Wow...Raiders firing Allen already

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

LesBaker

Mr. Savant
Joined
Aug 23, 2012
Messages
17,460
Name
Les
Here is how I remember it Stranger.
Martz's contract was due to be renewed,smart orgs. don't let coaches go into their final year on the chances they have a SB season it costs them too dearly ,so they were negotiating an extension, Martz wanted money commensurate to what Parcells was getting,Shaw was ready to give it to him but wanted performance clause that would let them out, Martz balked and Shaw told him they couldn't afford to keep winning SB's anyway and the expectation would only be 8-8 or better.

Martz leaked that info after they'd locked him out effectively harming the FO cred and damaging the league itself's cred, like there are several franchises that won't put the money into winning and are just milking the cash cow.
Considering your attention to undercurrents I'm kinda surprised you didn't remember these things.
Martz pretty well black balled himself ,but I believe him,and that's one of the reasons I'm so supportive of Kroenke ,he has been willing to spend to acquire excellence to right this ship and IMO knows how deep a hole this team was in top to bottom as the people who wanted to sell anyway were unwilling to maintain respectability if it effected the bottom line.
One more thing ,as far as managing egos goes ,IF Mike Martz's ego is any more problematic than Greg Williams',I miss my guess.

On thread topic, Jon Gruden is being rumored as a possible replacement now that the firing is official.

Some minor differences here......

When Martz was axed he is the one who said Shaw said they didn't want to go to the playoffs and win SB's because it cost the team money. He backtracked on that though because not only is it absolutely preposterous, its the complete opposite. Teams make a nice chunk of change from playoff appearances. Especially home teams. When you add up ticket sales, parking, concessions and all the rest they make literally millions upon millions of dollars.

If I recall in that same interview he blamed Shaw and Zygmunt for blackballing him by spreading rumors throughout the NFL that he was high maintenance, paranoid and so on. He backed off of that too.

Martz has an ego and he wanted more control, not just more money. If you remember there were differences in opinions between the three and Shaw and JZ were outvoting him so to speak. And when you have a trio of Shaw, Ziggy and Martz it's a never ending circle jerk of incompetence, arrogance and ego. Throw in Georgia as owner and it was destined to fail.

On topic......

I'd be surprised if Gruden went back to work for the Davis family. I thought that was an ugly split.
 

Prime Time

PT
Moderator
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
20,922
Name
Peter
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...settle-on-tony-sparano-as-interim-head-coach/

Raiders settle on Tony Sparano as interim head coach
Posted by Michael David Smith on September 30, 2014

tonysparanomiamidolphinsvdallascowboysmrd9r4efr0jl.jpg
Getty Images

Tony Sparano is set to become the Raiders’ interim head coach after the firing of Dennis Allen.

After several conflicting reports emerged over the last 12 hours about who the Raiders would go with as Allen’s replacement, Jim Trotter of ESPN reported on Tuesday that it’s Sparano, who had the title of assistant head coach and offensive line coach on Allen’s staff.

Sparano previously served as the head coach of the Dolphins from 2008 to 2011.

If the reports are correct that Raiders General Manager Reggie McKenzie wanted Sparano but owner Mark Davis preferred Al Saunders, that would indicate that Davis still has confidence in McKenzie’s decision-making. Which is odd, considering that most of McKenzie’s decisions as Oakland’s G.M. haven’t panned out.

The 0-4 Raiders are on their bye week, which will give Sparano some extra time to make whatever changes he deems necessary. Although Sparano will presumably get the final 12 games of the season to prove himself capable of handling the job on a permanent basis, it seems more likely that the Raiders will hire a new coach after the season ends. That coach will be the Raiders’ 10th head coach in 15 years.
 

Stranger

How big is infinity?
Joined
Aug 15, 2010
Messages
7,182
Name
Hugh
So, the question is "Why"? Why setup your business in this way?
 

RamFan503

Grill and Brew Master
Moderator
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
33,929
Name
Stu
Some minor differences here......

When Martz was axed he is the one who said Shaw said they didn't want to go to the playoffs and win SB's because it cost the team money. He backtracked on that though because not only is it absolutely preposterous, its the complete opposite. Teams make a nice chunk of change from playoff appearances. Especially home teams. When you add up ticket sales, parking, concessions and all the rest they make literally millions upon millions of dollars.

If I recall in that same interview he blamed Shaw and Zygmunt for blackballing him by spreading rumors throughout the NFL that he was high maintenance, paranoid and so on. He backed off of that too.

Martz has an ego and he wanted more control, not just more money. If you remember there were differences in opinions between the three and Shaw and JZ were outvoting him so to speak. And when you have a trio of Shaw, Ziggy and Martz it's a never ending circle jerk of incompetence, arrogance and ego. Throw in Georgia as owner and it was destined to fail.

On topic......

I'd be surprised if Gruden went back to work for the Davis family. I thought that was an ugly split.
The only reason Martz backed away from those comments was because he wanted to coach in the NFL and it is if nothing, a good ole boyz club.

It is very true that Shaw and Georgia did not want to spend money and even said (when still in LA) they wouldn't be held hostage to the new inflated contracts being given out in the NFL. Those two milked this team for every penny it could. And JZ? What a clown. I don't defend Martz because he truly was an egomaniac. But what he said about that trio was true and I wouldn't blame him one bit for wanting more power rather than running everything through that clown show of a brain truss. Those three had no business being in this league and the idea that Zygmunt was a salary cap ace just flames me. He knew how to do Georgia and Shaw's bidding and was much loved by them for it.
 

Prime Time

PT
Moderator
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
20,922
Name
Peter
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/09/30/mckenzie-announces-that-allen-has-been-fired/

McKenzie announces that Allen has been fired
Posted by Mike Florio on September 30, 2014

mckenzie.jpg
AP

It’s not entirely Dennis Allen’s fault that the Raiders stink. And so it was fitting that the guy who shares in the blame for the current state of the team made the official announcement that Allen has taken the fall for the team’s predictable 0-4 start.

“After thorough evaluation, we have determined to move in another direction,” G.M. Reggie McKenzie said in a statement released by the team. “We appreciate Dennis Allen’s dedication to the organization and wish him and his family nothing but the best in the future.”

The different direction, at least for now, will be offensive coordinator Tony Sparano, who took the Dolphins to a 29-33 record over four years before being fired after the 2011 season. It’s hard to imagine the outcome being any different with Sparano than with Allen, given the lack of talent and other issues with the franchise.

But Sparano will have a far more extended opportunity to earn the job on an ongoing basis, given that 12 games remain on the schedule. That’s actually better for the Raiders; it makes an artificial improvement in performance from players who prefer to keep the current staff less likely. Far too often, the interim coach has success in the last 2-3 games of the year, secures the job, and then the wheels come off.

The Raiders have scheduled a press conference for 5:00 p.m. ET. Even though the press release didn’t include any quotes from owner Mark Davis, he presumably will be there. There’s even a slim chance we’ll see an overhead projector.

That last part is a joke. I think. It nevertheless will be interesting to see whether Mark Davis continues his father’s habit of trying to find ways to stiff fired coaches out of the balance of their remaining salary.
 

RamFan503

Grill and Brew Master
Moderator
Joined
Jun 24, 2010
Messages
33,929
Name
Stu
Far too often, the interim coach has success in the last 2-3 games of the year, secures the job, and then the wheels come off.

Far too often Florio? You mean like your use of the bolded term?
 

Thordaddy

Binding you with ancient logic
Joined
Apr 5, 2012
Messages
10,462
Name
Rich
Some minor differences here......

When Martz was axed he is the one who said Shaw said they didn't want to go to the playoffs and win SB's because it cost the team money. He backtracked on that though because not only is it absolutely preposterous, its the complete opposite. Teams make a nice chunk of change from playoff appearances. Especially home teams. When you add up ticket sales, parking, concessions and all the rest they make literally millions upon millions of dollars.

If I recall in that same interview he blamed Shaw and Zygmunt for blackballing him by spreading rumors throughout the NFL that he was high maintenance, paranoid and so on. He backed off of that too.

Martz has an ego and he wanted more control, not just more money. If you remember there were differences in opinions between the three and Shaw and JZ were outvoting him so to speak. And when you have a trio of Shaw, Ziggy and Martz it's a never ending circle jerk of incompetence, arrogance and ego. Throw in Georgia as owner and it was destined to fail.

On topic......

I'd be surprised if Gruden went back to work for the Davis family. I thought that was an ugly split.
Well we remember things differently Les but in the end it was not because the guy couldn't win ,his performance as a coach had the the FO ready to pay him , and the reference to the cost of winning was keeping the stars paid and funding the scouting dept Martz had been promised but didn't get . In the end making those comments whether they were true or not damaged Martz ,so once he retracts it's a choice was he telling the truth the first time or the second .
BTW I listened to Donald Trump the other day on XM radio talking about his bid for the Bills and he said that the values of teams are grossly inflated by the tax benefits they have and that all it would take to make these teams far less valuable would be a few hostile tax reforms and that as business investments they weren't really that good and you really make money through appreciation and then it's only realizable when you sell.
Not that they don't turn a profit but don't have a very good ROI other than appreciation ,said they were mostly an ego thing for the owners.

As far as Gruden goes , the Raiders got two first round draft choices for him and at the time thought they'd made out like bandits ,I can however see that Davis 2 might see it as swallowing some pride to hire him with all the other good coaches available , I was just reporting that Grudens name had come up as a possible
 

Thordaddy

Binding you with ancient logic
Joined
Apr 5, 2012
Messages
10,462
Name
Rich

And even if that profit was $150 million ,the new owners of the Bills paid $1.4 Billion,what % ROI does that work out to be?
 

Prime Time

PT
Moderator
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
Messages
20,922
Name
Peter
http://mmqb.si.com/2014/10/01/jon-gruden-oakland-raiders-coach-search-nfl/

gruden-story-image-960.jpg

Bob Rosato/Sports Illustrated

Don’t Go There, Raiders: Pass on Jon Gruden
Oakland needs a savior, and bringing back the former silver-and-black coach would make a splash. But it’s not worth the money or the heartache
By Don Banks

Tough call on which was the biggest fait accompli in the NFL this week: Dennis Allen being fired by Oakland after a dismal 0-4 start, or Jon Gruden’s name surfacing 12 seconds later as the Raiders’ dare-to-dream scenario in their endless loop of a coaching search. Score it a nil-nil draw in terms of surprise factor.

Gruden’s history in Oakland and his sky-high Q rating would make for the sexiest of hires, and his name carries the cachet, credibility and Super Bowl-glamor the downtrodden Raiders have sorely lacked for what seems like an eternity. After all, it’s not every day you get to take a shot at landing a coach who hasn’t lost a game in almost six years. Making such a splash would certainly help restore the Raiders brand in the Bay Area.

But a few words of unsolicited advice: Don’t do it, Oakland. Don’t make the mistake of thinking Gruden is the answer to all your problems, the “superstar’’ coaching option capable of restoring a football Camelot to Raiders Nation. Even if you make him an offer he can’t refuse—and it’ll have to be a big one in order to pry him out of the Monday Night Football booth he’s grown so comfortable in since 2009—executing such a bold back-to-the-future move won’t make you dramatically better off in the long run.

Chasing after past glory is always a tempting call in NFL coaching searches, but it’s rarely the right one, writ large. Throwing big money at Gruden wouldn’t make him anything close to a lock when it comes to transforming the league’s biggest doormat into a winner. It would just make him that much richer coming out of a six-year retirement. Gruden’s Super Bowl pedigree would certainly add a sizzle factor, but it doesn’t remotely guarantee a Raiders’ restoration.

If the equation were that simple, Joe Gibbs’ second tour of duty in Washington from 2004-2007 would be remembered as a grand slam-hire by Daniel Snyder. Bill Parcells reign in Dallas from 2003-2006 would have lifted the Cowboys and Jerry Jones back to the heights of the Jimmy Johnson glory era. And Dick Vermeil would have managed more than one division title and two winning seasons in his five years (2001-2005) working for Kansas City owner Lamar Hunt.

There were no failures in that illustrious group, but no real saviors either. Add it all up and those three Super Bowl winners combined to produce just one playoff victory in the 13 seasons that represented their final coaching stops (five playoff trips yielded a 1-5 postseason record). Those coaches were all handsomely paid, but they had more name than game at that stage of their careers.

And do we have to remind anyone of the embarrassing Mike Ditka experiment in New Orleans, when his glittering Super Bowl résumé couldn’t turn around the down-and-out Saints? In fact, the Lombardi Trophy that Vermeil won with the Kurt Warner-led Rams at the end of the 1999 season—in the coach’s third season of a remarkable comeback from a 14-year career in the broadcasting booth—stands as Super Bowl era’s lone example that runs counter to the prevailing wisdom about coaching comebacks (unless you’re willing to count Barry Switzer winning a ring in Dallas, and I’m not). The magic isn’t easy to recapture.

Tony Sparano has been named the Raiders’ interim coach, but Mark Davis has made no secret that his search starts with Gruden, and perhaps the Raiders owner will even offer Chucky total personnel autonomy to entice a homecoming. But buyer beware: Gruden had a strong four-year run in Oakland, going 40-28 from 1998 through 2001, but his track record in Tampa Bay was undeniably uneven.

gruden-lombardi-trophy-360.jpg

Gruden raising the Lombardi Trophy at Raymond James Stadium a day after winning Super Bowl 37. His Bucs rolled to a 48-21 victory over the Raiders, the coach’s former team. (Scott Martin/AP)

Gruden’s seven-year tenure with the Bucs started out as well as it possibly could have in 2002, when he took over a talent-laden team, lit a fire underneath it and led it all the way to a blowout victory over Oakland in Super Bowl 37.

It’s fair to point out that Gruden walked into a good situation in Tampa Bay and won a ring with Tony Dungy’s roster, though we must hasten to point out that Gruden’s prior work had plenty to do with the success of the Bill Callahan-coached Raiders. One way or another, Gruden’s fingerprints were on both Super Bowl teams.

But the rest of Gruden’s time in Tampa Bay was streaky at best. The Bucs still haven’t won a playoff game since their Super Bowl victory, and Gruden made just two more trips to the playoffs in his final six seasons, losing at home in the opening round to higher-seeded teams in both 2005 (Washington) and 2007 (the Giants).

Including the playoffs, Gruden’s first Bucs team went 15-4 in 2002, but he was just 45-53 after that, finishing close to .500 (60-57) for his entire Tampa Bay run. In 2008, his final Bucs club went 9-3 and seemed destined for a first-round bye when it collapsed in December, becoming the first team to start 9-3 and miss the playoffs since the 1993 Dolphins.

And for a coach with a reputation of being an offensive guru—who hasn’t seen his wildly popular quarterback camp each draft season on ESPN?—Gruden never proved to have much of a handle on the position in Tampa Bay. After the underrated Brad Johnson started on the Super Bowl-winning club, Gruden burned through a litany of other QBs, with the likes of Shaun King, Brian Griese, Rob Johnson, Chris Simms, Bruce Gradkowski, Jeff Garcia, Tim Rattay and Luke McCown all starting at least one game for him.

That’s nine different starters in seven seasons overall. Gruden was always looking for the next guy, seemingly never satisfied with the quarterback he had. In his last season, do you remember the Bucs flirting with but failing to land Brett Favre, who signed with the Jets in 2008? The pattern was the same: Gruden swooned hardest for the players he couldn’t have.

The constant changes at quarterback were reflected in the results. In his Tampa Bay years, Gruden’s offenses ranked 25th in scoring, never once finishing in the top half of the league. Simply put, he was never able to live up to the reputation for offensive innovation he had in Oakland, where he thrived with Rich Gannon at quarterback and was thought to have one of the game’s brighter young minds on that side of the ball.

If I were Davis, I’d be very wary of giving Gruden complete authority over personnel decision-making, minus a general manager with a strong voice and track record of draft results. Some believe Gruden started going downhill in Tampa Bay when he feuded with and then won a power struggle over longtime Bucs general manager Rich McKay in 2003, with McKay resigning in December to take Atlanta’s GM job. Gruden never distinguishing himself as a personnel evaluator with the Bucs, or built up the roster to the point where the franchise could enjoy sustained success.

In time, his feuds with McKay, receiver Keyshawn Johnson, and even respected Bucs defensive coordinator Monte Kiffin toward the end of their association, damaged Gruden’s reputation and made him seem difficult to work with. By the end of his tenure in Tampa, his personnel decisions, offensive acumen and head coaching touch all drew fire, giving his critics plenty of fodder.

It’s not hard to understand the Raiders’ infatuation with Gruden. He was at their helm during the final glory days of this fabled franchise. But resist the urge, Oakland. Don’t make your past the map you use to find your way to a better future. Learn from history. Don’t go chasing the celebrated return of the Gruden era. Instead, you could easily wind up recalling the Gruden error.