opportunity to really capitalize on those rookie contracts earlier.
 
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OldSchool

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As Lumbergh would say....

“I’m gonna have to go ahead and, uh, disagree” with a few posters here...

IMHO, Noteboom SHOULD be ready for the start of the 2020 season, or damn near close to it. He injured his knee on Oct. 13, 2019. The time from then until Aug 13, 2020 is a full TEN months. That “should” be enough time for him to heal fully from a full tear of both ACL and MCL.

Not sure why they waited several weeks after injury until surgery...*perhaps* they waited several weeks for MCL to heal on its own before going in for ACL reconstruction?

Regardless, I think having to wait all the way until 2021 to hear from Boom is overly pessimistic. He has access to the best surgeons and trainers in the world, so I think without major setbacks he should be a go by Sept 2020 or Oct 2020 at the latest.
Two problems though. As BonI says surgery wasn’t in August it was December so that shortens the timeline. The other issue is they need to act in free agency and or the draft in order to get somebody else in. That means they have only 4 months after his surgery to assess if he’ll be ready for the 2020 season. We can’t roll that big set of dice on our LT position.
 

Merlin

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the havenstein situation worries me because he got the big contract then comes into camp over weight and out of shape. i'm not saying that he won't be good but we have seen people get that big contract and never be as good again.
The 2018 season was his first under that contract if memory serves. Which was a pro bowl level season that made the Rams look like geniuses.

He might have played while injured last season. So it is hard to say what they will do and adds more uncertainty to the OL equation for us in discussing what to expect.

Hav is by all accounts a hard worker and good team guy. So yeah I could see that one going a number of different ways.
 

BonifayRam

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the havenstein situation worries me because he got the big contract then comes into camp over weight and out of shape. i'm not saying that he won't be good but we have seen people get that big contract and never be as good again.
The Rob Havenstein saga was totally Unexpected. His 2019 PFF rating was 50.9. Rob had major penalty & sack issues. Most of his measured performance categories were awful. Evan Silva rated Ron @ 74th/75 OTs in 2019....that is about as low as you can go.

As you pointed out Rob Havenstein led the way on the 2019 Ram offensive dismal performance & the Rams OL being ranked at near bottom #31 overall. In 2018 Rob was rated one of the best run blocking OT's in the NFL. Rob's overall rating of 84.2.

The Rob Havenstein contract is not a worrisome type like Brandon Cooks. Demoff did a great job working on it. I anticipate the Rams Org, will provide Rob the full support & opportunity to rebound in 2020. I certainly do not expect the Rams to do anything with him this season. Rob has been a starter since being drafted in 2015. Rob has started 68 gms for the Rams & played outstanding in his run blocking. He has missed only 3 gms due to injury before the 2019 disaster.

If Rob does not rebound in 2020 to previous playing performance the Rams Org. can release him after the 2020 season with a savings of $6 million & a low $1.5 million in dead $$$. So on the Rob Contract there is some good relief if Rob fails in his rebound.

Also, on the positive side the Rams OL cadre is full of RT skilled type OL'ers i.e. Bobby Evan, David Edwards & Chandler Brewer. There also Joseph Noteboom who should be ready for RT action in 2021 if the Rams cut Rob. Whereas the real issue is @ LT post now & into the future.
 

den-the-coach

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Also, on the positive side the Rams OL cadre is full of RT skilled type OL'ers i.e. Bobby Evan, David Edwards & Chandler Brewer. There also Joseph Noteboom who should be ready for RT action in 2021 if the Rams cut Rob. Whereas the real issue is @ LT post now & into the future.

IMO, Noteboom will begin on the PUP List, but I really believe he will be ready by the 2nd or 3rd preseason game. I like Havenstein to bounce back, he's a proven road grader and had a down year in 2019. I look for the Rams to bring back Whitworth and also draft a Left Tackle like OT Ben Bartch of St. John's...Not a Football Factory, but he's 6-6 308 and played outstanding at the Senior Bowl.
 

Rams43

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Let’s face it. Rams have question marks in at least 4 of the 5 starting OL positions. The reason I didn’t make that all 5 is that Edwards strikes me as a starting NFL OG, either on the right or left side. And even Edwards lacks much experience.

That’s a scary assessment for a team with SB aspirations.

Having said that, there does seem to be players already here with potential to be quality starters. But the word ‘potential’ is a scary one, isn’t it?

And the stakes could scarcely be higher since a good OL is necessary for any hope of Offensive success leading to a playoff slot coming out of the NFC West.

Rams have just gotta get it right on their OL decisions.
 

BonifayRam

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I agree completely, to me it's never been a great idea to sacrifice your salary cap through the draft for your offensive line.

It's one thing if there is a particular player that really fits your scheme, then it's by hook or crook, but the draft isn't a great place to go to when you're looking to save money on the offensive line, unless that positional unit just isn't a priority for some reason.

Defense is a very different story, where you have the opportunity to really capitalize on those rookie contracts earlier.
Sure looks like you & I are playing & rocking to the same sheet of music on this post.

When you have invested most of your teams assets in drafting one immobile slender pocket passer & follow-up by awarding him a massive % of your teams long term future salary cap .............stands to reason that it would be wise to prioritize the purchase of the best PROVEN insurance available to ensure that QB the needed protection to do what you are paying him so much $$$ to do.

The OL might would be the only unit where I would feel comfortable & consider overpaying for free agents. Save all of your higher draft picks for defensive players where normally you will get quick returns in good on field performances for your investments.
 

Merlin

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IMO, Noteboom will begin on the PUP List, but I really believe he will be ready by the 2nd or 3rd preseason game. I like Havenstein to bounce back, he's a proven road grader and had a down year in 2019. I look for the Rams to bring back Whitworth and also draft a Left Tackle like OT Ben Bartch of St. John's...Not a Football Factory, but he's 6-6 308 and played outstanding at the Senior Bowl.
I hope you're right. But for planning purposes it's a bit scary to put themselves in a situation where they are depending on Boom. Way I see it is the Rams have likely him in that "maybe" category where his returning and actually factoring in at LT would be a huge bonus while they plan something more stable.

IMO I feel like the decision right now for the 2020 season is Whit vs Youth.

Do you pay Whit a sizable chunk of your cap space to milk out another year as a temp answer? Or just dive in the deep end at LT with a young tackle who has some decent feet and good strength, knowing you're gonna need to chip and help him in some matchups.

If McVay is envisioning his offense for 2020 to include more of the 12 personnel sets we saw down the stretch, and a balanced attack, the young route could work plus they get Boom back at some point as a swing tackle which is a better role for him if he does play post-surgery IMO.

On the other hand Whit had a $16M cap hit in 2019 (and $9M in 2018). I'm thinking the Rams have a number in mind that will serve as the decision point in keeping him for another year. If that doesn't work then they'll probably go to the youth and just suck it up. And yes they will almost definitely draft a "project LT" type to buffer their depth.
 

nighttrain

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Best solution for OL is to bring back big Whit for one more season, if he is amenable to a reasonable contract for the year
train
 

Merlin

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The OL might would be the only unit where I would feel comfortable & consider overpaying for free agents. Save all of your higher draft picks for defensive players where normally you will get quick returns in good on field performances for your investments.
I think that approach could work. And to be fair the Rams might be able to improve their line without adding any FA but I just feel like that comes down to whether or not they keep Whit around. If they bring Whit back there probably won't be enough to bring in a FA who is an upgrade.

Both sides come with risk IMO...

If you keep Whit, then you probably have no choice but to go with what you have from last year at the rest of the spots due to cap and need elsewhere. Situation here is you're counting on the same guys on the interior to improve the run game and cut way back on the collapsed pockets in the passing game.

If you don't keep Whit, then you can probably go get a good young FA to help settle down the interior. But then you're looking at some combo of Evans/Edwards/Boom at LT. This can be scarier for the QB which is a big drawback, but on the plus side the FA you bring in on the interior can be a longterm and core piece for your line (which Whit obviously is not).

Fact is they're going to be unproven and counting on young players to improve up front it's just a matter of which spots that is going to happen.
 

Ram65

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the havenstein situation worries me because he got the big contract then comes into camp over weight and out of shape. i'm not saying that he won't be good but we have seen people get that big contract and never be as good again.


Havenstein doesn't strike me as a guy just out for the money. I didn't realize he was really out of shape and overweight. Getting hurt and not playing should light a fire under his belt (pun intended). Having some competition should also motivate him. With all that said we don't how he is going to play in 2020.
 

Ram65

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As Lumbergh would say....

“I’m gonna have to go ahead and, uh, disagree” with a few posters here...

IMHO, Noteboom SHOULD be ready for the start of the 2020 season, or damn near close to it. He injured his knee on Oct. 13, 2019. The time from then until Aug 13, 2020 is a full TEN months. That “should” be enough time for him to heal fully from a full tear of both ACL and MCL.

Not sure why they waited several weeks after injury until surgery...*perhaps* they waited several weeks for MCL to heal on its own before going in for ACL reconstruction?

Regardless, I think having to wait all the way until 2021 to hear from Boom is overly pessimistic. He has access to the best surgeons and trainers in the world, so I think without major setbacks he should be a go by Sept 2020 or Oct 2020 at the latest.

I thought it would take longer. Here is an optimistic article reprinted from USA Today. They could have waited to have the MCL heal and have him build strength in his hips and legs as the article states. Rams always seem to not say much about injuries and recovery. I haven't found much about the seriousness and recovery of his injury. In the article, it states in 2010 that 63% of NFL players recovered in 10.8 months. Don't know if that's from injury dated or surgery date. Of course, Peterson is a focal point in the article.

By Oct. 4th,2020 the Rams will have played 4 games. I suppose its possible Boom could be ready for the start of the season or by early October. As time goes on the Rams could have a better idea or maybe they have a guesstimate date already. Unfortunately, it may not be an exact timetable or there could be setbacks. Boom"s lack of NFL experience at LT and the injury recovery make having a backup plan for LT mandatory. Even if he misses a few games.


Adrian Peterson leads way in ACL recovery in NFL
Original post from USA Today
Vikings running back Adrian Peterson leads the NFL in rushing a season after an ACL tear
adrian peterson 12 07 12 4 3 r536 c534 300x224 Adrian Peterson leads way in ACL recovery in NFL

Three letters no athlete wants to hear: ACL.
But the way Adrian Peterson is galloping through the NFL this season is a tribute to his grit — and the surgical and rehabilitation advances that give the Minnesota Vikings running back a leg up on players from decades past.
Last Christmas Eve in Washington, Peterson took a hit from the side by Redskins safety DeJon Gomes that bent his left knee gruesomely inward. Peterson tore the anterior cruciate ligament (ACL), which connects the shin and thigh bones within the knee, and the medial collateral ligament (MCL) and damaged cartilage.
After his intensive “work and grind” to get back, Peterson enters Sunday against the visiting Chicago Bears having started every game this season. He leads the NFL with 1,446 rushing yards, 308 more than No. 2 Marshawn Lynch of the Seattle Seahawks. Even by Peterson’s own lofty standards, that’s his second-highest total in six NFL seasons.
“The ACL injury, I knew it would be the toughest thing I had,” Peterson, 27, said Thursday at the Vikings complex in Eden Prairie, Minn. “I had to work extremely hard to get back. I had to put in a lot of hours working hard, hard, non-stop to get back.”
Peterson, who didn’t play in the preseason, is coming off 210 rushing yards against the Green Bay Packers, including an 82-yard touchdown. He’s not surprised by his success.
“You’ve got to have one believer. I’m sure there weren’t many out there, but I definitely believed I could come back and be better than I was before,” Peterson said.
Yards don’t measure his journey since surgery last Dec. 30, when his torn ACL was replaced by a graft from the patellar tendon of his kneecap, anchored on either end by screws. The surgery was performed by James Andrews, orthopedic surgeon to the stars of sports, including New Orleans Saints quarterback Drew Brees, former Dallas Cowboys quarterback Troy Aikman and former baseball ace Rogers Clemens.
“Hearing about ACLs … some guys take longer to bounce back from it. I knew that,” Peterson said. “I just didn’t know how intense it would be until I started the process.”
Story: ACL injuries bring hips into play
Multiple medical articles have repeated the line from the early 1970s that the torn ACL was “the most common cause of the ex-athlete.” That has changed in the past three decades with the advent of reconstructions using grafts. The procedure’s emergence in the late 1980s benefited from the advent of arthroscopic surgery, which allows surgeons to see inside the knee as they work via fiberoptic cameras.
Kansas City Chiefs running back Jamaal Charles, also coming off ACL surgery, has another 1,000-yard season going and ranks sixth in the NFL in rushing. Players rehabbing from the surgery this season include New York Jets cornerback Darrelle Revis and Houston Texans linebacker Brian Cushing.
Peterson has become Exhibit A of its effectiveness and an inspiration for those in rehab.
“You look at a guy like Adrian Peterson … where the exact same thing happened to him last year and he had the exact same surgery. And you say like, ‘You know what? I can come back from this,’ ” said Philadelphia Eagles center Jason Kelce, who tore his ACL and MCL in a Sept. 16 game against the Baltimore Ravens.
NFL players in ‘high-risk zone’ for ACL injury
ACL tears typically are caused by a blow to the knee from the outside or a sudden stop.
“I was blocking a defender and my right leg was planted. A safety went to tackle the running back … and (he) just actually ended up diving straight right into my knee, from the outside in,” Kelce said.
The injury is common in football. This season, the University of Maryland lost four quarterbacks with ACL tears.
Yet studies show women athletes are more likely to sustain ACL injuries. The American Academy of Orthopedic Surgeons lists varying estimates of the risk for women at two to 10 times higher than for men.
“I think it has to do with different dimensions of their height and weight and body mass index, and their muscles may not be as strong,” said Christopher Harner, an orthopedic surgeon and medical director of the Center for Sports Medicine at the University of Pittsburgh Medical Center (UPMC).
NFL players, however, are in a uniquely high-risk zone because of the stopping and starting, the cutting and unexpected blows to the knee. But the injury no longer means a player’s career is over. Doctors generally say an athlete can return in 6-9 months after surgery.
“We’ve had seven players on our football team that has had this surgery before and are playing now,” Jets coach Rex Ryan said after Revis’ injury. ” … I don’t think there’s any doubt he’s going to come back strong from it.”
The repairs come with no guarantees. Doctors at the Richmond Bone and Joint Clinic in Sugarland, Texas, found in 2010 that 31 of 49 (63%) of NFL players studied returned to play in the league an average of 10.8 months after surgery.
There is a chance of re-injury. Nose tackle Casey Hampton of the Pittsburgh Steelers has had three ACL reconstructions: one on his left knee while at the University of Texas and two on his right knee with the Steelers, including one this past offseason.
But NFL players have a much better shot at coming back from knee injuries than they did decades ago, when careers were shortened or ended — most notably that of Hall of Fame running back Gale Sayers, who played for the Chicago Bears from 1965-71.
Harner, an orthopedic surgeron for 25 years, said there have been pivotal advancements in the surgery.
“Putting (the graft) in the right spot, using the athlete’s own tissue and returning them cautiously with correct rehab. Those are the three keys,” said Harner, president of the American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine.
Over the years, surgeons have tried synthetic replacements; Harner said they haven’t worked. Grafts from deceased donors still are used. But Harner said the optimal graft is from the patient’s own body, such as the patellar tendon or a hamstring tendon.
“I think your own tissue is better,” he said.
Freddie Fu, also an orthopedic surgeon at UPMC, echoes that.
“Studies have shown that there is a slightly increased risk of re-rupture in the young, active athletic population with (grafts from cadavers),” said Fu, chair of the Department of Orthopedic Surgery at the University of Pittsburgh School of Medicine.
With the options in place now, is a reconstructed ACL as good as the original?
Fu said it is “not the same” but that surgeons are working to make the replacement as close to the original as possible: “We feel that we are re-creating a knee that is very similar to the pre-injury knee.”
Prehab and rehab
Surgeons typically don’t reconstruct ACLs until a week or two after the injury. That interim is for the prehab.
“The best thing to do before surgery is to get as much swelling out of the joint as possible to get their range of motion back,” said Anna Hartman, a physical therapist and Director of Physical Performance Therapy at Phoenix-based Athletes’ Performance, a training/rehab center for elite athletes.
“The more range of motion they go into surgery with and the less swelling … the better the outcomes they have.”
That means ice and elevation, massage and manipulation of the knee and exercising muscles of the hip that shut down after a leg injury. Hartman also has her patients work on range of motion in a pool with his or her body unweighted.
After surgery, Hartman said the doctors typically have the athletes stay home for 2-3 days. The knee is in an immobilizer (a type of brace that can be adjusted to allow for varying degrees of knee bending), and the athlete is on crutches.
After that, the rehab moves into full swing. Hartman said athletes usually are off crutches in two weeks, although the immobilizer will stay on for about four weeks.
From five weeks to 16 weeks, she said, the athlete does exercises to strengthen the muscles of the hip, thigh and calves. “Typically around 12 weeks, we’ll clear them to start running straight ahead,” she said.
The cutting and running come between 4-6 months.
“Six months, usually, the doctor will clear them to return to sports-specific activities,” Hartman said.
She added, “I won’t allow somebody to cut until they’ve shown me they have good strength and hip stability and are tolerating things well.”
The emphasis is on the quality, not the quickness, of the recovery.
“In the early 2000s, there were a lot of people pushing — without any science — returning in like 2-4 months,” Harner said. “Many of these athletes weren’t ready. They didn’t have the muscle power. They didn’t have the balance. … Their knee would fatigue, and they’d blow the graft out again.
Now, the rehab is more carefully monitored, Harner said: “We’re now looking at what is the function of the knee and the leg and the lower extremity. Can they do a shuttle drill (changes of direction around cones)? Can they do one-legged hops and can they run on a treadmill for 15 minutes and then stand on a single leg without having it wobble?”
Peterson rehabbed at the Vikings complex and near his Houston home, at Memorial Hermann Sports Medicine Institute, where he worked with physical therapist Russ Paine.
“The things you guys don’t see is how much I work and grind and fought through different situations to get back,” Peterson said. “Mentally, I was able to push through when I was tired and didn’t want to do anything. I definitely give credit to the things I put into my off-season.”
The patella tendon is still sore after games, but it’s a small price to pay for Peterson to return to the form that makes a 2,000-yard season possible to him.
“I’m always looking up at 2,000, 2,500 yards,” he said. “I’m making it simple for myself. … If I go out and continue to play the way I’m playing, I think it will come.”
 

bubbaramfan

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When I was at TC, one of the first things I noticed while watching the OL practice was how out of shape Big Rob was. He had put on weight, especially around the middle. He was slower and flat footed off the snap.

Its been said Rob is a had worker and motivated, but I have to wonder after he got a nice contract he kinda relaxed a little too much this past off season. Hopefully he's embarased enough by his poor play to get the max out of this off season to come into camp in shape and ready to prove himself again.

I'm sure his coaches have had a talk with him about this.

I have faith Big Rob will bounce back and anchor RT this coming season.
 

BonifayRam

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Reference to the poor physical condition of Rob Havenstein in 2019 vs to his 2018 season. Not sure that this was the problem, but I am just saying................. Recent very big events to Rob Havenstein was a new marriage then following a new firstborn child came screaming in.

Anyone who has had their first rug rat like me knows very well how your life changes & expecting any normal sleep, rest or workout plans go right out the window in abundant copious amounts.

Just maybe if this was an issue Rob has got this part of his life running smooth. I did not do well & stayed screwed up for a long periods of time.........o_O:palm:

You would think that maybe Whitworth could give Rob some info on how to manage things ...... Whitworth hired a full time nanny.
 
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