Wagoner’s Rams Buzz: Ray Ray To Have Expanded Role

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leoram

LA/St Louis/LA fan
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May 25, 2013
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1,291
I will be the sole naysayer on this one. I am not holding my breath. Not a fan of the "look at me" Ray Ray Armstrong. Too undisciplined to be counted on.

Considering the Base 4-3 is on the field less than 40% of the time, if we are really talking about "splitting" reps with Dunbar, exactly what does that mean in actual snap count?

Unless Armstrong brings more to the table than Joyner in the Nickel Blitz packages, IMO, he sees 3-4 snaps tops a game on defense.

I recall Hammer being even less positive than you last offseason about Ray so I expected little of him though several others seemed more attracted to the attitudinal hype so common in today's sports world popularity. Hammer was similarly unimpressed with Stacy, Bailey, and Mathieu of the Cards. The two of you have spent a few camps together and have interesting views that differ sometimes. Where Hammer focuses on athletic potential and college productivity, you seem to be more of a guy who pays attention to whether a guy fulfills the role of his designed assignments.

Given this, it doesn't surprise me you don't look for Armstrong to see much field time. To me, it all depends on how he responds to Gregg Williams' leadership. If he adapts to the expected assignment accountability, I believe he has the athleticism, skills, and attitude Williams promotes.

Another factor I believe favors Ray is based on Williams' use of Dunbar in New Orleans and that frankly is my greatest concern about our defense in general. Dunbar actually improved his first year here because the more conservative approach had him out of position less frequently. This was my frustration with Jim Haslett. Because Ray is more explosive and better in coverage than Dunbar, he will flash big plays quite a bit but just as frequently blow assignments that cost big gains. I suspect Gregg will use him more on second and long or third and short when we see two tight end packages. For this reason, I see something closer to 10-15 snaps a game. It's not ideal but a product of us not getting CJ Mosley to fill that role and to back up JLau.
 

69superbowl

Rookie
Joined
Jan 6, 2012
Messages
234
My anticipation of Armstrong's '14 season is based on the glimmer of positive aggressiveness he showed, and that he can obviously grow his body from the safety he was to the WLB (maybe inside in a 3-4 scheme?) he can be. It's always a crapshoot as to how much bigger a college kid can get in the NFL. He seems to have the frame to be LB big and remain quick. Interesting player. Hope he has the cabeza for it.
 

CoachO

Hall of Fame
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Jan 11, 2013
Messages
3,392
I recall Hammer being even less positive than you last offseason about Ray so I expected little of him though several others seemed more attracted to the attitudinal hype so common in today's sports world popularity. Hammer was similarly unimpressed with Stacy, Bailey, and Mathieu of the Cards. The two of you have spent a few camps together and have interesting views that differ sometimes. Where Hammer focuses on athletic potential and college productivity, you seem to be more of a guy who pays attention to whether a guy fulfills the role of his designed assignments.

Given this, it doesn't surprise me you don't look for Armstrong to see much field time. To me, it all depends on how he responds to Gregg Williams' leadership. If he adapts to the expected assignment accountability, I believe he has the athleticism, skills, and attitude Williams promotes.

Another factor I believe favors Ray is based on Williams' use of Dunbar in New Orleans and that frankly is my greatest concern about our defense in general. Dunbar actually improved his first year here because the more conservative approach had him out of position less frequently. This was my frustration with Jim Haslett. Because Ray is more explosive and better in coverage than Dunbar, he will flash big plays quite a bit but just as frequently blow assignments that cost big gains. I suspect Gregg will use him more on second and long or third and short when we see two tight end packages. For this reason, I see something closer to 10-15 snaps a game. It's not ideal but a product of us not getting CJ Mosley to fill that role and to back up JLau.

Hammer and I didn't always agree, and that was a good thing IMO. He invests so much of his time into the draft evaluations, and sometimes, it seems he backs himself into a corner with his opinions on players, and is very unlikely to back off from those.

I do tend to focus on how a player fits, and how they intend on using said player. I try to understand the "why" they are doing something, not that I always agree with it.

As far as Armstrong, my biggest issue is he just hasn't shown to be disciplined enough, in either his assignment responsibility, or in the ability to just "play the game". I am the first to admit, much of my issue is "style over substance" and that is MY issue. But unless and until he demonstrates the ability to just do his job, and let the play come to him, I feel he will go out of his way to try to "make a play" (go for the kill shot), which usually results in being out of position.

As far as defensive snaps, I just don't see there being as many as you (or most on here) seem to think. Given the overall usage of the Base 4-3, compared to the number of snaps in the "sub packages", I don't see it approaching the 10-15 range that you do.

Where I do see him having a role, is in the "30 Nickel" sub package, that they like to use in 3rd and short situations. They go to a Nickel (5 DBs) but take out one of the D-Linemen, and still have 3 LBs on the field. How much they utilize this package will change from game to game. But that is the one situation i can see him being used in.

The other thing that gets overlooked constantly, they did indeed sign a couple of FA LBs in the off season. No one mentions this. They are both unknown commodities, but they are part of the mix. McSurdy was added to the PS last year, and Sabino is a FA signed and released by the Giants last year from Ohio State. Sammy Brown is still "around" and has been used more as an OLB this year, with the signing of Westbrooks and Sam at DE.

Regardless, it will be just one more interesting thing to keep an eye on when training camp get underway.
 
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Elmgrovegnome

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Jan 23, 2013
Messages
21,923
Frankly, until he plays a little smarter I don't see what the hurry is to get him on the field. Especially in place of proven performers like Dunbar and JL.


Exactly. He has to prove himself before putting him in the lineup IMO. His stupid penalties wont play well with Williams anyway. So, he better be ready to play like a pro if he wants to see the field.
 

Elmgrovegnome

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Hammer and I didn't always agree, and that was a good thing IMO. He invests so much of his time into the draft evaluations, and sometimes, it seems he backs himself into a corner with his opinions on players, and is very unlikely to back off from those.

I do tend to focus on how a player fits, and how they intend on using said player. I try to understand the "why" they are doing something, not that I always agree with it.

As far as Armstrong, my biggest issue is he just hasn't shown to be disciplined enough, in either his assignment responsibility, or in the ability to just "play the game". I am the first to admit, much of my issue is "style over substance" and that is MY issue. But unless and until he demonstrates the ability to just do his job, and let the play come to him, I feel he will go out of his way to try to "make a play" (go for the kill shot), which usually results in being out of position.

As far as defensive snaps, I just don't see there being as many as you (or most on here) seem to think. Given the overall usage of the Base 4-3, compared to the number of snaps in the "sub packages", I don't see it approaching the 10-15 range that you do.

Where I do see him having a role, is in the "30 Nickel" sub package, that they like to use in 3rd and short situations. They go to a Nickel (5 DBs) but take out one of the D-Linemen, and still have 3 LBs on the field. How much they utilize this package will change from game to game. But that is the one situation i can see him being used in.

The other thing that gets overlooked constantly, they did indeed sign a couple of FA LBs in the off season. No one mentions this. They are both unknown commodities, but they are part of the mix. McSurdy was added to the PS last year, and Sabino is a FA signed and released by the Giants last year from Ohio State. Sammy Brown is still "around" and has been used more as an OLB this year, with the signing of Westbrooks and Sam at DE.

Regardless, it will be just one more interesting thing to keep an eye on when training camp get underway.

Good evaluation of the situation (and of Hammers tendencies). They also still have Steward don't they? I thought Bates looked like a better Linebacker than Armstrong did btw. Both made their share of dumb mistakes. Williams system seems to require a bit of discipline and a lot of acumen to play it affectively. I think the best guys will surface by the start of the season.
 

fancents86

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Sep 20, 2013
Messages
997
With all do respect. This is exactly what's wrong with the idea of him playing. And IMO, it's the only reason Armstrong had taken in what I consider to be near "cult hero" status.

I'd rather he just do his job and make the plays he needs to make. And actually act like he has done it before. And more importantly act like he might actually do it again.
I guess a player can't play ruff and do his job? Maybe the Rams should have never played Deacon, or the Ravens played Lewis?
 
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CoachO

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I guess a player can't play ruff and do his job? Maybe the Rams should have never played Decon, or the Ravens played Lewis?

If that is what you took from what I wrote, then you missed the point. It has nothing to do with being physical, its all about going out of his way to make the big hit, which puts him out of position much more than not. And its this go for the "look at me" stuff that has made fans like you, apparently, think this guy is a whole lot better than he is. Which is my point.

And for the record, if you want to debate the post, that's fine, but you don't have to be a smartass about it!
 

12intheBox

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Wil Fay
As for snaps - I'm thinking this is the year that JL55 comes off the field from time to time - there should be plenty of snaps to go around.
 

fancents86

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Not looking to be a smart ass. I made a very vague statement and you took it above and beyond what I meant. Do I want to see Ray Ray play aggressive? Yes. At the expense of the team? No.
 

CoachO

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Not looking to be a smart ass. I made a very vague statement and you took it above and beyond what I meant. Do I want to see Ray Ray play aggressive? Yes. At the expense of the team? No.
Vague statement saying they shouldn't have played DEACON (not Decon)? oh ok!
 

fancents86

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My original statement is the one I was referring to as vague. And thanks for correcting me on the spelling after I already fixed the typo.
 

Boffo97

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Dave
His role will expand so much that he'll have to become Ray Ray Ray to handle it all.
 

blue4

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As for snaps - I'm thinking this is the year that JL55 comes off the field from time to time - there should be plenty of snaps to go around.

I doubt JL comes off the field unless he's tired and takes himself out. He's simply to good at pass coverage and play recognition. I doubt Ogletree comes off the field much either. I think the best Ray Ray can hope for is to split time with Dunbar, a solid, aggresive player who Williams is already familiar with.

To me Ray Ray right now is just potential talent. It would be different if we were talking about replacing bad LBs, but we're talking about cutting into good players snaps so we can see if another player might cut it. Doesn't seem like a win to me.
 

Dodgersrf

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Scott
Hammer and I didn't always agree, and that was a good thing IMO. He invests so much of his time into the draft evaluations, and sometimes, it seems he backs himself into a corner with his opinions on players, and is very unlikely to back off from those.

I do tend to focus on how a player fits, and how they intend on using said player. I try to understand the "why" they are doing something, not that I always agree with it.

As far as Armstrong, my biggest issue is he just hasn't shown to be disciplined enough, in either his assignment responsibility, or in the ability to just "play the game". I am the first to admit, much of my issue is "style over substance" and that is MY issue. But unless and until he demonstrates the ability to just do his job, and let the play come to him, I feel he will go out of his way to try to "make a play" (go for the kill shot), which usually results in being out of position.

As far as defensive snaps, I just don't see there being as many as you (or most on here) seem to think. Given the overall usage of the Base 4-3, compared to the number of snaps in the "sub packages", I don't see it approaching the 10-15 range that you do.

Where I do see him having a role, is in the "30 Nickel" sub package, that they like to use in 3rd and short situations. They go to a Nickel (5 DBs) but take out one of the D-Linemen, and still have 3 LBs on the field. How much they utilize this package will change from game to game. But that is the one situation i can see him being used in.

The other thing that gets overlooked constantly, they did indeed sign a couple of FA LBs in the off season. No one mentions this. They are both unknown commodities, but they are part of the mix. McSurdy was added to the PS last year, and Sabino is a FA signed and released by the Giants last year from Ohio State. Sammy Brown is still "around" and has been used more as an OLB this year, with the signing of Westbrooks and Sam at DE.

Regardless, it will be just one more interesting thing to keep an eye on when training camp get underway.
I would love to sit between you and hammer at training camp.
I bet there is great conversation.
 

Zaphod

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I doubt JL comes off the field unless he's tired and takes himself out. He's simply to good at pass coverage and play recognition. I doubt Ogletree comes off the field much either. I think the best Ray Ray can hope for is to split time with Dunbar, a solid, aggresive player who Williams is already familiar with.

To me Ray Ray right now is just potential talent. It would be different if we were talking about replacing bad LBs, but we're talking about cutting into good players snaps so we can see if another player might cut it. Doesn't seem like a win to me.
Right.

He's not taking Ogletree's spot at WLB and he sure isn't replacing Laurinaitis at MLB, so that leaves him to compete with Dunbar at SLB, who is already familiar with Williams' scheme.

To actually compete with Dunbar, he has to shed blocks like Dunbar, he has to be in position and he has to flat out stop the dumb penalties. Look at me first gotta go.

Runs faster, bigger stronger doesn't mean anything if he can't play better.

If he can, well more power to him. But please, if you want someone to take time away from Laurinaitus you have to go to the draft.
 

LACHAMP46

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I doubt JL comes off the field unless he's tired and takes himself out. He's simply to good at pass coverage and play recognition. I doubt Ogletree comes off the field much either. I think the best Ray Ray can hope for is to split time with Dunbar, a solid, aggressive player who Williams is already familiar with.

To me Ray Ray right now is just potential talent. It would be different if we were talking about replacing bad LBs, but we're talking about cutting into good players snaps so we can see if another player might cut it. Doesn't seem like a win to me.


Just curious, what about Dunbar's play last year, leads you to believe he's a "good" LB & not a "bad" one? Why does every one seem to harp on Ray Ray's penalties on ST? I would imagine, just from the eye test, he had a lot of blocking penalties. Another thing, it would appear that Ogletree would move to more of a strong-side backer role & Ray Ray the weak-side, but they could be interchangeable, much like the safeties...

My main point in all of my posts on this topic, I would think Williams is in revenge/payback mode, he'll want his best 11 on the field. Play-makers...He can reign in Ray Ray's antics, but let him play with emotion/passion that this defense has lacked for almost 11 or 12 years, it would truly vault us into playoff contention....just some thoughts
 

RamsAndEwe

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Apr 2, 2014
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Ray Ray is young and fast, whilst Dunbar is experienced and yet alas I fret Polonius said it best...

Dunbar hath, my lord, wrung from me my slow leave
By laborsome petition, and at last
Upon his speed Dunbar sealed the running back gap by hard consent!
But I do beseech you, let young Ray Ray
Wrap round ye tight ends the taints of liberty,
A savageness in unreclaimed blood,
Of tyranny assault and cling
to the Goliath's of this league
Like a muddy bloody sucking leech
tattooing and tweaking Kaepernick's nose
Betwixt Armstronging and blitzing
that Seahawk Wilson bitch buried on a beach!
 
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Boffo97

Still legal in 17 states!
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Feb 10, 2014
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5,278
Name
Dave
Ray Ray is young and fast, whilst Dunbar is experienced and yet alas I fret Polonius said it best...

Dunbar hath, my lord, wrung from me my slow leave
By laborsome petition, and at last
Upon his speed Dunbar sealed the running back gap by hard consent!
But I do beseech you, let young Ray Ray
Wrap round ye tight ends the taints of liberty,
A savageness in unreclaimed blood,
Of tyranny assault and cling
to the Goliath's of this league
Like a muddy bloody sucking leech
tattooing and tweaking Kaepernick's nose
Betwixt Armstronging and blitzing
that bitch Wilson- Seahawk buried on a beach!
After a really bad post, sometimes the comment will be made "Well, I'll never get those brain cells back."

...I feel like I got some brain cells back after reading that.