Westbrooks or Sam

[blue4]

So your only response is to ignore what I said about Sam, as it compares to SIZE and WEIGHT compared to Quinns? It took Robert Quinn into his 3rd year to really learn to perfect his technique as a compete DE. I mm in no way trying to say Sam has comparable talent, but they are similar in weight. So that for me should negate your concern that he is too light.

My point to the extra reps, have you ever heard of "Camp legs"? Westbrooks missed virtually 3 weeks of camp. While Sam took twice the reps of any other DL on the roster. Do you not think that just maybe he has leveled off due to hitting the proverbial wall, while Westbrooks is just hitting his stride after missing so much time?

IMO, too much is being made of where Sam was drafted, as some sort of statement as to his "true" talent, when I didn't hear of a single draft "expert" that had him anything other than a mid round 4-5 round talent. I'm guessing you didn't watch much of Michael Sam at Mizzou. Or you discount the impact he had on the SEC. So with thatsaid, I definitely think you are underestimating his ability, and over estimating Westbrooks to some degree.

I didn't ignore your comments about weight. I pretty much said Quinn was a freak of nature. Why that's relevent to Sam I don't know. I still think 257 is too light.

Apparently 31 other football teams discounted what he did in the college game. Unless everyone but us can't look past his being gay, which I find hard to believe, if he can supposedly do things other DEs can't.

As far as overestimating goes, I've been very careful to point out that I'm basing this on 2 preseason games, that there is much time left, and that I think both are just somewhat normal low tier rookies who haven't proved a thing. I don't think that believing Westbrooks has more future upside constitutes any over estimation.
I'm not the one claiming that either one "can do things few other DEs can do."

I'm just answering the OPs question of which one. This is all just my opinion, and I hope this post has summed up my thinking. I would like to let it drop, before it derails the thread. If you're correct in your estimation of Sam it will only mean good things for this team.

 

[JackDRams]

I'm still waiting for Carrington and Conrath to earn their keep. Sam and Westbrooks are showing their skills. The other two, not so much. Even Sims has done good things.

 

[Blue and Gold]

 

[CoachO]

I didn't ignore your comments about weight. I pretty much said Quinn was a freak of nature. Why that's relevent to Sam I don't know. I still think 257 is too light.

Apparently 31 other football teams discounted what he did in the college game. Unless everyone but us can't look past his being gay, which I find hard to believe, if he can supposedly do things other DEs can't.

As far as overestimating goes, I've been very careful to point out that I'm basing this on 2 preseason games, that there is much time left, and that I think both are just somewhat normal low tier rookies who haven't proved a thing. I don't think that believing Westbrooks has more future upside constitutes any over estimation.
I'm not the one claiming that either one "can do things few other DEs can do."

I'm just answering the OPs question of which one. This is all just my opinion, and I hope this post has summed up my thinking. I would like to let it drop, before it derails the thread. If you're correct in your estimation of Sam it will only mean good things for this team.

Fair enough,, I was just playing devils advocate here. because I honestly think that both of them have shown enough to make the roster.

 

[Blue and Gold]

 

[OC_Ram]

time to pack your shit.

 

[Akrasian]

I would be surprised if either made it through waivers to the practice squad at this point. Both have been too productive in games. Even if Sam is limited in terms of teams that run the right system - there definitely are a number who he could help at the end of the roster at least. Which is all anybody released would be, at least initially.

Any fears of Sam being an issue are mostly gone by this time. He's shown that he wants to focus on football, and is a good teammate. And more importantly - tweener or not, he has shown that he is able to play in the NFL. At this stage, a team like the Cowboys would just be happy to get the much needed depth via waiver claim.

It doesn't hurt that he's had a lot of coaching from respected coaches, either.

 

[AutumnWind]

How do you overestimate Westbrooks ability when he has been playing against the 1s and 2s on the competitions offense? It is just what it is. This is the NFL...missing that time should have put him at a disadvantage right? not an advantage. I think that may hold true for veterans but not UDRFs.

Westbrooks has outplayed Sam in the first two preseason games.....no more, no less at this point. But it has been fun to watch the young guy. If this continues, we will see if politics get in the way. I heard something about Michael Sam's jersey is one of the fastest selling in the NFL at this point. Not sure if it's true, just something I read recently. Ironic...but if and when Westbrooks makes the team, I highly doubt he would stay #62...what number would he don? Oh wait, #96 may be available by then.

So your only response is to ignore what I said about Sam, as it compares to SIZE and WEIGHT compared to Quinns? It took Robert Quinn into his 3rd year to really learn to perfect his technique as a compete DE. I mm in no way trying to say Sam has comparable talent, but they are similar in weight. So that for me should negate your concern that he is too light.

My point to the extra reps, have you ever heard of "Camp legs"? Westbrooks missed virtually 3 weeks of camp. While Sam took twice the reps of any other DL on the roster. Do you not think that just maybe he has leveled off due to hitting the proverbial wall, while Westbrooks is just hitting his stride after missing so much time?

IMO, too much is being made of where Sam was drafted, as some sort of statement as to his "true" talent, when I didn't hear of a single draft "expert" that had him anything other than a mid round 4-5 round talent. I'm guessing you didn't watch much of Michael Sam at Mizzou. Or you discount the impact he had on the SEC. So with thatsaid, I definitely think you are underestimating his ability, and over estimating Westbrooks to some degree.

 

[theramsruleUK]

You got to keep westbrooks. He looks like complete beast and probably the steal of the draft.
If Sam turns up on special teams, then yeah keep him on the roster. If not, Practice squad for Sam

 

[shovelpass]

In the perfect world, we keep both, and they are valuable assets for years to come. What I think will happen is one gets cut (hopefully landing on our PS) and the other dresses for 6 games. As of right now Westbrooks play is convincing, but there is still 2 more games left.

 

[CoachO]

How do you overestimate Westbrooks ability when he has been playing against the 1s and 2s on the competitions offense? It is just what it is. This is the NFL...missing that time should have put him at a disadvantage right? not an advantage. I think that may hold true for veterans but not UDRFs.

That happened in last week's game vs. Green Bay. Not so much in the game vs. New Orleans. They reversed roles with Sam showing up with roughly 5 minutes left in the 1st quarter, and Westbrooks playing in the second half. Not quite sure why you feel the need to put down Sam, in this comparison. I think Westbrooks has played well, but let's not try to say that Sam hasn't.

And if you don't think the "camp legs" isn't real, then you really don't understand what goes on out here. You watch 2 preseason games, and make your evaluations off of that. I have seen every snap these guys have taken throughout preseason, and it's a reality that guys get worn down at this time of training camp.

 

[iBruce]

I say both, as neither will be able to be held on our PS. I hope they both keep flashing in these last 2 preseason games and we only keep 2 QBs on the roster. When the DL is your greatest asset on the team, it's fine to stack it to keep it healthy.

 

[AutumnWind]

That happened in last week's game vs. Green Bay. Not so much in the game vs. New Orleans. They reversed roles with Sam showing up with roughly 5 minutes left in the 1st quarter, and Westbrooks playing in the second half. Not quite sure why you feel the need to put down Sam, in this comparison. I think Westbrooks has played well, but let's not try to say that Sam hasn't.

And if you don't think the "camp legs" isn't real, then you really don't understand what goes on out here. You watch 2 preseason games, and make your evaluations off of that. I have sen every snap these guys have taken throughout preseason, and it's a reality that guys get worn down at this time of training camp.

Coach....I definintely am not saying it isn't real. I played a little ball in college as well as ran track. I understand fatigue. What I'm saying is any and all of my associates who have made it to the level where these guys are all admit it's rigorous, but they all say there is no time for that when you're fighting for a spot (on the bubble). I'm also saying that the argument has been stated in posts both directions.....the fact that Westbrooks missed so much time was supposedly a factor against him, as well as the argument that Sam has been through the workouts longer and may be tired. I really don't know which direction to go with this argument because I can see both sides of a very valid point.

As far as putting Sam down? No, just an opinion in comparing the two. If you read my earlier post it says that I saw that Sam looked great on some plays showing exactly why he was the defensive power he was in college. I am absolutely thrilled about the whole situation, I think it's great for football and even better for the Rams to have such a decision to make. And yes, you're right about the roles being switched playing 1s and 2s and in this comparison, Westbrooks' showing was even better against the opponents 1s and 2s in week 2 than he was in week one vs. the 2s and 3s. Would you agree with that? I absolutely love the whole conversation and you have some very good points.....which makes this all the better for forums such as this. I'm loving this. So please don't take it as I'm knocking Sam. How can you knock the guy as a football player, personally I cannot.

 

[A320driver]

My observations in camp have been that M. Sam will give 150% on every snap, and that relentless drive has made him some time . With the incredible depth at their position it's going to be not as tough to let either go. With the loss of I. Pead who I had as a lock, that opening could create a place for both..I'll defer to Coach O on which one has contributed more, or looks to be a greater factor on ST..Westbrook does have more athletic ability and upside than Michael.
I can see this going anywhere...hey guys it's the NFL. I have seen teams do stuff that seems to come out of "left field"?

FYI: Everywhere across the league agents call the 30th of August "WTF day"

 

[Prime Time]

Why did everyone overlook Ethan Westbrooks?
By Ryan Van Bibber  @justRVB on Aug 18 2014

Scott Rovak-USA TODAY Sports

The Rams may have scored with UDFA pass rusher Ethan Westbrooks, but his preseason dominance begs the question why nobody bothered drafting him in May.

Lampooning the NFL Draft media industrial complex is old hat for me. After all, we've seen in the past that these things are usually written by child-fearing, sorta racist, big brother, Shield loving wannabes ... and Nolan Nawrocki, the guy who famously read too much into Cam Newton's smile. That's fine. It gave theSt. Louis Rams a steal on Janoris Jenkins in the 2012 Draft and again with UDFA Ethan Westbrooks, who's tearing up the field in camp and the preseason this year.

So how did a player as talented as Westbrooks not get drafted? HE'S GOT TATTOOS!

Well, there's that, and the fact that he played at a small school (West Texas A&M) and some scouts questioned his motor from snap to snap.

BUT THOSE TATTOOS.

Here's the scouting report from Nawrocki himself. Among the highlights:

Talented, enigmatic Division II edge rusher who marches to the beat of his own drum, but has intriguing, raw, natural ability to harass quarterbacks. Wild-card prospect with diamond-in-the-rough characteristics if a defensive line coach is able to refine the technical aspects of his game and stoke his fire.

Okay, pretty tame, even sensible by Nawrocki standards. Rob Rang at CBS was having none of that.

Sports a heavily tattooed frame (including on his face) and that some will take as a character red-flag.



Also sporting a "heavily tattooed frame" are major character risks like Chris Long and James Laurinaitis. Beloved St. Louis sports hero Yadier Molina, the Cardinals catcher, has a neck tattoo.

You might recall Rang, he was the one who dropped Michael Sam from the 90th ranked player to the 160th ranked player within 12 hours of Sam revealing to the world that he was gay. He bumped Sam back up to No. 110 on his list later that day, because obviously draft rankings are a very serious thing that folks don't take lightly.

Odd that Sam and Westbrooks are competing against each other for a roster spot with the Rams, no?

Westbrooks' has shown that raw talent in the preseason and camp so far, and the Rams defensive line might be better off for it, face tattoo and all.

I'll have to say, after watching his Combine workout again, he might have a shot to make the roster at wide receiver. Look ...



Very effective on the short pass, the perfect Brian Schottenheimer receiver!
​

 

[blue4]

Why did everyone overlook Ethan Westbrooks?
By Ryan Van Bibber  @justRVB on Aug 18 2014

Scott Rovak-USA TODAY Sports

The Rams may have scored with UDFA pass rusher Ethan Westbrooks, but his preseason dominance begs the question why nobody bothered drafting him in May.

Lampooning the NFL Draft media industrial complex is old hat for me. After all, we've seen in the past that these things are usually written by child-fearing, sorta racist, big brother, Shield loving wannabes ... and Nolan Nawrocki, the guy who famously read too much into Cam Newton's smile. That's fine. It gave theSt. Louis Rams a steal on Janoris Jenkins in the 2012 Draft and again with UDFA Ethan Westbrooks, who's tearing up the field in camp and the preseason this year.

So how did a player as talented as Westbrooks not get drafted? HE'S GOT TATTOOS!

Well, there's that, and the fact that he played at a small school (West Texas A&M) and some scouts questioned his motor from snap to snap.

BUT THOSE TATTOOS.

Here's the scouting report from Nawrocki himself. Among the highlights:

Talented, enigmatic Division II edge rusher who marches to the beat of his own drum, but has intriguing, raw, natural ability to harass quarterbacks. Wild-card prospect with diamond-in-the-rough characteristics if a defensive line coach is able to refine the technical aspects of his game and stoke his fire.

Okay, pretty tame, even sensible by Nawrocki standards. Rob Rang at CBS was having none of that.

Sports a heavily tattooed frame (including on his face) and that some will take as a character red-flag.



Also sporting a "heavily tattooed frame" are major character risks like Chris Long and James Laurinaitis. Beloved St. Louis sports hero Yadier Molina, the Cardinals catcher, has a neck tattoo.

You might recall Rang, he was the one who dropped Michael Sam from the 90th ranked player to the 160th ranked player within 12 hours of Sam revealing to the world that he was gay. He bumped Sam back up to No. 110 on his list later that day, because obviously draft rankings are a very serious thing that folks don't take lightly.

Odd that Sam and Westbrooks are competing against each other for a roster spot with the Rams, no?

Westbrooks' has shown that raw talent in the preseason and camp so far, and the Rams defensive line might be better off for it, face tattoo and all.

I'll have to say, after watching his Combine workout again, he might have a shot to make the roster at wide receiver. Look ...



Very effective on the short pass, the perfect Brian Schottenheimer receiver!
​

He just seems to have a greater upside to me. My very unscientific, non-coach opinion is that he moves better. To me, out of all the low round or UDFA guys in camp he's the one who maybe, could be a every down starter one day. Maybe that's unlikely, but I could see him filling the Sims or Hayes role someday. However, with the loss of Pead, this whole S vs W thread may not mean much anymore. Why not keep both? I can't really think of any other bubble guys on the team I'm excited about.

 

[junkman]

Westbrooks has been AWESOME this pre-season, just jumping off the screen for the Rams play after play in my eyes and the commentator's eyes (Holt / Faulk). He's playing well against the run, bulling into the backfield, shedding his blocks and dragging down ball carriers. He's showing explosion in passing situations, getting into the QBs face consistently from 3 different spots (LDE, RDE, and lined up over B gap as DT), getting clean (not late) QB hits, hurries and sacks. If Westbrooks keeps it up, he MUST make this team.

Westbrooks has also caught the attention of our frenemies at PFF, with a +7.8 rating on only 73 snaps, with equally good scores against the run and pass. Westbrooks score is 2nd only to Gerald McCoy for any defensive player this preseason. Westbooks does benefit in the PFF rankings because of strength of competition, playing against 2nd/3rd stringers, so this should be taken with a grain of salt. That said, he is dominating his competition.

As a comparison point, Michael Sam has a slightly better than average +1.0 grade on PFF, which on any normal team would be great. But on the Rams with all the DL depth, things just got even more difficult for Sam. Both in my eyes and in PFF scoring, Sam is lagging waaay behind Westbrooks, but he does seem to have more to offer than Sammy Brown, which is who I thought was Sam's main competition coming in.

 

[junkman]

I can't really think of any other bubble guys on the team I'm excited about.

Bayer (over Justice Cunningham) and Roberson (over Woodard) are my other bubble guys.

I'm pretty high on Westbrooks, tho.

 

[badnews]

If I had to pick one today, Westbrooks gets that spot.
But I would love to keep Sam too.
I just dont see how...

 

[Athos]

I want Sam. But I'm a Mizzou honk.

But also don't see a reason for a 3rd string DE that can't play special teams.