The singular moment that shipwrecked the Fisher/Snead regime

  • To unlock all of features of Rams On Demand please take a brief moment to register. Registering is not only quick and easy, it also allows you access to additional features such as live chat, private messaging, and a host of other apps exclusive to Rams On Demand.

FRO

Legend
Joined
Jun 1, 2013
Messages
5,308
October 20, 2013, Sam Bradford scrambles trying to get out of bounds in garbage time against the Carolina Panthers. Mike Mitchell hits him, causing Bradford's leg to move awkwardly. Sam was hitting his stride in 2013, having a great game against the Panthers. I do not believe Sam tears his knee in 2014 if he hadn't in 2013. Bradford was hitting his stride. We desperately need good QB play and haven't had an NFL capable starter since Sam. It's my belief that had Sam not got hurt, we would be in a totally different situation now. I think 2013 and 2014 we would have been in much better spots to make the playoffs. But injuries are a part of football and Sam gets hurt a lot.

We are back to the drawing board at the QB position. Foles is clearly not the answer. Neither is Keenum. We may be in QB purgatory for an extended period of time.
 

Dodgersrf

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Mar 17, 2014
Messages
10,784
Name
Scott
Uugghh.
It so damn frustrating,knowing that we have to start over and go through the learning curve of another young qb. Only to hope he pans out.
 

blue4

Hall of Fame
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
3,126
Name
blue4
The moment may have been when he cut his experiment with a up tempo modern offense short. Instead of staying the course with the young players, he reverted back to the offense he knew. It provided short term results and everyone including myself thought it was the right call. Perhaps he should have just endured the growing pains and maybe we'd have had a modern offense by now. Maybe not, who knows but I can't help but look back at that as the moment our offensive fate as plodding dullards was decided. Couple that reset after just a few games with the injuries to Bradford and there's the catalyst for 32 ranked offense.
 

Debacled

Starter
Joined
Jun 19, 2014
Messages
571
The moment may have been when he cut his experiment with a up tempo modern offense short. Instead of staying the course with the young players, he reverted back to the offense he knew. It provided short term results and everyone including myself thought it was the right call. Perhaps he should have just endured the growing pains and maybe we'd have had a modern offense by now. Maybe not, who knows but I can't help but look back at that as the moment our offensive fate as plodding dullards was decided. Couple that reset after just a few games with the injuries to Bradford and there's the catalyst for 32 ranked offense.

What constitutes a modern offense?
Is it like Seattle? Carolina? New England?

There is no cookie cutter works all the time offense. Considering how this team has absolutely no chance in the passing game its a dam miracle they are still the 7th ranked rushing offense in the league. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a ball control offense with a solid defense....unless of course the offense isn't controlling the ball. The 3rd down % kinda highlights that fact.

Want to know a crazy stat? The Rams actually have more completions on the year than the Panthers.

This team is literally a functioning QB away from being a contender. Not even pro bowler, just functioning. We saw it earlier this year before Foles melted into a puddle of QB excrement
 

tklongball

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Messages
1,207
I was at that game in Charlotte. Just a bad, ugly, game all around.
 

jjab360

Legend
Joined
Jan 21, 2013
Messages
6,687
If you were going to pick one singular moment, that would probably have to be it.

Unfortunately, Bradford has officially earned the label injury-prone more than almost any other player in the league. It was going to happen sooner or later.
 

Moostache

Rookie
Joined
Jun 26, 2014
Messages
290
What is stunning to me is just how much luck is involved in hitting the QB lottery...

SF? Montana....Young.....Garcia....hell even Kaperpunk was near elite for 3 years...
GB? Favre....Rodgers...
IND? Manning....Luck (though he is looking dangerously close to damaged goods

Even Arizona has gotten into the act lately with Warner and Palmer reviving their careers in the desert.

Rams?
Banks.
Bulger.
Bradford.
That's just the "B" QBs...

Foles? No.
Clemmens? No.
Keenum? No.
Davis? No.

Hideous. Just hideous.
 

Leuzer

Daniel Leu
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
2,166
For as bad as our quarterbacks have been over the past couple decades, we sure snag a few amazing running backs. It's a shame that in this era of football, that hardly means anything without a good qb.
Anyways, I remember nearly getting sick hearing that Bradford tore his acl. He was statistically off to the best start of his career then it came to a screeching halt. Tough to say where we'd be if he didn't tear it, but playing the hypothetical 'what if' game isn't worth anything right now. All we can do is hope Fisher is fired sooner rather than later and put this experiment behind us.
 

blue4

Hall of Fame
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
3,126
Name
blue4
What constitutes a modern offense?
Is it like Seattle? Carolina? New England?

There is no cookie cutter works all the time offense. Considering how this team has absolutely no chance in the passing game its a dam miracle they are still the 7th ranked rushing offense in the league. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a ball control offense with a solid defense....unless of course the offense isn't controlling the ball. The 3rd down % kinda highlights that fact.

Want to know a crazy stat? The Rams actually have more completions on the year than the Panthers.

This team is literally a functioning QB away from being a contender. Not even pro bowler, just functioning. We saw it earlier this year before Foles melted into a puddle of QB excrement

No there aren't cookie cutter works all the time offenses. But there are offenses that work better than others. I've said it before plenty and ill say it again. Ball control or offenses built on just taking time off the clock have a harder time winning games. You struggle to come back, you struggle in two minute drills. Everything always has to go right, because everything is based off the run game and play action. Carolina is doing well this year no doubt, but has it worked in previous years with the same QB? Nope. When I say modern offense, I'm not just talking about the playbook. I'm talking about the mentality. I'm talking about drafting players who are known for pass blocking as well as guys who spent their college running high school offenses and run blocking. Are we just a QB away? Maybe from .500, but I don't think we have the OL or the WRs to seriously compete in the playoffs. We can't handle blitzes, we struggle to make big catches even when the QB actually delivers the ball.

This is just the opinion I've had for a long time. All I'm saying is it COULD be the point where it went off the rails. Could you imagine Todd Gurley on a team that actually can pass the ball without spending three quarters in the run game first? A team that can run a screen pass or a slant without an act of God helping them?
 

manmaderam

The one and only
Joined
Mar 11, 2014
Messages
398
I was at that game. I live here in Charlotte and I remember Bradford going out. I was just astonished and said, "Shit there goes the season."
 

Legatron4

Legend
Joined
Aug 10, 2013
Messages
9,427
Name
Wes
I miss Bradford. He's looked good in games this year. I think they could win that division.
 

thirteen28

I like pizza.
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jan 15, 2013
Messages
8,350
Name
Erik
October 20, 2013, Sam Bradford scrambles trying to get out of bounds in garbage time against the Carolina Panthers. Mike Mitchell hits him, causing Bradford's leg to move awkwardly. Sam was hitting his stride in 2013, having a great game against the Panthers. I do not believe Sam tears his knee in 2014 if he hadn't in 2013. Bradford was hitting his stride. We desperately need good QB play and haven't had an NFL capable starter since Sam. It's my belief that had Sam not got hurt, we would be in a totally different situation now. I think 2013 and 2014 we would have been in much better spots to make the playoffs. But injuries are a part of football and Sam gets hurt a lot.

We are back to the drawing board at the QB position. Foles is clearly not the answer. Neither is Keenum. We may be in QB purgatory for an extended period of time.

I partially agree with this, as there is no doubt Sam's ACL injuries set this franchise back quite badly.

That being said, I think another defining moment (and this is on Fisher, not Snead) was choosing Schottenheimer of Hue Jackson as OC. Big, big mistake. I have little confidence that Schottenhemier would have the same level of success even with the talent the Bengals currently have than Jackson is having right now. And I think its quite likely that Jackson would have done better with the talent the Rams had on hand.

The one other thing is the OL, which is kind of 50/50. It's the fault of neither Fisher nor Snead that we've had so many injuries in that unit, and that has been a significant contributor to our problem this year. On the other hand, it was neglected in the draft for the most part until this year in favor of building the defense, with a focus on bringing in all veterans. When the all veterans approach didn't pan out, they went to the all draft picks approach, which left us very thin on experience and more vulnerable to a downturn when injuries struck.

Oh, and one other thing - can we finally retire that old canard that "defense win championships"? Gawd I hate, hate, HATE that one. We built a good defense (elite when healthy), and it doesn't win sh!t if the offense can't score points, much less stay on the field.
 

Alan

Legend
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
9,766
In January of 2012, Owner/Chairman E. Stanley Kroenke hired Jeff Fisher to be the 22nd full-time head coach in franchise history.
 

RaminExile

Hall of Fame
Joined
Sep 29, 2013
Messages
3,065
Before that moment we were going forwards. Ever since that moment we have been slipping backwards.

Once you're in QB purgatory there is only one fix. Getting the new guy. Look at Tampa Bay.
 

DCH

Madman with a box.
Joined
Jun 18, 2014
Messages
3,354
Name
Dewey
That's one. Another should be when a clearly not-ready-for-primetime Jake Long was run out in a meaningless preseason game to block Bradford's blindside with both coming off of devastating knee injuries. Shockingly, Long didn't have the explosion or lateral movement back in his game, and Bradford took a shot to the knee and ended up re-tearing his surgically-repaired ACL.

I will also say that even if Bradford hadn't torn his knee, he might well have gotten killed behind his O-line last year or this.

But 2013... had Bradford not hurt himself, they probably beat the Panthers, and very likely the Seahawks the next week (lost 14-9). Also probably beat the Titans the following week (lost by one score). The rest of the season would probably break the way it did, but those 2 games with that swing make the Rams 9-7 with a winning season and momentum going into last year.
 

cvramsfan

Rams On Demand Sponsor
Rams On Demand Sponsor
Joined
Jul 4, 2013
Messages
887
All we can do is hope Fisher is fired sooner rather than later and put this experiment behind us.

With the move to LA still a maybe (disclaimer, I live in Central Calif about 5 hrs for the LA area, have been a RAMS fan my entire life and have said time and time again I don't care where they play I just want them to be a WINNING team again. I will be a RAM fan no matter where they call home) I think Fisher stays through the year. Even if they do fire him now or at the end of the season who are they going to get to coach when they wont even say where the team will be next year. This issue has to be put to bed once and for all before they can move forward. I believe Fisher was hired to make this move and if he was successful then icing on the cake. Well he has not been successful but with the move still up in the air I think Fisher is here to stay until that is decided.

I feel so bad for those of you that live in the St Louis area and attend the games in person, you deserve a better product for your money. Hell all RAMS fan deserve a better product. I have had Sunday Ticket since Bradford was drafted and have watched every game and yesterday I just could make it through the end. Stopped watching with a little more than 3 min to play and deleted off the DVR.
 

Fatbot

Pro Bowler
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
1,467
A part of me hates this since it shouldn't be that one guy can sink a franchise, but part of me accepts it if you look at the realistic QB options the Rams could have picked in the draft since taking Bradford:
2011 draft- Tyrod Taylor instead of trading pick for Mark Clayton
2012 draft- Russell Wilson, Osweiler or Cousins instead of Quick, Pead or Givens
2013 draft- Landry Jones instead of Barrett Jones
2014 draft- Bortles, Bridgewater or Carr instead of Grob

Pretty brutal, lots of QB misses that I didn't list. So I want to be pissed the Rams were content with Clemens as the backup instead of investing one of these picks, but then I have to consider Bradford had the last mega-contract for a #1 QB as well. Still, Pittsburgh drafted L.Jones despite being "set" at QB with a franchise guy and old vets.

So yes probably have to point to the Bradford injury as what killed the regime, but second place is probably the "Bobby Wagner mad" draft. Overall the success rate of that draft was good (Brockers, JJ, Tru, GZ), but whiffing on Quick (more bad injury luck) and Givens at a time we desperately needed franchise WRs was costly. But again this was bad luck as the WR class was pretty horrid in that draft. The Pead decision is the key, that pick needed to be a franchise piece. And imagine if the Rams grab Wilson or Wagner it possibly changes the fate of the NFC West.
 
Last edited:

Irish

Starter
Joined
Jun 20, 2014
Messages
962
Ryan Fitzpartick
Kirk Cousins
Brian Hoyer
Tyrod Taylor

The QB narrative is so bogus. Did Sam getting hurt change the course of this franchise? Yes, it did. But the course was doomed to begin with because this regime failed to draft and sign effective, long term offensive linemen. I say effective because the offensive linemen they did draft either are not difference makers (Rok Watkins, Barrett Jones, Demetrius Rhaney) or a project whose career trajectory is plummeting alarmingly fast.

Forget for one second about hindsight on the defense. Even if you don't change a single defensive pick (which, for the record, I totally would, but whatever), the offensive players they have selected outside of Gurley should have been offensive linemen. This isn't hindsight, this is how winning teams are built. If you want to build the defensive line, that's fine, do it, but the only thing more important than a defensive line is an offensive line. The reason this regime is seemingly in hot water is because it took 4 drafts into their reign for them to "get serious" about offensive line help, and like a bad student who doesn't study all semester only to cram the night before a final, they crammed rookie offensive linemen into the system and act surprised when they end up hurt or woefully ineffective.

It's not the quarterback. It has been, and always will be the offensive line. Battered QB syndrome isn't caused by bad QB play, it is caused by bad offensive line play.
 

Fatbot

Pro Bowler
Joined
Jun 25, 2014
Messages
1,467
But the course was doomed to begin with because this regime failed to draft and sign effective, long term offensive linemen. I say effective because the offensive linemen they did draft either are not difference makers (Rok Watkins, Barrett Jones, Demetrius Rhaney) or a project whose career trajectory is plummeting alarmingly fast.
My gut agrees with you, but it's interesting to look at the OLs in recent drafts, here's the possible Pro Bowlers we could have had:

2010- Pouncey instead of Quinn
2011- Kelce (6th round)
2012- none
2013- K.Long instead of Tavon, T.Frederick instead of Ogletree
2014- Z.Martin instead of Grob or Donald

Not sure which of those I would have done. It's kind of been a weird deal for this franchise, when we needed a #1 QB and got the #1 pick, we got the Bradford luck. When we needed franchise WRs to go with him, there was Alshon Jeffery and nothing else in that draft class. We needed to draft tons of quality OL but they just haven't existed in the draft for several years now. There's been many articles written on the woeful state of the OL in the NFL, with factoids like:

"from 2012-2014, there were 18 offensive linemen taken in the first round, including eight in the top 10 of those drafts. None of those players taken in the top 10 has been to a Pro Bowl, and only three of the 18 have played in one. Moreover, many of those top-10 tackles have struggled, including Minnesota's Matt Kalil, Kansas City's Eric Fisher and Jacksonville's Luke Joeckel. It used to be a top-10 tackle was a pretty sure thing. Not anymore.

It's not like teams can just replace a starter with a backup. They're even worse. 'The biggest drop-off of all position, maybe in all of sports, between starter and backup is at offensive line' ... " http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/writer...e-quality-of-o-line-play-in-the-nfl-is-putrid

"'I've been harping on that for two years," said Matt Williamson, who scouts the NFL for ESPN. "I don't think the average fan realizes what an O-line shortage there is now. There are very few teams with lines that have had continuity, and there's certainly less Hall of Fame-level guys playing right now. You don't look around and see many of the Jonathan Ogden, Orlando Pace and Walter Jones types anymore." http://espn.go.com/blog/nflnation/post/_/id/181904/nfls-o-line-epidemic-threatens-its-qb-star-system

I believe in holding people accountable so I'm quick to blame the regime for the state of the OL, but there's a lot of circumstances involved here in unearthing quality OL play. Honestly, I don't know why a team like Pittsburgh can grab Villanueva off the scrap heap because of his size and convert him to a useful LT while the Rams can't get a #2 pick to play even to the level of "not suck". And the Rams even tried to play the size game by flirting with that 400 lb. dude, I forget his name now. The more you look, the more you see the Rams desperately trying things to get quality OL that just don't pan out (see the C "open competition" etc.). So the try was there, I just can't decide if the fail was bad regime or bad luck.

Given this OL backdrop, I don't think I can just flat-out blame the Rams for "not drafting good OL". They just rarely existed, and I can't "blame" a regime for not being perfect in the draft that's a crapshoot. Can I blame someone for not succeeding on a 16.7% chance on drafting a decent OL in the first round?

The other solution when you can't get talent is to at least create an OL that jells as a unit, and maybe some teams are luckily able to avoid injury and at least get some coherency in their OL. Injuries decimated the Rams chances of doing this of course, too.

Still, many of the Rams OL choices were just bad and illogical along the way. Investing in frail old vets, flip-flopping positions, keeping useless chumps like Wells around for way too long, etc. So I still find myself quick to blame, I hate excuses. But I can't ignore them either.