What I think is gonna happen

[Roman Snow]

LMAO!!! You made Fisher Don Knotts!!! Hahahahahaha!!!!

And Les is Tim Conway. He was a funny dude.

 

[Bizon]

There was enough to draft him, but take him number one? Trade up for him? Before his outstanding combine?

Mack, Wentz didn't come out of nowhere, I've been following this QB class for over a year. Kiper had Wentz as top 3 QB last May. Both McShay and Kiper had Wentz in the first round mid season. NFL scouts come to NDSU games (we've had a player drafted the last few years), but there was a line of scouts this year for training camp. Wentz has been on the NFL radar for a while. The Senior bowl is when a lot of media scouts caught on. Rumors out of walterfootball (take it however you want) is that the Rams had a scout there to scout the QBs. Said they were really high on Wentz early on in the week. Later on in the week the same scout said we're not going to get him unless we trade up, unlikely.

I really think it's likely the pick is Wentz, but far from certain. Having studied all these QBs Goff is also really impressive.

 

[snackdaddy]

I have not idea who its gonna be. One thing Fisher and Snead are legendary for, is smokescreens. They're surprised us numerous times. Its possible they're open to trading back down a spot. Especially if they think Cleveland covets one guy over the other. Anything is possible with this regime.

If I had to pick who I think it is, I gotta think Wentz. I don't know if Fisher can pass on the more physical type of guy. And by all accounts, Wentz's intelligence and work ethic are off the charts. If anyone can grasp a more complex NFL playbook early, its gotta be him.

But whoever it is, I think we're in better shape than with Keenum/Foles.

 

[Mackeyser]

Mack, Wentz didn't come out of nowhere, I've been following this QB class for over a year. Kiper had Wentz as top 3 QB last May. Both McShay and Kiper had Wentz in the first round mid season. NFL scouts come to NDSU games (we've had a player drafted the last few years), but there was a line of scouts this year for training camp. Wentz has been on the NFL radar for a while. The Senior bowl is when a lot of media scouts caught on. Rumors out of walterfootball (take it however you want) is that the Rams had a scout there to scout the QBs. Said they were really high on Wentz early on in the week. Later on in the week the same scout said we're not going to get him unless we trade up, unlikely.

I really think it's likely the pick is Wentz, but far from certain. Having studied all these QBs Goff is also really impressive.

That's new info to me and good to know. I dunno that it changes anything, but it does put Wentz on the radar prior to the Combine.

 

[Old Rock]

That's new info to me and good to know. I dunno that it changes anything, but it does put Wentz on the radar prior to the Combine.

Here's another thing, Hard Knocks is taking my advice. What does L.A. need? Another Joe Cool arriving in town or a guy riding into town on a bison with guns blazing and Chris Stapleton blaring in the background. Rams want to make an impact and that qualifies in my book. Hard Knocks agree and it's going to be a hell of a show. Stay tuned!

 

[Merlin]

In spite of all the evidence around Goff I maintain the Rams are trolling everyone. They are milking this $h!t for all it's worth. But personally I see no reason to get all worked up about it because these guys both have perennial pro bowl talent.

Wentz is the higher ceiling and I think that's why the Rams take him. But you never know, maybe Fish really does favor Goff.

Just remember this... What's more incendiary: Rams announcing at the 11th hour that it's the guy everyone's hearing that it is? Or the reversal with them taking the guy most would logically assume Fish would take?

Fish and Snead be like :mrburnsevil:

 

[Mackeyser]

That'd be pretty cool.... except, I'm pretty sure they directly communicated with the Eagles whom they have a working relationship with due to the Bradford trade whom they were taking.

And the Eagles were drooling over Wentz before the trade happened.

So when they say "we're getting the pick we wanted"... it definitely NOT Goff for them.

 

[TSFH Fan]

Decisions

or:

 

[jrry32]

It's exactly as I said. Schematically, this offense is a mess and we both know it. With Wentz, like NcMair before him, his ability to create when plays break down would in effect bail out the offense like McNair did for Fisher sooooo many times. McNair as a QB was like the difference between a singer and an entertainer. Some are both and some are just way more of one and not so much the other. Sammy Davis, Jr...love that cat, awesome entertainer. As a singer? Meh. That was McNair. He was a tremendous playmaker. He could create like nobodies business. As a pure passer? Meh. Thing is, Fisher's offenses have ALWAYS been this way. I went back and watched some Tennessee video and...there it was. Without Eddie George being an All-World back and Steve McNair being the consummate playmaker, Fisher woulda been done like Mike Singletary. Fisher had Kerry Collins at QB at one point, a solid if unspectacular pocket passer. Guy would have gone first in the draft if not for some draft haggling. He went 13-3 in 2008 with the journeyman pro-bowler, then went 0-6 and replaced him. He's just never sustained success with a pocket passer. And he's had 20+ years of coaching to look at so that's more than almost everyone else.

I think Goff can have modest success.

But think of this like: the Rams offense is a rough road. Goff is a McLaren and Wentz is a Land Rover. Now Land Rovers can do pretty well on smooth roads, though not nearly as well as a McLaren. However, if you live on or around rough roads and the roads haven't been fixed in 20 years and aren't going to be fixed... Do you want a Land Rover or a McLaren?

Wentz isn't McNair. McNair got scholarship offers from schools like Florida to play HB. Wentz isn't that caliber of athlete. He's not going to be running all over NFL defenses. Nor should he be. If the offensive scheme is so bad that Goff can't succeed as a passer, we're fucked no matter who we pick. We might as well just chalk next season up as a loss and hope the Rams get rid of Fisher.

Fisher has never sustained success with a pocket passer because his pocket passers have been guys like Billy Volek, Kerry Collins, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill, Injured Sam Bradford, Kellen Clemens, etc.

I really hope you don't believe that Fisher would have struggled sustaining success with guys like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc. Because if Fisher can't have success with those guys, we might as well trade for Kaepernick and use the #1 pick on Jalen Ramsey.

 

[jrry32]

In spite of all the evidence around Goff I maintain the Rams are trolling everyone. They are milking this $h!t for all it's worth. But personally I see no reason to get all worked up about it because these guys both have perennial pro bowl talent.

Wentz is the higher ceiling and I think that's why the Rams take him. But you never know, maybe Fish really does favor Goff.

Just remember this... What's more incendiary: Rams announcing at the 11th hour that it's the guy everyone's hearing that it is? Or the reversal with them taking the guy most would logically assume Fish would take?

Fish and Snead be like :mrburnsevil:

Neither would garner more attention than the other. By virtue of having the #1 pick, we're going to get attention. It doesn't matter which guy we announce...unless we go completely off the reservation...that'll definitely get more attention but not the good kind.

 

[Mackeyser]

Wentz isn't McNair. McNair got scholarship offers from schools like Florida to play HB. Wentz isn't that caliber of athlete. He's not going to be running all over NFL defenses. Nor should he be. If the offensive scheme is so bad that Goff can't succeed as a passer, we're freaked no matter who we pick. We might as well just chalk next season up as a loss and hope the Rams get rid of Fisher.

Fisher has never sustained success with a pocket passer because his pocket passers have been guys like Billy Volek, Kerry Collins, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill, Injured Sam Bradford, Kellen Clemens, etc.

I really hope you don't believe that Fisher would have struggled sustaining success with guys like Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Drew Brees, etc. Because if Fisher can't have success with those guys, we might as well trade for Kaepernick and use the #1 pick on Jalen Ramsey.

1) I don't believe Fisher will have success with Boras' offense with ANY of the QBs on the roster, long term.

2) I don't believe Fisher can have success with Boras' offense with ANY of the QBs on the roster OR Goff in the near term (meaning within the next 3 years).

3) I have ZERO faith that Fisher can develop the pure passer that Goff is.

I agree that McNair was more of an "athlete" than Wentz. My point is that Wentz is much more passer than McNair was, they both offer the option to punish a defense that thinks it can pin its ears back.

And yes, let's use Matt Ryan as an example. Without Julio Jones, Matt Ryan looked pretty pedestrian. Russell Wilson has delivered with Golden Taint (who I think was underrated a bit) and Doug Wilson and definitely no Julio Jones types. He's made it very difficult on defenses because he adds conditions. He takes away certain stunts because some stunts allow him to break contain. He takes away certain DE rush moves because if the DE just rushes upfield and then wants to work his way back, Wilson can just run between that gap for an easy first down. How many times have we seen that little deal? We're one of the few teams that don't let him regularly do that, now.

Someone like Wentz covers the flaws in Fisher's thinking. He allows for a different alternative. He slows down the rush, closes off some rush routes and guys have to rush strong because Wentz is hard to bring down (that's the years of lifting, especially the lower body work). The offense is still totally craptastic, but he at least has the chance to make fuel from the cow patties...

All along, I didn't say I liked Wentz better because HE was better, per se. I said I liked him better for the Rams because he fits what the Rams are "trying" to do. What they are trying to do won't work with a pocket passer as defenses keep pointing out with umpteen 3 and outs and stoppages on 3rd downs.

But Fisher thinks if he only had Matt Ryan, he'd be in the playoffs or winning Super Bowls. That's the missing piece. Which is crazy because Matt Ryan wasn't Matt Ryan without Julio Jones. And we don't have anything in the same hemisphere as Julio Jones.

I dunno what Fisher would do with an All-World QB passer type. Technically, if Goff was THAT guy, he'd be revamping EVERYTHING to set this guy up to succeed. But he's not. He's gonna trot out the offense that has no answer for anything greater than 3rd and 5 and can't come from behind.

He's thinking he's just a few blown tires from winning the Indy 500 in a busted out hoopdie of an offensive scheme. Is he getting a good driver matter? Yeah. Short of getting one of the all time greats, will it matter? Not with this mess... Honestly, with what we saw the last 4 games, I really don't know how much better anyone could have done, even with plays clearly left on the field.

Unfortunately, yeah, it means as I look forward, it looks bleak. I haven't felt that way in a long time. I tend to be a pollyanna of sorts. But I can't ignore what I see.

I think Tennessee is gonna have two ridiculously high picks in the draft next year...

Man, I'd eat cheese to be wrong (and I'm really lactose intolerant now). I just don't see that I will be and I'll feel like absolute hot garbage if I am, cuz it will mean we had a crappy season.

Who knows... maybe this all sucks super hard, Fisher gets fired and the next coach finds a way to turn Goff or Mannion or whomever into the next Rams super QB in the long lineage of Rams super QBs.

 

[Dodgersrf]

1) I don't believe Fisher will have success with Boras' offense with ANY of the QBs on the roster, long term.

2) I don't believe Fisher can have success with Boras' offense with ANY of the QBs on the roster OR Goff in the near term (meaning within the next 3 years).

3) I have ZERO faith that Fisher can develop the pure passer that Goff is.

I agree that McNair was more of an "athlete" than Wentz. My point is that Wentz is much more passer than McNair was, they both offer the option to punish a defense that thinks it can pin its ears back.

And yes, let's use Matt Ryan as an example. Without Julio Jones, Matt Ryan looked pretty pedestrian. Russell Wilson has delivered with Golden Taint (who I think was underrated a bit) and Doug Wilson and definitely no Julio Jones types. He's made it very difficult on defenses because he adds conditions. He takes away certain stunts because some stunts allow him to break contain. He takes away certain DE rush moves because if the DE just rushes upfield and then wants to work his way back, Wilson can just run between that gap for an easy first down. How many times have we seen that little deal? We're one of the few teams that don't let him regularly do that, now.

Someone like Wentz covers the flaws in Fisher's thinking. He allows for a different alternative. He slows down the rush, closes off some rush routes and guys have to rush strong because Wentz is hard to bring down (that's the years of lifting, especially the lower body work). The offense is still totally craptastic, but he at least has the chance to make fuel from the cow patties...

All along, I didn't say I liked Wentz better because HE was better, per se. I said I liked him better for the Rams because he fits what the Rams are "trying" to do. What they are trying to do won't work with a pocket passer as defenses keep pointing out with umpteen 3 and outs and stoppages on 3rd downs.

But Fisher thinks if he only had Matt Ryan, he'd be in the playoffs or winning Super Bowls. That's the missing piece. Which is crazy because Matt Ryan wasn't Matt Ryan without Julio Jones. And we don't have anything in the same hemisphere as Julio Jones.

I dunno what Fisher would do with an All-World QB passer type. Technically, if Goff was THAT guy, he'd be revamping EVERYTHING to set this guy up to succeed. But he's not. He's gonna trot out the offense that has no answer for anything greater than 3rd and 5 and can't come from behind.

He's thinking he's just a few blown tires from winning the Indy 500 in a busted out hoopdie of an offensive scheme. Is he getting a good driver matter? Yeah. Short of getting one of the all time greats, will it matter? Not with this mess... Honestly, with what we saw the last 4 games, I really don't know how much better anyone could have done, even with plays clearly left on the field.

Unfortunately, yeah, it means as I look forward, it looks bleak. I haven't felt that way in a long time. I tend to be a pollyanna of sorts. But I can't ignore what I see.

I think Tennessee is gonna have two ridiculously high picks in the draft next year...

Man, I'd eat cheese to be wrong (and I'm really lactose intolerant now). I just don't see that I will be and I'll feel like absolute hot garbage if I am, cuz it will mean we had a crappy season.

Who knows... maybe this all sucks super hard, Fisher gets fired and the next coach finds a way to turn Goff or Mannion or whomever into the next Rams super QB in the long lineage of Rams super QBs.

It's no secret that we need help at WR.
That shouldn't keep us from taking an excellent QB prospect.

 

[DB16]

I'm a Wentz supporter. Love the whole underdog tale of it. And watching him play does resemble an Aaron-Rodgers-like feel.

But Goff is accurate. He's one of the most accurate passers to come out in a long time. I like his legs. His firm resolve. And he can scramble if the coaches let him, cause he's fast for a QB. Like Winston fast I believe. However he comes from an Air-Raid offense. I don't know many pros to come from an Air-Raid offense and succeed under the many formations of the Pros for very long. He was also a Niner fan growing up. Makes me biased with my hatred.

In the end, I'm just freaking happy with either of them. A quarterback is a huge need. Glad it's potentially filled for the next handful of years.

 

[jrry32]

1) I don't believe Fisher will have success with Boras' offense with ANY of the QBs on the roster, long term.

2) I don't believe Fisher can have success with Boras' offense with ANY of the QBs on the roster OR Goff in the near term (meaning within the next 3 years).

3) I have ZERO faith that Fisher can develop the pure passer that Goff is.

I agree that McNair was more of an "athlete" than Wentz. My point is that Wentz is much more passer than McNair was, they both offer the option to punish a defense that thinks it can pin its ears back.

But Goff is every bit the passer that Wentz is (if not arguably better). You just argued that he won't succeed here. Thus, the inference we must draw is that passing is less important than running for a Rams QB. Which is just completely out there for me.

Fisher isn't developing Goff. We brought in Groh and Weinke to do that.

And yes, let's use Matt Ryan as an example. Without Julio Jones, Matt Ryan looked pretty pedestrian. Russell Wilson has delivered with Golden Taint (who I think was underrated a bit) and Doug Wilson and definitely no Julio Jones types. He's made it very difficult on defenses because he adds conditions. He takes away certain stunts because some stunts allow him to break contain. He takes away certain DE rush moves because if the DE just rushes upfield and then wants to work his way back, Wilson can just run between that gap for an easy first down. How many times have we seen that little deal? We're one of the few teams that don't let him regularly do that, now.

Matt Ryan looked just as pedestrian this year with Julio Jones. That's great that Wilson can run but Tom Brady can't. And yet he's produced with guys like Reche Caldwell, Brandon Lafell, David Patten, etc. Peyton Manning produced with anyone you put around him. Philip Rivers produced with anyone they put around him. Drew Brees produced with anyone they put around him in New Orleans. Aaron Rodgers produced this year with one of the league's worst WR corps.

In fact, there was a strong bias against mobile QBs for a long time. Pocket passing QBs have always been the traditional prototype. Not really sure how it is that Goff can't succeed because he wins in the most traditional and proven way.

Someone like Wentz covers the flaws in Fisher's thinking. He allows for a different alternative. He slows down the rush, closes off some rush routes and guys have to rush strong because Wentz is hard to bring down (that's the years of lifting, especially the lower body work). The offense is still totally craptastic, but he at least has the chance to make fuel from the cow patties...

Except Wentz isn't that hard to bring down in the pocket. And he only slows down the rush if he's a major running threat which he's not. In fact, Goff is a much more frustrating guy for a pass rush because of how well he moves in the pocket and how good his instincts are. It's like going up against Tom Brady and Drew Brees. Doesn't matter how good a job you do at collapsing the pocket, they always seem to find day-light and get the ball out.

All along, I didn't say I liked Wentz better because HE was better, per se. I said I liked him better for the Rams because he fits what the Rams are "trying" to do. What they are trying to do won't work with a pocket passer as defenses keep pointing out with umpteen 3 and outs and stoppages on 3rd downs.

What we are trying to do doesn't work with shitty pocket passers. It wouldn't work with shitty mobile QBs either.

But Fisher thinks if he only had Matt Ryan, he'd be in the playoffs or winning Super Bowls. That's the missing piece. Which is crazy because Matt Ryan wasn't Matt Ryan without Julio Jones. And we don't have anything in the same hemisphere as Julio Jones.

Matt Ryan led the Falcons to 3 playoff appearances in 3 years prior to Julio Jones being drafted. And the year before Julio was drafted, Ryan threw for 28 TDs to 9 Ints. Goff has the potential to be more than Matt Ryan. But even if he is "just" Matt Ryan, we'll be fine. Julio Jones didn't make Matt Ryan.

I dunno what Fisher would do with an All-World QB passer type. Technically, if Goff was THAT guy, he'd be revamping EVERYTHING to set this guy up to succeed. But he's not. He's gonna trot out the offense that has no answer for anything greater than 3rd and 5 and can't come from behind.

What would he be revamping? We threw the ball 550+ times with a healthy Sam Bradford. Fisher isn't afraid of throwing the ball if he has a starting caliber QB.

And frankly, it's baffling to me that you think the offense having no answer for anything greater than a 3rd and 5 wasn't due to the fact that we were starting BACKUP CALIBER QUARTERBACKS. You can't normally get a first down running the ball on 3rd and 7. Which means throwing the ball with your 32nd ranked passing attack...because you have the worst QB play in the NFL.

He's thinking he's just a few blown tires from winning the Indy 500 in a busted out hoopdie of an offensive scheme. Is he getting a good driver matter? Yeah. Short of getting one of the all time greats, will it matter? Not with this mess... Honestly, with what we saw the last 4 games, I really don't know how much better anyone could have done, even with plays clearly left on the field.

Unfortunately, yeah, it means as I look forward, it looks bleak. I haven't felt that way in a long time. I tend to be a pollyanna of sorts. But I can't ignore what I see.

I think Tennessee is gonna have two ridiculously high picks in the draft next year...

Man, I'd eat cheese to be wrong (and I'm really lactose intolerant now). I just don't see that I will be and I'll feel like absolute hot garbage if I am, cuz it will mean we had a crappy season.

Who knows... maybe this all sucks super hard, Fisher gets fired and the next coach finds a way to turn Goff or Mannion or whomever into the next Rams super QB in the long lineage of Rams super QBs.

Yea, I think it's kind of ridiculous to toss out all this doom and gloom because you think the Rams won't draft your guy. If the passing game is this fucked, Wentz isn't fixing it.

Wentz isn't Michael Vick. He's not Russell Wilson. He's not Steve McNair. He's not RGIII. He's not Colin Kaepernick. He's not going to carry our offense or materially change the offense with his running ability.

If him or Goff pan out, they'll pan out because of their passing ability. That's what makes both of them potentially special.

 

[Gandalf]

Well, that will be Goff being "The Answer" if he hits all those WRs, but it won't change all the other things I mentioned.

No one will ever confuse a Fisher offense with Asshole Face's.

The offensive scheme is a mess.

Seriously, how did we all forget that in just a few short months???

Hopefully a good, young QB, a true stud RB and moving to LA with the best stadium in the league on the way will entice a top end OC to join the Rams. I don't think the problem was Fisher wanting a top OC, I think the problem was getting one join the team.

 

[Mackeyser]

It's no secret that we need help at WR.
That shouldn't keep us from taking an excellent QB prospect.

Yes. And Goff is an excellent QB prospect.

Not every player is a fit in every system.

What Boras is running, this...thing...they call a system...has holes. It has no answers for a number of obvious and frequently occurring game scenarios, like 3rd and 6.

My point in advocating for one over the other...and I'll say this for the last time, cuz I'm just repeating myself and you all gotta be tired of reading it, I know I'm tired of typing it... is that I don't think Wentz is better, per se.

I like Goff. Quite a bit, actually. And... if like jrry and I joked about last off-season I think, if they'd fired Fisher and hired Asshole Face, then I'd be FIRST in line saying that GOFF is the natural pick.

However, Fisher is the HC and has created with Gregg Williams a D and with Haslett a Special Teams that not only keeps them in games, but essentially allows them to win just enough to make the statements that "if we'd only made a few more plays... we'd have won X more games." Well, that's nonsense because so many games in the NFL come down to a few plays. So, he's able to win just enough and lay claim to even more with the "if only..." bit of...charm... as if the opponent couldn't also say, "if only we could have gotten this sack or actually caught that INT or our guy hadn't dropped that pass, it would have been a blowout instead of a close game..."

When I look at the offense solely based on the merits of the offense, I'm more than concerned. Our schedule compounds that. Our division will always complicate that.

Wilson creates difficulties because he's mobile. Carson Palmer creates difficulties because he's in a fantastic system and has very good weapons and he's very good in the pocket (Man, I hate Arians as the Cards HC, but I'd LOVE him as the Rams HC...). Kaep was dangerous as hell when Coach Harbaugh was there because he minimized his weaknesses and created opportunities that allowed Kaep to have easy mismatches.

If Gurley isn't breaking long runs, what is this offense? I dunno that anyone can answer that.

I thought and think that Wentz would allow for them to MacGyver some Cam plays to free up Gurley who they want to be the centerpiece. That could work. Maybe. I still didn't have confidence in the offense, but they did show the ability to weld on bits that worked here and there.

Goff doesn't offer that. They're basically looking for a better Case Keenum. And they got that.

I think they're going to find it doesn't yield nearly as much as they think because Keenum is better than they thought and their system stinks much worse than they thought.

But ya know... If we have 4 weeks of vent threads to open the season, I'm not gonna be about that. I almost desperately want the Rams to win.

 

[Roman Snow]

Dammit, I feel like an Indian man waiting for his parents to pick his wife for the arraigned marriage... waiting to find out who my wife is... so I can fall in love with her.

Why do I have an image of Carson Wentz, with a dot on his forehead, and a half dozen baby buffalo looking to me for direction in a prairie? Make it go away!!

 

[jrry32]

Goff doesn't offer that. They're basically looking for a better Case Keenum. And they got that.

I think they're going to find it doesn't yield nearly as much as they think because Keenum is better than they thought and their system stinks much worse than they thought.

Is Drew Brees a better Case Keenum? Tom Brady? Philip Rivers? Seems like you're throwing all pocket passers into a pot here. Goff isn't like Keenum...in a good way. He's much much better.

And frankly, I think it's more likely that Keenum is worse than people thought than better. The system is much more likely better than what people thought. Kind of like how an offense can go from ranked #4 in the NFL to #28 in the NFL due to an injury to the QB (Peyton Manning and the Colts). System didn't change. But QBs are that important.

I think people underestimate how bad our QBs were last year. I'm never going to subscribe to the idea that the offense is just screwed. It's unfortunate that we don't have the same caliber of offensive minds that we do defensive minds (at least, that we know of yet). Because Gregg Williams is amazing at adjusting his system to the talent he has. But you put enough talent in any system and it will work. Upgrading from Foles/Keenum to a #1 overall pick will make a major difference. That's a serious difference in talent. And I think you're underestimating that. I really don't understand this stance that Drew Brees (or a Drew Brees like QB) would be elite under Asshole Face but somehow be terrible here.

A great QB is a great QB. They tend to rise above the system they play in.

 

[SteveBrown]

Mackeyser, excellent first three points.
I never like Montana, until I was 45+ years old.....but, he is one of the all time greats, and I see Goff has all of his traits, including a slinky-dink arm. But, perfect timing with a mediocre arm will bring success. I saw Montana, age 38, live in 1994, throwing rainbows 15-20 yards off the line of scrimmage, but they still had PERFECT timing! Goff has the unteachable timing-anticipation and feet and coolness of JOe. Goff's 36 wonderlic will put him at the level of Bernie Kosar. Remember, Kosar had the worst arm ever, but he was a winner. The arm strength is not that important.

My problem with Goff is his under center experience....so, he may not succeed in 2016, but by 2017 he will be pro bowl quality.

Ferragamo, T. Bradshaw, Everett, Elway, Wentz arms are fun to watch--but it is the whole package we need....Goff doesn't have the gun, and neither do/did the Brees/Montana types....Goff will gain another 15 pounds in the next 2-4 years and get stronger, just like Brees did...Look at Brees in 2002...I hated his arm, but it got better. Brees is a hall of famer, and Goff has all those traits.

Ya, I did a 180 on Goff, but I would be happy with Wentz, too. Wentz is missing experience--and I have a hard time believeing 2 years at division 2 is enough to 'step into the big leagues'. Our insurance =Gurley and the Big O line.

This draft is for the next 3-5+ years. Maybe Wentz will become better, but I think Goff is the next Montana: accuracy, feet, timing, intelligence, toughness, cool.

 

[Mackeyser]

But Goff is every bit the passer that Wentz is (if not arguably better). You just argued that he won't succeed here. Thus, the inference we must draw is that passing is less important than running for a Rams QB. Which is just completely out there for me.

Fisher isn't developing Goff. We brought in Groh and Weinke to do that.

Now hold on a sec.I agree that Goff's the slightly better passer. I didn't say passing was LESS important. I'm outright saying that this system has serious schematic flaws that can't just be defeated with a nicely thrown ball. Plus, you can't complete a pass for a play that's never called or never drawn up.

Matt Ryan looked just as pedestrian this year with Julio Jones. That's great that Wilson can run but Tom Brady can't. And yet he's produced with guys like Reche Caldwell, Brandon Lafell, David Patten, etc. Peyton Manning produced with anyone you put around him. Philip Rivers produced with anyone they put around him. Drew Brees produced with anyone they put around him in New Orleans. Aaron Rodgers produced this year with one of the league's worst WR corps.

In fact, there was a strong bias against mobile QBs for a long time. Pocket passing QBs have always been the traditional prototype. Not really sure how it is that Goff can't succeed because he wins in the most traditional and proven way.

C'mon, really? Tom Brady has been playing in the EP offense since he got to New England. Same system. Brees, same thing with Asshole Face's Gulf Coast WCO. They know those offenses inside out and backwards after YEARS of being in those offenses which makes it easier to substitute out the other skill positions as Brady and Brees have demonstrated...AND which makes my point that having a coherent and dedicated offensive system in which a pure passer can thrive can be a major part of the development of a Franchise QB. It certainly was a big part of Roethlisberger's development. Peyton Manning was in the same system for all of his career except the last one. Denver agreed to run his system and he set records in Denver even as everyone ELSE switched. Why? Because the QB is the hub of the offense. Thus, he could produce even as guys were in or out. Same with Aaron Rodgers. Same with Philip Rivers. Every last one of those guys have one thing in common: The same offensive system their entire time (I think Big Ben switched to the EP a few years in, but still) and a full commitment to a coherent and dynamic offense.

What is Goff coming into? Is he coming into a fully committed WCO with personnel that fits a WCO and that can adapt to personnel changes and is dynamic to adjust to defenses and game situations? No? Perhaps a Earhardt Perkins system? A Coryell variant? No?

Hmmm. He's coming into a team that fits from a personnel perspective a power running, play action vertical passing offense that would indicate an EP variant that Pittsburgh runs or a Coryell variant like Washington ran during the 80s. The presence of Tavon Austin as well as the big WRs would indicate that the personnel favors the EP variant. However, the scheme is a quasi-WCO with elements from other systems cobbled together to get Tavon more touches and, hopefully, allow Gurley to break long runs.

I'll say it, again. IF...IF we had a stable system like Payton's Gulf Coast WCO (especially that because it would emphasize Goff's processing), then the choice would be easy. WE DON'T. The point of what Wentz would bring isn't that he'd be a running QB like Kaep or RG3.../shudder. No. It's that he'd be a threat to create with more than the pass. Might he have a playcalled bootleg once or twice a game like Wilson? Sure. It lets teams know that they have to keep backside contain. That LB can't be peekin'. If he does, Wentz could pull a Wilson and fake a handoff and run for a critical first down when the LBs crash the box as we've seen Wilson do time and time again. Wilson's not a running QB, but he's a QB who takes advantage of opportunities and he keeps defenses honest. Lynch had a slightly easier time because teams couldn't just stack the box on them like they wanted to.

Would that have made Wentz's prospects awesome? Not likely. I got hyped a bit while just looking at the game vids and thought maybe so for a minute, but once I started watching the Rams vids... nah. I couldn't maintain that. But with what the new prospect was walking into, the reality of it... I thought Wentz could have more success than Goff. And yes, the more I look at it, the more I realize it's likely shades of meager.

Except Wentz isn't that hard to bring down in the pocket. And he only slows down the rush if he's a major running threat which he's not. In fact, Goff is a much more frustrating guy for a pass rush because of how well he moves in the pocket and how good his instincts are. It's like going up against Tom Brady and Drew Brees. Doesn't matter how good a job you do at collapsing the pocket, they always seem to find day-light and get the ball out.

What we are trying to do doesn't work with crappy pocket passers. It wouldn't work with crappy mobile QBs either.

Firstly, he's pretty tough to bring down. Wilson and Rodgers slow down the rush and neither are major running threats. And, I'm sorry, Goff is just not Brady or Brees. That's hyperbole. The most I'll say about Wentz is that he reminds me of Big Ben and a shade of Cam or could be used like Wilson to keep defenses honest. Let's get the Gold Jacket off these guys who've never taken a snap. It's not like going up against Brady or Brees because Goff has never played at this speed and he'll struggle at the pro level. Just like Aikman did. Just like P Manning did. Just like Tom Brady did (he won some games, but his play was borderline). Just like a bunch did. And maybe, just maybe...he'll be good and maybe after that he'll be better than that. Oh, and pretty sure the 2007 NY Giants proved they don't always find daylight when they sacked Brady 5 times on their way to winning the Super Bowl. Again, part of "always finding their way out" is that they know their systems so well, that they know where all the pieces are and know where they need to go to make a play. WE don't have a system that will give ANY of our QBs that. So when the pocket breaks down, they won't have that same thing. It's not just sliding to slide. Brady slides one way versus another because one way allows him a chance to make a play. Far too often when our pocket breaks down...there IS NO PLAY TO BE MADE. Watch the last few Rams games and see if you disagree.

Matt Ryan led the Falcons to 3 playoff appearances in 3 years prior to Julio Jones being drafted. And the year before Julio was drafted, Ryan threw for 28 TDs to 9 Ints. Goff has the potential to be more than Matt Ryan. But even if he is "just" Matt Ryan, we'll be fine. Julio Jones didn't make Matt Ryan.

Ryan led the Falcons to the playoffs in a weak conference. And I'm supposed to get all excited about the "Franchise QB" who throws 28 TDs? What is this, 1988? Fitzpatrick threw 31 TDs last year for the Jets... Fitzpatrick. And I'm supposed to get excited that Goff could one day be Ryan and throw 28 TDs? I gotta tell ya, I'm not.

What would he be revamping? We threw the ball 550+ times with a healthy Sam Bradford. Fisher isn't afraid of throwing the ball if he has a starting caliber QB.

And frankly, it's baffling to me that you think the offense having no answer for anything greater than a 3rd and 5 wasn't due to the fact that we were starting BACKUP CALIBER QUARTERBACKS. You can't normally get a first down running the ball on 3rd and 7. Which means throwing the ball with your 32nd ranked passing attack...because you have the worst QB play in the NFL.

You're funny. Now you're on board with Fisher cuz he got Goff? You wanted Fisher fired a year ago and now you have faith that he's going to adapt because he got the guy you wanted?

Okay, I guess. /shrug

Yea, I think it's kind of ridiculous to toss out all this doom and gloom because you think the Rams won't draft your guy. If the passing game is this freaked, Wentz isn't fixing it.

Wentz isn't Michael Vick. He's not Russell Wilson. He's not Steve McNair. He's not RGIII. He's not Colin Kaepernick. He's not going to carry our offense or materially change the offense with his running ability.

If him or Goff pan out, they'll pan out because of their passing ability. That's what makes both of them potentially special.

I really resent that. I've repeatedly stated my opinion and what it's based on and why.

You put Goff on Mt. Olympus and stated he was the Next Peyton Manning.

I said I liked them both. I said under which conditions I would like Goff better and which I would like Wentz better. I like BOTH prospects.

This was NEVER about MY GUY. That's just BS and you know better than that. I'm not just some PD poster who's bitching cuz I'm not getting my way. I've been posting for almost 20 years now.