The singular moment that shipwrecked the Fisher/Snead regime

[Irish]

My gut agrees with you, but it's interesting to look at the OLs in recent drafts, here's the possible Pro Bowlers we could have had:

2010- Pouncey instead of Quinn
2011- Kelce (6th round)
2012- none
2013- K.Long instead of Tavon, T.Frederick instead of Ogletree
2014- Z.Martin instead of Grob or Donald

Not sure which of those I would have done. It's kind of been a weird deal for this franchise, when we needed a #1 QB and got the #1 pick, we got the Bradford luck. When we needed franchise WRs to go with him, there was Alshon Jeffery and nothing else in that draft class. We needed to draft tons of quality OL but they just haven't existed in the draft for several years now. There's been many articles written on the woeful state of the OL in the NFL, with factoids like:

"from 2012-2014, there were 18 offensive linemen taken in the first round, including eight in the top 10 of those drafts. None of those players taken in the top 10 has been to a Pro Bowl, and only three of the 18 have played in one. Moreover, many of those top-10 tackles have struggled, including Minnesota's Matt Kalil, Kansas City's Eric Fisher and Jacksonville's Luke Joeckel. It used to be a top-10 tackle was a pretty sure thing. Not anymore.

It's not like teams can just replace a starter with a backup. They're even worse. 'The biggest drop-off of all position, maybe in all of sports, between starter and backup is at offensive line' ... " http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer...e-quality-of-o-line-play-in-the-nfl-is-putrid​

"'I've been harping on that for two years," said Matt Williamson, who scouts the NFL for ESPN. "I don't think the average fan realizes what an O-line shortage there is now. There are very few teams with lines that have had continuity, and there's certainly less Hall of Fame-level guys playing right now. You don't look around and see many of the Jonathan Ogden, Orlando Pace and Walter Jones types anymore." http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/181904/nfls-o-line-epidemic-threatens-its-qb-star-system​

I believe in holding people accountable so I'm quick to blame the regime for the state of the OL, but there's a lot of circumstances involved here in unearthing quality OL play. Honestly, I don't know why a team like Pittsburgh can grab Villanueva off the scrap heap because of his size and convert him to a useful LT while the Rams can't get a #2 pick to play even to the level of "not suck". And the Rams even tried to play the size game by flirting with that 400 lb. dude, I forget his name now. The more you look, the more you see the Rams desperately trying things to get quality OL that just don't pan out (see the C "open competition" etc.). So the try was there, I just can't decide if the fail was bad regime or bad luck.

Given this OL backdrop, I don't think I can just flat-out blame the Rams for "not drafting good OL". They just rarely existed, and I can't "blame" a regime for not being perfect in the draft that's a crapshoot. Can I blame someone for not succeeding on a 16.7% chance on drafting a decent OL in the first round?

The other solution when you can't get talent is to at least create an OL that jells as a unit, and maybe some teams are luckily able to avoid injury and at least get some coherency in their OL. Injuries decimated the Rams chances of doing this of course, too.

Still, many of the Rams OL choices were just bad and illogical along the way. Investing in frail old vets, flip-flopping positions, keeping useless chumps like Wells around for way too long, etc. So I still find myself quick to blame, I hate excuses. But I can't ignore them either.

Why do they need to be Probowlers? Not saying I disagree with your premise, but no offensive line is made of up 5 probowlers. We just need serviceable talent at this point.

If the Rams had even the 15th ranked offensive line in the league, they would be a playoff team. They could run the ball with their all world RB, set up a functioning play action attack, and give whatever rag arm QB you want the time for WRs to get open on routes.

Honestly, when was the last time you saw a Rams QB complete a pass to a WR on a broken play? It doesn't happen because they are on their ass before the WRs have a chance to come back to the football, which in this incarnation of the NFL is practically a part of every successful offense.

 

[Fatbot]

Why do they need to be Probowlers? .

Agreed, using the popularity contest of the Pro Bowl is lazy, but it is the simplest way to point out the lack of talent that was available to draft. I also agree with the value of what an effective OL gives, but the focus of blame has to be on what the Rams could have done different along the way to get to the point of having an effective OL now. Either you have great talent, or a great unit, or ideally both. The talent wasn't out there to easily obtain and injuries wrecked the chances of a cohesive unit, so not sure how far to assign blame versus just bitch and moan about the football gods hating the Rams.

 

[den-the-coach]

It was last year 2014 with Bradford coming off an injury they had an golden opportunity to draft a young quarterback. Sitting there in round two was Jimmy Garoppolo. Garoppolo was right in Fisher & Snead's back yard at Eastern Illinois and being that there plan was to sign Shaun Hill for insurance adding Garoppolo would ensure the Rams had a young up and coming QB as insurance as well.

Fisher who I hold more responsible for this in a year where Corner back was very deep, traded up in round two to draft LaMarcus Joyner a tweener and Fisher did this because he felt the Titans wanted Joyner. Fisher could have stayed where he was without giving up draft choices selected Garoppolo and showcasing it was a deep year for corners was underscored by the selection for E.J. Gaines in round six and adding Marcus Roberson as a UDRFA.

If the Rams had drafted Garoppolo things would be so much different IMO and this regime blew it in 2014 banking on a healthy Bradford after he had missed a year. Everyone felt strongly that the Rams should of added a QB early and instead drafted Garrett Gilbert in the sixth. Again I don't know how they could miss on Garoppolo who was right in their back yard and is now the heir apparent to Tom Brady...Egad!

 

[Rmfnlt]

Fisher and Snead have bungled the QB position since they've been here.

* Stuck with Bradford too long.
* Mishandled the Hill/Davis mess last year
Hill will immediately be reinstated as starter as soon as he is recovered... that is, unless Davis is doing well.
Davis will be our starting QB for the remainder of the season... that is, until he isn't.
We all remember "the wink".

I never liked the man, nor the hire... but when he pulled that "wink", I was all out on him. Such an unprofessional thing to do... playing games with a guys playing time.

And, of course, signing Foles to an extension without ever having played a snap in this offense.

No... to me, they've managed to mishandle that position from day one.

 

[Rmfnlt]

Still, many of the Rams OL choices were just bad and illogical along the way. Investing in frail old vets, flip-flopping positions, keeping useless chumps like Wells around for way too long, etc. So I still find myself quick to blame, I hate excuses. But I can't ignore them either.

Yeah, add this to the mismanagement of the QB position.

 

[Irish]

Agreed, using the popularity contest of the Pro Bowl is lazy, but it is the simplest way to point out the lack of talent that was available to draft. I also agree with the value of what an effective OL gives, but the focus of blame has to be on what the Rams could have done different along the way to get to the point of having an effective OL now. Either you have great talent, or a great unit, or ideally both. The talent wasn't out there to easily obtain and injuries wrecked the chances of a cohesive unit, so not sure how far to assign blame versus just bitch and moan about the football gods hating the Rams.

Injuries speak to a lack of meaningful depth. Lots of teams deal with substantial injuries, the difference between the good organizations and the bad organizations is the good organizations draft a replacement before a replacement is needed (especially in the free agency era) and are able to coach up the unit to be prepared when their number is called. The Fisher/Snead regime has proven woefully inadequate on both fronts when it comes to the O Line.

 

[Oldgeek]

Maybe spend some draft picks on the OL instead of all in on the DL. Bradford would get killed behind this OL.

 

[Force16X]

Why do they need to be Probowlers? Not saying I disagree with your premise, but no offensive line is made of up 5 probowlers. We just need serviceable talent at this point.

If the Rams had even the 15th ranked offensive line in the league, they would be a playoff team. They could run the ball with their all world RB, set up a functioning play action attack, and give whatever rag arm QB you want the time for WRs to get open on routes.

Honestly, when was the last time you saw a Rams QB complete a pass to a WR on a broken play? It doesn't happen because they are on their ass before the WRs have a chance to come back to the football, which in this incarnation of the NFL is practically a part of every successful offense.

so then the offense would be good, and the defense ranked 31st?

 

[Gandalf]

It was last year 2014 with Bradford coming off an injury they had an golden opportunity to draft a young quarterback. Sitting there in round two was Jimmy Garoppolo. Garoppolo was right in Fisher & Snead's back yard at Eastern Illinois and being that there plan was to sign Shaun Hill for insurance adding Garoppolo would ensure the Rams had a young up and coming QB as insurance as well.

Fisher who I hold more responsible for this in a year where Corner back was very deep, traded up in round two to draft LaMarcus Joyner a tweener and Fisher did this because he felt the Titans wanted Joyner. Fisher could have stayed where he was without giving up draft choices selected Garoppolo and showcasing it was a deep year for corners was underscored by the selection for E.J. Gaines in round six and adding Marcus Roberson as a UDRFA.

If the Rams had drafted Garoppolo things would be so much different IMO and this regime blew it in 2014 banking on a healthy Bradford after he had missed a year. Everyone felt strongly that the Rams should of added a QB early and instead drafted Garrett Gilbert in the sixth. Again I don't know how they could miss on Garoppolo who was right in their back yard and is now the heir apparent to Tom Brady...Egad!

IMO they wasted the 2nd round nearly every year. Instead of drafting a promising QB or OL they reached on prospects that didn't pan out or made trades that screwed the pooch.

 

[Irish]

so then the offense would be good, and the defense ranked 31st?

Where from any of my comments did you get that?

 

[VegasRam]

Can we all please just stop with the Garapolo worship. The guy's done fuck all in the NFL, and btw, the same regime drafted Mallett.

Just fucking stop.

 

[kurtfaulk]

I never liked the man, nor the hire... but when he pulled that "wink", I was all out on him. Such an unprofessional thing to do... playing games with a guys playing time.

You think both qbs weren't made aware of what was happening before that show? That show is purely for entertainment purposes. It's not there to inform anybody.

I stopped watching it 2 years ago, after his ridiculous up tempo sentiments of going 3 and out quickly. Meanwhile drich spent the whole game running into the back of olinemen for quickfast 3 and outs in the plodding offense he wanted to run.

.

 

[Debacled]

No there aren't cookie cutter works all the time offenses. But there are offenses that work better than others. I've said it before plenty and ill say it again. Ball control or offenses built on just taking time off the clock have a harder time winning games. You struggle to come back, you struggle in two minute drills. Everything always has to go right, because everything is based off the run game and play action. Carolina is doing well this year no doubt, but has it worked in previous years with the same QB? Nope. When I say modern offense, I'm not just talking about the playbook. I'm talking about the mentality. I'm talking about drafting players who are known for pass blocking as well as guys who spent their college running high school offenses and run blocking. Are we just a QB away? Maybe from .500, but I don't think we have the OL or the WRs to seriously compete in the playoffs. We can't handle blitzes, we struggle to make big catches even when the QB actually delivers the ball.

This is just the opinion I've had for a long time. All I'm saying is it COULD be the point where it went off the rails. Could you imagine Todd Gurley on a team that actually can pass the ball without spending three quarters in the run game first? A team that can run a screen pass or a slant without an act of God helping them?

When is the last time we have seen a QB in a Rams uniform deliver the ball in just about any capacity? Week 6 or 7?

The WRs are getting open. Drops plagued the offense earlier in the year, and the line had been put through a meat grinder. They are currently down Saffold, Donnal, Brown, and Havenstein has missed considerable time. I get all that, and NONE of it matters without a QB who has any kind of ability to orchestrate the offense. Is it a knock your socks off kind of offense? No, but if Foles had ANY kind of touch on the balls he is air mailing or could progress through reads in any capacity it would work. That Britt miss in the end zone Sunday is this year's problem in a nutshell. A second too late on the read and pass and a good three yards too high when that was not needed.

Is a clock grinding meat and potatoes offense that fun to watch? Definitely not, especially after having been spoiled by the GSOT days. But its been proven to be effective. SF had it working before their roster imploded. Seattle is still making it work. And as stated above, Carolina is making a fine run this year based on it.

The team has only allowed 15 sacks on the year for what its worth, and while the QBs are getting hit I believe its been a huge step forward in pass protection over the past couple of seasons. Of course that just may be due to Foles refusing to progress through his reads and his propensity to try and force balls to his first option.

 

[Merlin]

What is stunning to me is just how much luck is involved in hitting the QB lottery...

SF? Montana....Young.....Garcia....hell even Kaperpunk was near elite for 3 years...
GB? Favre....Rodgers...
IND? Manning....Luck (though he is looking dangerously close to damaged goods

Even Arizona has gotten into the act lately with Warner and Palmer reviving their careers in the desert.

Rams?
Banks.
Bulger.
Bradford.
That's just the "B" QBs...

Foles? No.
Clemmens? No.
Keenum? No.
Davis? No.

Hideous. Just hideous.

This is why the future of this game is having an offensive genius as your head coach so he cannot be poached by other teams. SF had very strong offensive brain trust and Krapperdick would not have done anything without Harbaugh's regime. GB same deal.

Rams sucked with Banks but really the problem was that the Rams staff was willing to go with him in the first place. Martz told Vermiel they needed change at QB and what change did they implement holy crap. Foles looked his best under Kelly, again an offensive guru who maximizes his talent.

Rams maximize their defensive talent but does it matter? Even if they do find a great OC this offseason under Fish guess what?? Another team will immediately poach him and it's back to Fish tryin to hit the lottery.

 

[Merlin]

It was last year 2014 with Bradford coming off an injury they had an golden opportunity to draft a young quarterback. Sitting there in round two was Jimmy Garoppolo. Garoppolo was right in Fisher & Snead's back yard at Eastern Illinois and being that there plan was to sign Shaun Hill for insurance adding Garoppolo would ensure the Rams had a young up and coming QB as insurance as well.

Fisher who I hold more responsible for this in a year where Corner back was very deep, traded up in round two to draft LaMarcus Joyner a tweener and Fisher did this because he felt the Titans wanted Joyner. Fisher could have stayed where he was without giving up draft choices selected Garoppolo and showcasing it was a deep year for corners was underscored by the selection for E.J. Gaines in round six and adding Marcus Roberson as a UDRFA.

If the Rams had drafted Garoppolo things would be so much different IMO and this regime blew it in 2014 banking on a healthy Bradford after he had missed a year. Everyone felt strongly that the Rams should of added a QB early and instead drafted Garrett Gilbert in the sixth. Again I don't know how they could miss on Garoppolo who was right in their back yard and is now the heir apparent to Tom Brady...Egad!

While the jury's still out on Garoppolo there's a lot of truth there with the CB position and the Rams coveting Joyner. He was a "need" pick that skewed the Rams board and it showed.

Fish and Snead have done a good job drafting, IMO. But yeah not filling QB means it doesn't really matter. And they didn't get it right in round 2 until this past draft.

 

[MrMotes]

This is why the future of this game is having an offensive genius as your head coach so he cannot be poached by other teams. SF had very strong offensive brain trust and Krapperdick would not have done anything without Harbaugh's regime. GB same deal.

Rams sucked with Banks but really the problem was that the Rams staff was willing to go with him in the first place. Martz told Vermiel they needed change at QB and what change did they implement holy crap. Foles looked his best under Kelly, again an offensive guru who maximizes his talent.

Rams maximize their defensive talent but does it matter? Even if they do find a great OC this offseason under Fish guess what?? Another team will immediately poach him and it's back to Fish tryin to hit the lottery.

This is exactly right.

Good QB play isn't luck nearly so much as it's good coaching...

 

[Elmgrovegnome]

My gut agrees with you, but it's interesting to look at the OLs in recent drafts, here's the possible Pro Bowlers we could have had:

2010- Pouncey instead of Quinn
2011- Kelce (6th round)
2012- none
2013- K.Long instead of Tavon, T.Frederick instead of Ogletree
2014- Z.Martin instead of Grob or Donald

Not sure which of those I would have done. It's kind of been a weird deal for this franchise, when we needed a #1 QB and got the #1 pick, we got the Bradford luck. When we needed franchise WRs to go with him, there was Alshon Jeffery and nothing else in that draft class. We needed to draft tons of quality OL but they just haven't existed in the draft for several years now. There's been many articles written on the woeful state of the OL in the NFL, with factoids like:

"from 2012-2014, there were 18 offensive linemen taken in the first round, including eight in the top 10 of those drafts. None of those players taken in the top 10 has been to a Pro Bowl, and only three of the 18 have played in one. Moreover, many of those top-10 tackles have struggled, including Minnesota's Matt Kalil, Kansas City's Eric Fisher and Jacksonville's Luke Joeckel. It used to be a top-10 tackle was a pretty sure thing. Not anymore.

It's not like teams can just replace a starter with a backup. They're even worse. 'The biggest drop-off of all position, maybe in all of sports, between starter and backup is at offensive line' ... " http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer...e-quality-of-o-line-play-in-the-nfl-is-putrid​

"'I've been harping on that for two years," said Matt Williamson, who scouts the NFL for ESPN. "I don't think the average fan realizes what an O-line shortage there is now. There are very few teams with lines that have had continuity, and there's certainly less Hall of Fame-level guys playing right now. You don't look around and see many of the Jonathan Ogden, Orlando Pace and Walter Jones types anymore." http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/181904/nfls-o-line-epidemic-threatens-its-qb-star-system​

I believe in holding people accountable so I'm quick to blame the regime for the state of the OL, but there's a lot of circumstances involved here in unearthing quality OL play. Honestly, I don't know why a team like Pittsburgh can grab Villanueva off the scrap heap because of his size and convert him to a useful LT while the Rams can't get a #2 pick to play even to the level of "not suck". And the Rams even tried to play the size game by flirting with that 400 lb. dude, I forget his name now. The more you look, the more you see the Rams desperately trying things to get quality OL that just don't pan out (see the C "open competition" etc.). So the try was there, I just can't decide if the fail was bad regime or bad luck.

Given this OL backdrop, I don't think I can just flat-out blame the Rams for "not drafting good OL". They just rarely existed, and I can't "blame" a regime for not being perfect in the draft that's a crapshoot. Can I blame someone for not succeeding on a 16.7% chance on drafting a decent OL in the first round?

The other solution when you can't get talent is to at least create an OL that jells as a unit, and maybe some teams are luckily able to avoid injury and at least get some coherency in their OL. Injuries decimated the Rams chances of doing this of course, too.

Still, many of the Rams OL choices were just bad and illogical along the way. Investing in frail old vets, flip-flopping positions, keeping useless chumps like Wells around for way too long, etc. So I still find myself quick to blame, I hate excuses. But I can't ignore them either.

There were a lot of good OLinemen in the second and third round that are quality staters on other teams. Some of them were rumored to be considered by the Rams, like Warford. One a year would have built the OLine so they didn't have to go all in on one year.

If you want the one common denominator in all of this it is Lou Boudreau. Sometimes, as coaches age their ability to motivate drops off as there ability to teach. Motivating young men to excel is a difficult thing to do and it takes a great amount of energy and strategy. Maybe Boudreau has run out of gas.

How does Pittsburgh pull Villenueva off the heap? Mike Munchak is their OLine coach. I bet he could turn Robinson around in a season and if he couldn't he'd be moving him to Guard. He really knows how to coach the offensive line.

 

[Fatbot]

There were a lot of good OLinemen in the second and third round that are quality starters on other teams. Some of them were rumored to be considered by the Rams, like Warford. One a year would have built the OLine so they didn't have to go all in on one year.

I think you are fully correct here. Here's a list of all the second & third round OLs taken from 2012-2014 and my little note of their status:

2 37 Cleveland Browns Mitchell Schwartz OT starter
2 40 Carolina Panthers Amini Silatolu G depth/IR
2 41 Buffalo Bills Cordy Glenn OT starter
2 42 Miami Dolphins Jonathan Martin OT retired
2 44 Kansas City Chiefs Jeff Allen G depth
2 55 Atlanta Falcons Peter Konz C released
2 56 Pittsburgh Steelers Mike Adams OT benched/PUP
2 60 Baltimore Ravens Kelechi Osemele G starter
3 71 Washington Redskins Josh LeRibeus G depth
3 74 Kansas City Chiefs Donald Stephenson OT depth
3 76 Houston Texans Brandon Brooks G starter
3 91 Atlanta Falcons Lamar Holmes OT released
3* 95 Oakland Raiders Tony Bergstrom G depth
2 42 Oakland Raiders Menelik Watson OT starter/IR
3 65 Detroit Lions Larry Warford G starter
3 72 New York Jets Brian Winters G depth
3 75 New Orleans Saints Terron Armstead OT starter
3 77 Miami Dolphins Dallas Thomas G depth
3 86 Indianapolis Colts Hugh Thornton G starter
3 89 Houston Texans Brennan Williams OT released
2 33 Houston Texans Xavier Su'a-Filo G starter
2 35 Cleveland Browns Joel Bitonio OT starter/IR
2 43 New York Giants Weston Richburg C starter
2 44 Buffalo Bills Cyrus Kouandjio OT depth?
2 59 Indianapolis Colts Jack Mewhort OT starter
2 64 Seattle Seahawks Justin Britt OT starter
3 66 Washington Redskins Morgan Moses OT starter
3 67 Miami Dolphins Billy Turner OT starter
3 70 San Francisco 49ers Marcus Martin C starter
3 76 Detroit Lions Travis Swanson C depth
3 78 Washington Redskins Spencer Long G depth/starter
3 81 Oakland Raiders Gabe Jackson G starter
3 89 San Diego Chargers Chris Watt G starter/IR
3 92 Carolina Panthers Trai Turner G starter
3 93 Jacksonville Jaguars Brandon Linder G starter/IR
3 95 Denver Broncos Michael Schofield OT starer
3* 100 San Francisco 49ers Brandon Thomas G injured

By my (admittedly sloppy and quick) review, of the 37 OL picked in the second & third rounds from 2012-2014 only four were pretty much busts. Discounting the injury luck, the rest are at least useful for depth, fringe starters, plug-ins when others are injured, or even some of the best OL already.

That is an astounding success rate and totally mind-blowing considering the first round OL failure rate is so drastically opposite.

So as you said, all the Rams had to do was show up in these rounds and draft one a year and they may have unwittingly tripped and fallen into a decent or even good OL unit.

Getting back to the original question, I'm leaning toward revising my choice now, perhaps it was these second-third round draft blunders -- specifically refusing to draft any OL -- that shipwrecked the franchise.

 

[fearsomefour]

Maybe spend some draft picks on the OL instead of all in on the DL. Bradford would get killed behind this OL.

Probably, but, at least he would get the ball out and not hold it. Most of the pressure Sunday vs Arizona was Foles holding the ball.....hold the ball, hold the ball....roll out to the right.
The guy just has no feel for the O. When there was a guy open he was late on the throw nearly every time.

 

[fearsomefour]

There were a lot of good OLinemen in the second and third round that are quality staters on other teams. Some of them were rumored to be considered by the Rams, like Warford. One a year would have built the OLine so they didn't have to go all in on one year.

If you want the one common denominator in all of this it is Lou Boudreau. Sometimes, as coaches age their ability to motivate drops off as there ability to teach. Motivating young men to excel is a difficult thing to do and it takes a great amount of energy and strategy. Maybe Boudreau has run out of gas.

How does Pittsburgh pull Villenueva off the heap? Mike Munchak is their OLine coach. I bet he could turn Robinson around in a season and if he couldn't he'd be moving him to Guard. He really knows how to coach the offensive line.

This has occurred to me as well.
He did good work reclaiming Barksdale. Joe was close to getting run out of the league and played mostly well for the Rams. By all accounts he is having a good year in SD. The irony is I think Barksdale took less money to play in a great offense and win.
After Barksdale it is hard to come up with a list of successes. Barnes has developed over several years and I expect he will be resigned and will be the starting C for the near future at least.