What to do with Gregg Williams?

[fearsomefour]

Hekker is an amazing punter, but the punt coverage unit has been great as well.

Don't forget Fassel is the one that broke Hekker/GZ. He's been their unit coach since Day 1 of their NFL careers. GZ doesn't have the same reputation Hekker(his might have been higher than Hekker's when he was known as Legatron during his rookie season, but that's a different season), but I'd argue that GZ is also an above average kicker and that the staff, whether it be Fisher or Fassel, has learned GZ's limitations and that you can't consistently trot him out for 50+ yard attempts, even though he has the leg for it.

The biggest + to GZ in my opinion is the touch backs. Some of that is offset with the new starting position. But, directionally kicking off for you coverage to pin them back inside the 25, he can do that as well.
I like GZ a lot, but, his inability to consistently take advantage of his strength makes him an average kicker.
Hekker is one of the best in the league. You are right, there is a lot more to it than just kicking the ball. He is great and works well with Fassel. That alone makes Fassel worth retaining.

 

[BonifayRam]

Which is why the first evaluation has to be of the D.
Is it a top 10 unit? Is the D line still the strength of the team? Is Quinn damaged goods at this point?
If all that is deemed to be good I am not hiring a coach who runs a 3/4. I would not weaken a strength.

Most of the proven big talent is on the defense, it should have been a top 5 defense the last two seasons. The DL is still the power of this D but is trending downward due to a lack of outside pass rush. Brockers & Donald playing on the inside should be pro bowl starting material but its not. If I was hired as the DC I would plan on having NT Brockers, DL Donald, DT Easley, LDE Hayes, DE Westbrooks & DE Longacre here next season with upgrades primarily specialized tweener pass rushing Right DE's & a run stuffing NT & maintain a standard 4-3. That could be had in the draft or just maybe Morgan Fox. Fisher since his arrival never addressed a part time run stuffer @ Nose Tackle type NEVER!

The Quinn question....my conformable response to your question on Quinn ....a strong yes very damaged but he would be a good designated part time pass rusher but IMO he is no longer capable of playing a full time DE post on any NFL team. Even in the Gregg defense the amount of snaps Quinn has taken is not close to the normal amount of downs played by most other NFL teams starters. Gregg's rotation DL provided Quinn much break periods but even then Quinn is constantly unhealthy & trending downward even as he is headed for 27 yrs old party. But the issue with Quinn being a small part time player is his contract. He would not take a pay cut thus he is cut bait IMO.

On your last sentence I would say we agree 100% let fix the problem which is the offense.

 

[den-the-coach]

I don't get too caught up in this sometimes it is best with a clean slate, but the next Head Coach will make that decision. There will be others that will make excellent DC's like Rex Ryan and Gus Bradley (sorry @jrry32 ) for example besides others that we don't know about.

At times new Head Coaches keeps some on the previous staff, but we will have to wait for the dust to settle and just because Williams goes somewhere else does not mean the defense will be any worse off, unless there is another Larry Marmie hiding beyond the trees.

 

[fearsomefour]

Most of the proven big talent is on the defense, it should have been a top 5 defense the last two seasons. The DL is still the power of this D but is trending downward due to a lack of outside pass rush. Brockers & Donald playing on the inside should be pro bowl starting material but its not. If I was hired as the DC I would plan on having NT Brockers, DL Donald, DT Easley, LDE Hayes, DE Westbrooks & DE Longacre here next season with upgrades primarily specialized tweener pass rushing Right DE's & a run stuffing NT & maintain a standard 4-3. That could be had in the draft or just maybe Morgan Fox. Fisher since his arrival never addressed a part time run stuffer @ Nose Tackle type NEVER!

The Quinn question....my conformable response to your question on Quinn ....a strong yes very damaged but he would be a good designated part time pass rusher but IMO he is no longer capable of playing a full time DE post on any NFL team. Even in the Gregg defense the amount of snaps Quinn has taken is not close to the normal amount of downs played by most other NFL teams starters. Gregg's rotation DL provided Quinn much break periods but even then Quinn is constantly unhealthy & trending downward even as he is headed for 27 yrs old party. But the issue with Quinn being a small part time player is his contract. He would not take a pay cut thus he is cut bait IMO.

On your last sentence I would say we agree 100% let fix the problem which is the offense.

So, my thought process there is if Quinn is determined to be that damaged at his salary he almost has to be let go. Now, the 4/3 DEs are Hayes, Westbrooks, Longacre....doesn't exactly inspire fear. At that point switching to a 3/4 makes a little more sense.
I much prefer a 4/3....but Williams design always required speed and he has been mixing 3 DL in anyway.

 

[Yamahopper]

On the premise that it's big name coach he's getting full control so he's going to bring in his peeps. Total house cleaning Sneed. scouts, equp. mangers, most of the roster over a couple years. He's going to win with his system.

Get a up and coming college coach then Sneed might stay in a power sharing role for awhile.

But really the team needs a overhaul from top to bottom. Keep the core and fill in with players that make the new scheme work. Yeah the coaching, drafting and player development was bad, but some of the players aren't good football players. They looked good in workouts but on Sundays they just don't play smart or well.

 

[BonifayRam]

Unfortunately. ... it's up to the new incoming coach.....and if they hire a 3-4 coach.... we will lose a lot of existing players as they don't fit that scheme. ... ala....Buffalo Bills after they let Swartz go......also be interesting to see how new coach handles Robert Quinn....who seems to be a shell of former self..... and has missed as many games( at least it seems that way) as he has played the last 2 years. ....... :/

Morning rams56, Could you take the time sir & identify the defensive players for the sake of morning coffee discussion:coffee:. Myself I think both Hayes, Sims & Westbrooks would be good 34 DL'ers. Ogletree, Barron & Forrest would be excellent interior LB'ers in a 34 too. So far so good but here's the problem

The big issue would be the 43 DT's Brockers & Donald who would not fill the bill as the single 34 NT. Then the Rams roster is totally VOID of any 34 OLB'ers of course the magical special ingredients that makes the 34 defense work. Then neutralizing two of the best defensive players like AD & MB would be plain foolish maybe insane:seizure:.

Sure both AD & MB could play on either side of the NT post but what are you going to do with the other four Ram DE 's Hayes, Sims, Westbrooks & Longacre? Looks like you would be disposing of some good talent which the Ram Org can not afford to do with so many issues ongoing on the other side of the team.... Waste in my opinion.

 

[BonifayRam]

So, my thought process there is if Quinn is determined to be that damaged at his salary he almost has to be let go. Now, the 4/3 DEs are Hayes, Westbrooks, Longacre....doesn't exactly inspire fear. At that point switching to a 3/4 makes a little more sense.
I much prefer a 4/3....but Williams design always required speed and he has been mixing 3 DL in anyway.

All Correct. but the major problem is finding those two special outside winged tweeners pass rushers. Rams roster is void of them, thus Rams will have to use very limited valuable assets to go get them & that's a BIG PROBLEM.

 

[rams56]

I don't believe this team needs an "overhaul"..... in my mind the 4 DTS are very good in a 4-3 scheme....I think there is a lot of talent on this team....that just needs to be developed further....

Morning rams56, can you identify the defensive players for the sake of morning coffee discussion. Myself I think both Hayes, Sims & Westbrooks would be good 34 DL'ers. Ogletree, Barron & Forrest would be excellent interior LB'ers in a 34 too. The very big problem would be Brockers & Donald who would not fill the bill as the single 34 NT. Then the Rams roster is totally VOID of any OLB'ers the magical special ingredients that makes the 34 defense. neutralizing two of the best defensive player like AD & MB would be plain silly. Sure both could play on either side of the NT post but what are you going to do with the other four Ram DE 's Hayes, Sims, Westbrooks & Longacre? Looks like you would be disposing of some good talent which is a Waste in my opinion.

Hi @BonifayRam .... I think your right and my train of thought is right with this^^.....question is do we want to use AD and MB at de? They would be able to tie up Olinemen. ...but is that the way we would want to use Donald or Brockers..... with Ogletree and Barron we would be very light in the middle. But they would have great range.... I think Sims and Longacre would be out for sure.... too light for that scheme. ...and although Hayes has the weight I'm not sure he could do anything more than be a body in that scheme. Very interesting to think about ...that's my thoughts....any ideas?

Go Rams........

 

[fearsomefour]

All Correct. but the major problem is finding those two special outside winged tweeners pass rushers. Rams roster is void of them, thus Rams will have to use very limited valuable assets to go get them & that's a BIG PROBLEM.

I agree 100%, particularly without a first round pick.
Another reason I am staying in a 4/3.
Really the Rams held the Falcons
The top scoring O in the NFL to 21 points.
They held them under 300 yards of O (much of the fourth quarter was garbage time for Atlanta with Ryan on the bench) and they converted under 30% third downs.
This is with quite a few backups getting time. Williams scheme can work and he has an athletic D. Add another traditional LB or two, a DE for depth and atay 4/3.
I would try to retain Williams as well although that is not likely.

 

[BonifayRam]

I don't believe this team needs an "overhaul"..... in my mind the 4 D


Hi @BonifayRam .... I think your right and my train of thought is right with this^^.....question is do we want to use AD and MB at de? They would be able to tie up Olinemen. ...but is that the way we would want to use Donald or Brockers..... with Ogletree and Barron we would be very light in the middle. But they would have great range.... I think Sims and Longacre would be out for sure.... too light for that scheme. ...and although Hayes has the weight I'm not sure he could do anything more than be a body in that scheme. Very interesting to think about ...that's my thoughts....any ideas?

Go Rams........

Agree with you on Longacre, but IMO both Sims, Westbrooks & Hayes have proven to hold up very well playing inside in fact I would :argue: that Sims best play comes when he is lined up inside. Sims starting @ RDE is a bad place to put him he is worthless.

Now Wm Hayes is a very thick & very strong left DE who would excel in a 34 defense as a starter on either side of the NT. Hayes may be even better in a 34 as one of those interior DL'er on either side of the NT. Hayes is that good. Problem with Hayes he is no outside pass rusher period. It would not surprise me if Hayes was moved to the interior DL next season. This season the pass rush has suffered from the slow powerful run dominate Hayes being the main worker on the outside.

Same could be said of the younger tough Ethan Westbrooks. Fact is Westbrooks until this season has played primarily inside not outside. I would not want to trash any of the three Ram DE's talents & skills when it comes to in this discussion of playing on the DL on the 34.

 

[rams56]

Agree with you on Longacre. Both Sims, Westbrooks & Hayes have proven to hold up very well playing inside in fact I would :argue: that Sims best play comes when he is lined up inside. Sims starting @ RDE is a bad place to put him he is worthless. Now Wm Hayes is a very thick & very strong left DE who would excel in a 34 defense as a starter on either side of the NT. Hayes may be even better in a 34 as one of those interior DL'er on either side of the NT Hayes is that good. Problem with Hayes he is no outside pass rusher period. This season the pass rush has suffered from the slow powerful Hayes being the main worker on the outside.

IMO Same could be said of Westbrooks. I could not trash any of the three in this matter.

Oh I promise. .. I was not trying to trash those players..... I just believe in that system they are not as good of fit as they are in a 4-3 and Sims and Hayes were a very good pass rushers from inside but I question weather Sims could play DE in a 3-4 which is a 5 technique or even sometimes a 4 technique against the run over and over....At this point Hayes may actually be a better 5 technique player as he has lost a step. It's really just not wanting to go to a 3-4 scheme because in my mind AD is out of place. .....and he is by far our best player on Defense. ....

Go Rams........

 

[LACHAMP46]

I'm dumping Williams....too many yards....and games against some top out of conference teams that would make a defensive guy puke.

The defense hasn't been disciplined.

And this is the main reason. Missed tackles, missed assignments, and STUPID penalties. Get rid of that element on the team, pronto. It will be interesting to see how many penalties we get called on the D this Thursday.

With the money invested in Barron, you need to bring in a guy who runs a Big Nickel.

Naw...Barron can still play SS....One of the best players on our team...He's NOT a LB...and shouldn't have to continue to play one...

 

[BonifayRam]

I agree 100%, particularly without a first round pick.
Another reason I am staying in a 4/3.
Really the Rams held the Falcons
The top scoring O in the NFL to 21 points.
They held them under 300 yards of O (much of the fourth quarter was garbage time for Atlanta with Ryan on the bench) and they converted under 30% third downs.
This is with quite a few backups getting time. Williams scheme can work and he has an athletic D. Add another traditional LB or two, a DE for depth and atay 4/3.
I would try to retain Williams as well although that is not likely.

Good points! Here's where I am at here ....If this Rams defense this season had an ounce of consistent outside edge pass rush coming from the base 43 DE's the Rams 2016 season would be a completely different story. I know that our interior Run D was weak too but a ton of Gregg's effort was put into finding a LB'er or DB to create that pass outside pass rush left gapping HOLES in areas for the opponents RB to run to daylight in. Yes we saw a bunch of this did we not. Gregg was robbing this season! He rob from other areas of his D unit in his effort & we saw the BAD results.

 

[fearsomefour]

Good points! Here's where I am at here ....If this Rams defense this season had an ounce of consistent outside edge pass rush coming from the base 43 DE's the Rams 2016 season would be a completely different story. I know that our interior Run D was weak too but a ton of Gregg's effort was put into finding a LB'er or DB to create that pass outside pass rush left gapping HOLES in areas for the opponents RB to run to daylight in. Yes we saw a bunch of this did we not. Gregg was robbing this season! He rob from other areas of his D unit in his effort & we saw the BAD results.

There are some holes I agree.
So, the questions are the same....is it a reset or s total reboot?

 

[BonifayRam]

Oh I promise. .. I was not trying to trash those players..... I just believe in that system they are not as good of fit as they are in a 4-3 and Sims and Hayes were a very good pass rushers from inside but I question weather Sims could play DE in a 3-4 which is a 5 technique or even sometimes a 4 technique against the run over and over....At this point Hayes may actually be a better 5 technique player as he has lost a step. It's really just not wanting to go to a 3-4 scheme because in my mind AD is out of place. .....and he is by far our best player on Defense. ....Go Rams........

Well I am guilty of trashing one of them very heavy this season. When it comes to their play in the 43 this season. I have been one of the very few involved in trashing Eugene Sims poor performance @ RDE.

I'm dumping Williams....too many yards....and games against some top out of conference teams that would make a defensive guy puke.

And this is the main reason. Missed tackles, missed assignments, and STUPID penalties. Get rid of that element on the team, pronto. It will be interesting to see how many penalties we get called on the D this Thursday.

Naw...Barron can still play SS....One of the best players on our team...He's NOT a LB...and shouldn't have to continue to play one...

Morning late left coast riser how's it going? Your off to a great start early & mostly on target. I not on your side of the fence on Barron. I said this earlier this month .....playing behind RDE Eugene Sims most of the time would make an all pro LB'er look weak. But your right Barron stands a good chance to return to LOS strong safety post in a new brought in defense. But I still think that a better player in front of him could make you change your mind. I still think that Barron will beef up in 2017, expecting some of the detailed inspection of his play this season & the real biggy his all pro salary. If he does add some serious muscle & good weight he will remain @ WSLB'er in 2017.

 

[DCH]

I'm dumping Williams....too many yards....and games against some top out of conference teams that would make a defensive guy puke.

And this is the main reason. Missed tackles, missed assignments, and STUPID penalties. Get rid of that element on the team, pronto. It will be interesting to see how many penalties we get called on the D this Thursday.

Naw...Barron can still play SS....One of the best players on our team...He's NOT a LB...and shouldn't have to continue to play one...

Yes he can, but you currently have 3 really good SS on the team in Barron, McDonald and Alexander. Do you let McD walk?

 

[LACHAMP46]

Do you let McD walk?

I like TJ McDonald....He's been a favorite of mine since USC. He's always been a hitter. And you know what, I like Mo Alexander too...except....and this is huge...he had his first concussion...I don't think I've EVER seen TJ concussed...So, I gotta go TJ over Mo...but I like Mo.

 

[DCH]

I like TJ McDonald....He's been a favorite of mine since USC. He's always been a hitter. And you know what, I like Mo Alexander too...except....and this is huge...he had his first concussion...I don't think I've EVER seen TJ concussed...So, I gotta go TJ over Mo...but I like Mo.

That's the problem with moving Barron back to SS, though - Barron, Alexander and McD are all strong safeties. None of them are particularly well suited for FS, which is why the Big Nickel takes advantage of the current personnel on the team.

 

[BonifayRam]

Yes he can, but you currently have 3 really good SS on the team in Barron, McDonald and Alexander. Do you let McD walk?

I know you asked Champ but I would like to ask you ...Why would you sign UFA TJ McDonald when we have so many strong safeties prospects signed on the Rams roster in 2017 already? i.e Mark Barron, Mo Alexander, Lamarcus Joyner, Blake Countess, Marqui Christian, Brian Randolph & Isaiah Johnson. Two of which have several seasons as starters in the NFL.

Let him walk? What involvement do the Rams play in this? I would expect TJ McDonald to run towards all those large contract offers from other teams. The only thing that I can think of that would keep TJ in LA his future criminal justice issues from his early season DUI.

 

[dieterbrock]

I'm dumping Williams....too many yards....and games against some top out of conference teams that would make a defensive guy puke.

And this is the main reason. Missed tackles, missed assignments, and STUPID penalties. Get rid of that element on the team, pronto. It will be interesting to see how many penalties we get called on the D this Thursday.

Naw...Barron can still play SS....One of the best players on our team...He's NOT a LB...and shouldn't have to continue to play one...

What he said