Two seasons of Tavon Austin

[LesBaker]

How many punt returns touchdowns were called back.. how many receiving touchdowns were called back. All of that will raise his average and make his numbers better despite an inept play caller that never had someone with his talents and doesn't use him right. So to say Austin hasn't lived up to expectations you have to but most of that on the playcaller. You would think that after the Colts game Schotty would know how to use him but the use of Austin or lack of is one of the main reasons I don't like Schotty. I don't see how Schotty can get a pass and not Austin or any of the receivers. The same excuses people can use for Schotty so can every other skill position player

Someone should look into this and get a real number on big plays/returns and TD's that have been negated due to penalties. I'd define big play/return as anything 20 yards or over.

Maybe if we collectively put our heads together we can recall all of them from memory.........nah who the fuck am I kidding we need someone to do the film work.

 

[Angry Ram]

I didn't see his post as scapegoating so much as offering well thought-out and constructive criticisms of Schotty's offense. And I think the OC is at least part of the issue with Tavon, because I have little doubt that a guy like Mike Martz, Chip Kelly, Norv Turner, etc. would have as much trouble finding ways to deploy him effectively.

After every loss, it's always Schotty. There's other issues that are more pressing than the OC. Mostly on the personnel side.

Again, IDK what people want when they clamor for a better OC. An efficient team is a consistent team.

8 years strong fans have been blaming the OC. It's more than past time to move on from that mentality.

 

[thirteen28]

After every loss, it's always Schotty. There's other issues that are more pressing than the OC. Mostly on the personnel side.

Again, IDK what people want when they clamor for a better OC. An efficient team is a consistent team.

8 years strong fans have been blaming the OC. It's more than past time to move on from that mentality.

He's not above criticism.

If you're happy with Schotty as is and don't believe there are any areas where he needs improvement, more power to you. Many of us will continue to respectfully disagree with that line of thinking.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

We're gonna get about a couple hundred more of these player evaluation threads popping up from here on out, so i'll get mine out of the way now.

T.Austin. Color me Not impressed.
Draft day first round trade up. I was all for the pick BTW. I felt it was the right move. I was excited to add the speed and slippery, athletic playmaker.
I expected his natural ability to allow him to make more of an impact even as he was developing and finding his way through the tough transition to the NFL as a WR. One could take the angle of having no legit QB throwing to him or point to Shotty's offense i suppose, but i'm not really buying it at this point. I see that fact being more relevant in terms of the production of other guys more so than Tavon. Britt, Quick, Bailey, Cook etc...

Austin's numbers since drafted two years ago.

2013(13 games)
40 rec 418 yds
10.5 avg/rec
4 TD's

9 rush 151 yds
16.8/carry
1 TD

33 punt ret
280 yds
8.5 avg
1 TD


2014(15 games)
31 rec 242 yds
7.8 avg/rec
0 TD's

36 rush 224 yds
6.2/carry
2 TD's

35 punt ret
391 yds
11.2 avg
1 TD

CAREER
71 rec 660 yds
9.3 avg/rec
4 TD's

45 rush 375 yds
8.3 avg/carry
3 TD's

2 punt ret TD's

That's 9 all purpose TD's in two seasons. We'll get a better gauge next season with(hopefully) a legit QB and a full three seasons....but IMO we drafted another gadget player who's best role is as a punt returner. Hope i'm wrong, but this looks like a swing and a missed pick to me.

Your thoughts?

I didn't want Tavon before the draft and was not happy with the pick during the draft. I never saw an NFL great much less good player. That wild athleticism plays big in college but is neutralized in the NFL. The guy was raw gifts and that was it.

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

After every loss, it's always Schotty. There's other issues that are more pressing than the OC. Mostly on the personnel side.

Again, IDK what people want when they clamor for a better OC. An efficient team is a consistent team.

8 years strong fans have been blaming the OC. It's more than past time to move on from that mentality.

I totally disagree and to point out why I look at Bruce Arians and Mike Martz. Arians used his offensive mind to make the Colts a playoff contender and then he went to Arizona and did the same thing with that offense. Martz turned journeymen QBs and WRs into all stars. Are there many of those guys available? No, but if your not looking for that then you need to be. Schott has been okay/bad. It is time for a fresh mind.

 

[Mackeyser]

After every loss, it's always Schotty. There's other issues that are more pressing than the OC. Mostly on the personnel side.

Again, IDK what people want when they clamor for a better OC. An efficient team is a consistent team.

8 years strong fans have been blaming the OC. It's more than past time to move on from that mentality.

Perhaps it's because knowledgeable fans aren't just kneejerking about the scoreboard, but are looking beyond that into the details.

This draft saw FOUR rookie Wide Receivers contribute significantly to their teams. That would NEVER happen in a Schotty offense. Just...NEVER... because rather than adjust to the talent, Schotty with minor variations runs *his* offense.

Thus, when receivers GET it and he has a QB and an OL and a RB...then his offense works. However, if any of that breaks... it all falls apart and DCs KNOW THAT. And as a fan, that's frustrating.

His offense isn't even like Martz's offense that can score a ton, but is fragile as a timing offense. No... it's worse because as an OFFENSE (and I'd say this to any OC trying to run this offense), it's a grinding, ball control offense that's JUST AS FRAGILE.

It's ridiculous. Part of the attraction of grinding, ball control offenses are that they aren't fragile. So, Schotty's offense is the worst of both worlds in that it is low scoring AND fragile. It only becomes a middling offense when it has the talent of a top tier offense. Which, on its face is ridiculous. Why design an NFL offense that gets middling results with top shelf talent AND disintegrates if only one piece breaks? Worse, this same offense's production drops precipitously when the talent level drops at any key position even a little bit.

So, is this about Schotty as a person? Not really. It's about the offense he runs. Okay....some of it is Schotty...

1) It doesn't allow rookies to contribute especially WRs. Odell Beckham (love him or hate him, his talent is undeniable) wouldn't have done lick in this offense and that's just insane. While this meshes with Fisher's attitudes about rookies meshing with the system versus the system adapting to personnel, the NFL has long since evolved beyond that.

2) The system is brittle. Any personnel change drastically and negatively affects the offensive output.

3) The playcalling is just bad. When establishing the run, even when committing to establishing the interior run, there are LOTS of choices to doing that... constantly running into the A or B gap on the right side when we have Wells and Joseph over there is just really... bad. How many stuffs and TFL does it take (and thereby building up the Defense's confidence) in order to run OTHER interior run plays? There are runs to the left, Counter-tre's, draws... all sorts of options that take into account the issues that Wells and Joseph present. But Schotty calls run plays to the right like he's got All-pro C and ROG who will win that battle every time.

I'm not saying that Schotty's system never works. It does. But it requires everything to line up.

And I'm sorry... I don't want the Moon to be in the Seventh House and Jupiter to align with Mars before we have an offense that can deal with injuries...ya know...in the NFL....where injuries happen to every team.

 

[Boffo97]

He's not above criticism.

If you're happy with Schotty as is and don't believe there are any areas where he needs improvement, more power to you. Many of us will continue to respectfully disagree with that line of thinking.

And if absolutely anyone thought the italicized bit, that would be a good argument. As is, it's not.

There's room between thinking he's absolutely perfect and being as down on him and blaming him for everything as some people here are. I'm still betting Fisher falls into that category too.

 

[thirteen28]

And if absolutely anyone thought the italicized bit, that would be a good argument. As is, it's not.

There's room between thinking he's absolutely perfect and being as down on him and blaming him for everything as some people here are. I'm still betting Fisher falls into that category too.

True, but the post I referred to didn't blame him for everything - it blamed him for things that are directly under his control, i.e. the design of the offense.

So to borrow on what you did, there is room between blaming him for everything and legitimately and constructively criticizing him for his weaknesses. A lot of people here seem to be very sensitive to criticism of Schotty, even when it's well thought-out, well argued, constructive criticism that goes way beyond the simple "Schotty sucks" of which the critics are accused.

 

[Mackeyser]

I totally disagree and to point out why I look at Bruce Arians and Mike Martz. Arians used his offensive mind to make the Colts a playoff contender and then he went to Arizona and did the same thing with that offense. Martz turned journeymen QBs and WRs into all stars. Are there many of those guys available? No, but if your not looking for that then you need to be. Schott has been okay/bad. It is time for a fresh mind.

Bruce Arians is a perfect example. Look at all the injuries they had on O and D. Folks wrote them off at the beginning of the season because they'd lost Darnell Dockett and Tyrann Mathieu on D and certain guys on O...

And as the season went on, guys kept dropping and they kept winning more than losing, sometimes with 3rd string guys.

They play to WIN the game...

When we snap the ball or line up to defend... sometimes as I watch... I have no idea what our guys are doing. And that's BAD. It's one thing if it's clear what we wanted to do and just didn't get it done, but I'm just shaking my head because the logic escapes me, the math eludes me...the end goal doesn't seem to be WINNING. At least, not on that play.

With Seattle and Arizona, on every play, you can see... the emphasis is on WINNING.

That's the difference.

 

[Rmfnlt]

In addition, I also find it strange how we need to wait 3 years for any wr draft pick to show up.

I've wondered about this as well.

Quick... now Austin... I wrote about intelligence in the Jeff Gordon thread.

My theory is that Snead and Fisher drafted "athletes" in their first two years.

But guys like Quick... and Austin... and Jenkins... they just don't impress me as being smart.

And that's why it's taken so long for them to "get it" (I'm not sure Jenkins will ever get it over the long haul).

I hold out hope for Quick... not as much hope for Austin.

Anyone remember the game where he called for a fair catch, then tried to run it? C'mon man!

 

[-X-]

So to borrow on what you did, there is room between blaming him for everything and legitimately and constructively criticizing him for his weaknesses.

That's true, but who amongst us is qualified to critique a professional coordinator's weaknesses? Wouldn't you have to be a professional in the same field? I couldn't walk into a board meeting of the executives of Pepsi and tell them why their 3rd quarter earnings were lower than projected. All we can do, as fans, is pretend we know why something is happening and argue that. Not a single one of us knows what we're talking about when it comes to coordinating an NFL offense. All we can do is make our cases for why we believe something is or isn't the case.

 

[thirteen28]

I hold out hope for Quick... not as much hope for Austin.

I don't know why you are still limited to hope for Quick. In the limited time he played this year is was abundantly clear that he got it, that the light had decisively switched on for him. My hope for Quick at this point is that he makes full recovery from his injuries, because if he can look as good as he did with Austin Davis throwing most of the passes to him, I'm confident he'll look even better with a better QB behind center.

 

[-X-]

And as the season went on, guys kept dropping and they kept winning more than losing, sometimes with 3rd string guys.

Did they? Because when they lost Palmer, they went 5-5. And they were lucky to get some of those wins.
Meanwhile, we didn't even *get* Bradford, and we're expected to do as well?

 

[thirteen28]

That's true, but who amongst us is qualified to critique a professional coordinator's weaknesses? Wouldn't you have to be a professional in the same field? I couldn't walk into a board meeting of the executives of Pepsi and tell them why their 3rd quarter earnings were lower than projected. All we can do, as fans, is pretend we know why something is happening and argue that. Not a single one of us knows what we're talking about when it comes to coordinating an NFL offense. All we can do is make our cases for why we believe something is or isn't the case.

By that logic, we're not qualified to criticize virtually anybody outside of our own area of expertise. I don't buy that logic at all, no offense. People can see, and even people with more knowledge than us in a given field can make mistakes that are apparent to those of us who are not experts.

Plus, ROD has some exceptionally knowledgeable posters

 

[-X-]

By that logic, we're not qualified to criticize virtually anybody outside of our own area of expertise. I don't buy that logic at all, no offense. People can see, and even people with more knowledge than us in a given field can make mistakes that are apparent to those of us who are not experts.

Plus, ROD has some exceptionally knowledgeable posters

You've misunderstood what I said. I didn't say anyone is unqualified to criticize. You don't need any special qualifications for that. I'm saying nobody here is qualified to identify what a coordinator is doing wrong. They only see something go wrong and (understandably, but often misguidedly) point to the coordinator. And there have been MANY Professionals in the field who have said that.

Many, many Professionals.

 

[Rmfnlt]

That's true, but who amongst us is qualified to critique a professional coordinator's weaknesses? Wouldn't you have to be a professional in the same field? I couldn't walk into a board meeting of the executives of Pepsi and tell them why their 3rd quarter earnings were lower than projected. All we can do, as fans, is pretend we know why something is happening and argue that. Not a single one of us knows what we're talking about when it comes to coordinating an NFL offense. All we can do is make our cases for why we believe something is or isn't the case.

The only thing I can critique are the results.

And the results for the offense since Schottenheimer has been OC are very, very bad.

The why? As usual, probably a number of factors at play.

Regardless of how much they know (and how little we might), they can still be very bad at their jobs. Typically, that deficiency manifests itself in the results.

Back to your analogy, if I'm a stockholder of Pepsi (make that Coca-cola, since I am ), I have the right to voice my displeasure if the stock is not performing well.

But, like voicing my displeasure at Schottenheimer, it doesn't end up changing anything.

 

[Angry Ram]

He's not above criticism.

If you're happy with Schotty as is and don't believe there are any areas where he needs improvement, more power to you. Many of us will continue to respectfully disagree with that line of thinking.

Hang on there. I never said that. I said there are more pressing issues. Everyone can use improvement.

I totally disagree and to point out why I look at Bruce Arians and Mike Martz. Arians used his offensive mind to make the Colts a playoff contender and then he went to Arizona and did the same thing with that offense. Martz turned journeymen QBs and WRs into all stars. Are there many of those guys available? No, but if your not looking for that then you need to be. Schott has been okay/bad. It is time for a fresh mind.

Thanks for bringing up Bruce Arians. When he was OC for the Steelers, fans hated him for the offense. Wsnated him to run more instead of pass. But the offense still worked. People still wanted him gone. So they got their wish, and I mentioned in another thread Todd Haley. Like Bruce Arians, fans hated him. Game after game they wanted him gone. Now they have the best offense in the NFL and are in the playoffs. Suddenly no one cares about the OC.

Perhaps it's because knowledgeable fans aren't just kneejerking about the scoreboard, but are looking beyond that into the details.

This draft saw FOUR rookie Wide Receivers contribute significantly to their teams. That would NEVER happen in a Schotty offense. Just...NEVER... because rather than adjust to the talent, Schotty with minor variations runs *his* offense.

Thus, when receivers GET it and he has a QB and an OL and a RB...then his offense works. However, if any of that breaks... it all falls apart and DCs KNOW THAT. And as a fan, that's frustrating.

His offense isn't even like Martz's offense that can score a ton, but is fragile as a timing offense. No... it's worse because as an OFFENSE (and I'd say this to any OC trying to run this offense), it's a grinding, ball control offense that's JUST AS FRAGILE.

It's ridiculous. Part of the attraction of grinding, ball control offenses are that they aren't fragile. So, Schotty's offense is the worst of both worlds in that it is low scoring AND fragile. It only becomes a middling offense when it has the talent of a top tier offense. Which, on its face is ridiculous. Why design an NFL offense that gets middling results with top shelf talent AND disintegrates if only one piece breaks? Worse, this same offense's production drops precipitously when the talent level drops at any key position even a little bit.

So, is this about Schotty as a person? Not really. It's about the offense he runs. Okay....some of it is Schotty...

1) It doesn't allow rookies to contribute especially WRs. Odell Beckham (love him or hate him, his talent is undeniable) wouldn't have done lick in this offense and that's just insane. While this meshes with Fisher's attitudes about rookies meshing with the system versus the system adapting to personnel, the NFL has long since evolved beyond that.

2) The system is brittle. Any personnel change drastically and negatively affects the offensive output.

3) The playcalling is just bad. When establishing the run, even when committing to establishing the interior run, there are LOTS of choices to doing that... constantly running into the A or B gap on the right side when we have Wells and Joseph over there is just really... bad. How many stuffs and TFL does it take (and thereby building up the Defense's confidence) in order to run OTHER interior run plays? There are runs to the left, Counter-tre's, draws... all sorts of options that take into account the issues that Wells and Joseph present. But Schotty calls run plays to the right like he's got All-pro C and ROG who will win that battle every time.

I'm not saying that Schotty's system never works. It does. But it requires everything to line up.

And I'm sorry... I don't want the Moon to be in the Seventh House and Jupiter to align with Mars before we have an offense that can deal with injuries...ya know...in the NFL....where injuries happen to every team.

First, I'm just as "knowledgeable" as anyone else. Don't fuckin group me into the kneejerk types. I know my team just as much as you do.

Second, All 4 of those WRs had consistent QB play. The Rams, in 2014, didn't from the beginning. And really never had it since October 2013. That makes a huge difference.

Third, I pointed out each and every player by name their season this year. DESPITE all the problems at QB and OL. Every player except 2 had their best seasons to date, with the exception of Brian Quick who was on his way to his breakout year.

As to your 3 points, rookies do contribute. I.E. Stedman. I.E. Greg Robinson, I.E. Tre Mason. There is give and take, as players need to do their parts.

I disagree completely with your "brittle" label. Players have been coming and going since they've gotten here. They've been getting better (as evidence to what the players have done production wise).

Playcalling is what it is. It's a chess game. For 8 years the playcalling has been "bad." Except in wins, when no one seemingly cares about it. We don't know what is being called, and what the player actually does. I.E., when a QB forces the ball instead of checking it down, throwing it away, etc. That's just one example. Any number of things can happen.

 

[-X-]

The only thing I can critique are the results.

And the results for the offense since Schottenheimer has been OC are very, very bad.

The why? As usual, probably a number of factors at play.

Regardless of how much they know (and how little we might), they can still be very bad at their jobs. Typically, that deficiency manifests itself in the results.

Back to your analogy, if I'm a stockholder of Pepsi (make that Coca-cola, since I am ), I have the right to voice my displeasure if the stock is not performing well.

But, like voicing my displeasure at Schottenheimer, it doesn't end up changing anything.

Still not saying you don't have the right to criticize. So let's reach an accord on that. Everyone can criticize what they believe is a problem. That's not in question.

Criticizing the results is fair too; but me, personally, I don't think I'm qualified to drill it down to one area or one person. The results for the offense have been poor for 21 out of the last 25 years. That's not a Schotty problem. Even with Martz in 2002, the Rams were 23rd in the NFL in scoring on offense. Why? It wasn't a coordinator problem. If you can't remember why, you can certainly find out with a little bit of research. And before anyone takes that point as a comparison between Schotty and Martz, just slow your roll. It's a comparison of something else entirely.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Still not saying you don't have the right to criticize. So let's reach an accord on that. Everyone can criticize what they believe is a problem. That's not in question.

Criticizing the results is fair too; but me, personally, I don't think I'm qualified to drill it down to one area or one person. The results for the offense have been poor for 21 out of the last 25 years. That's not a Schotty problem. Even with Martz in 2002, the Rams were 23rd in the NFL in scoring on offense. Why? It wasn't a coordinator problem. If you can't remember why, you can certainly find out with a little bit of research. And before anyone takes that point as a comparison between Schotty and Martz, just slow your roll. It's a comparison of something else entirely.

I'll guess Martz's struggles had to do with injuries?

Clearly, it was not his play calling. Surely, it was not his inability to create mismatches.

What was it a comparison of?

 

[-X-]

I'll guess Martz's struggles had to do with injuries?

Clearly, it was not his play calling. Surely, it was not his inability to create mismatches.

What was it a comparison of?

Yeah. Injuries. Warner's hand wasn't right, Faulk missed 6 games, Pace missed 6, Nutten missed 5, they lost London Fletcher, and all 3 linebackers missed time. The team as a whole only won 8 games and ranked near the bottom on both offense and defense. Who's the scapegoat there? Martz? Lovie Smith? Charlie Armey? Or, like in a lot of cases, injuries and turnover at key spots kept them from clicking on all cylinders?