Terry Bradshaw on Peyton Manning: If you like losing Super Bowls, he’s your guy

[PrometheusFaulk]

That pretty much ends the debate, doesn't it? Manning isn't great in the playoffs.

And I think we come full circle. Great regular season stats and lesser playoff performances. Which is exactly what Bradshaw offered of Peyton Manning.

I would disagree that merely demonstrating that in this rather small sample size of 23 total postseason games in which this one metric (while still quite high) doesn't match his regular season average (which is obscenely high) means, "he isn't great in the playoffs" or even further, "he ain't great."

I would posit that in the regular season, over a longer period of time than any of the fellas you mentioned outside of Favre, statistically speaking (which to me seems what we are really talking about, not intangibles or eras) was BETTER, and subsequently he is penalized by this line of thinking. The measure should be how he does against his contemporaries, not how he does against himself, to demonstrate greatness, IMO. And by virtually any metric, he blows them fools away. Which is why he's likely to be enshrined in Canton someday and will likely be considered a better quarterback than Terry Bradshaw by most folks who would want to compare the two.

Nonetheless Terry and you are entitled to your opinion.

 

[PrometheusFaulk]

Just to elaborate further, Peyton's career passer rating of 97.2 is the 2nd best of all time next to Rodgers. With 18 TDs next year, he'll break Favre's record for touchdowns thrown in a career. He's also only about 5,900 yards away from the yardage number.

In short he's done it better, longer than anyone else in the history of the sport. If he had better (not necessarily the greatest of all time, but let's just say more frequently elite) defensive teammates, I have little doubt he would have been put in more favorable situations than say, having to spend back to back years throwing out of a double digit hole in Foxboro, which may not have only changed the outcome of the game, but how many incomplete passes there were, picks thrown, etc.

Revisionist history, sure. But this thing is subjective anyway. Just like the opinion of Terry Bradshaw.

 

[-X-]

If Manning's defenses (and/or special teams) helped him to win more Super Bowls, then this would be a non-story, right?
Then what does it say about the story that his defenses (and/or special teams) didn't help?

 

[jrry32]

I would disagree that merely demonstrating that in this rather small sample size of 23 total postseason games in which this one metric (while still quite high) doesn't match his regular season average (which is obscenely high) means, "he isn't great in the playoffs" or even further, "he ain't great."

I would posit that in the regular season, over a longer period of time than any of the fellas you mentioned outside of Favre, statistically speaking (which to me seems what we are really talking about, not intangibles or eras) was BETTER, and subsequently he is penalized by this line of thinking. The measure should be how he does against his contemporaries, not how he does against himself, to demonstrate greatness, IMO. And by virtually any metric, he blows them fools away. Which is why he's likely to be enshrined in Canton someday and will likely be considered a better quarterback than Terry Bradshaw by most folks who would want to compare the two.

Nonetheless Terry and you are entitled to your opinion.

Awesome post!

That pretty much ends the debate, doesn't it? Manning isn't great in the playoffs.

And I think we come full circle. Great regular season stats and lesser playoff performances. Which is exactly what Bradshaw offered of Peyton Manning.

No. Manning is great in the playoffs. Just not as good as Warner, Montana, Brees and Rodgers. They are elite in the playoffs.

 

[jrry32]

If Manning's defenses (and/or special teams) helped him to win more Super Bowls, then this would be a non-story, right?
Then what does it say about the story that his defenses (and/or special teams) didn't help?

What's interesting to me is that Manning, in his entire playoff career, was only carried twice by his defense through bad performances. Both in the year the Colts won the Super Bowl.

Whereas Tom Brady was carried in five different seasons when he had poor performances and Terry Bradshaw was carried in three different seasons where he had poor performances...two of which resulted in Super Bowl wins for each.

Hell, Manning got called a choker after his team lost 38-35 to the Ravens in 2012. Despite there being only 11 examples in NFL Playoff history where a team lost despite scoring 35 points.

Manning has a narrative about his career...and it's that he's a playoff choker. Doesn't matter what he does...it's not changing...spare an absolutely dominant post-season and a Super Bowl win. Which isn't nearly as easy as some make it sound.

 

[jrry32]

Hell @moklerman

Let me ask you this, Kurt Warner has a 1-2 career record in the Super Bowl. Peyton Manning has a 1-2 career record in the Super Bowl. Do you think it would be accurate if someone said, "Kurt Warner is your guy if you like losing Super Bowls"?

Bradshaw didn't say, "If you like not reaching the Super Bowl, Manning is your guy". He specifically said that Manning loses Super Bowls. But he has the same record as Warner.

Now, that's precisely why I think attributing wins and losses as well as Super Bowl wins to a QB is bogus.

 

[SWMO Fan]

I like Bradshaw on the Fox pregame shows. He is pretty funny, kind of plays the role of a clown. I'm a bit surprised that he would dis Peyton.

 

[kurtfaulk]

If Manning's defenses (and/or special teams) helped him to win more Super Bowls, then this would be a non-story, right?
Then what does it say about the story that his defenses (and/or special teams) didn't help?

It would say since the day he entered the league he has taken up a significant portion of the teams salary cap. That's the problem when your team considers you the best at your position and pays you accordingly. Other positions suffer.

.

 

[moklerman]

Hell @moklerman

Let me ask you this, Kurt Warner has a 1-2 career record in the Super Bowl. Peyton Manning has a 1-2 career record in the Super Bowl. Do you think it would be accurate if someone said, "Kurt Warner is your guy if you like losing Super Bowls"?

Bradshaw didn't say, "If you like not reaching the Super Bowl, Manning is your guy". He specifically said that Manning loses Super Bowls. But he has the same record as Warner.

Now, that's precisely why I think attributing wins and losses as well as Super Bowl wins to a QB is bogus.

Strawman.

 

[RamsFan14]

Hell @moklerman

Let me ask you this, Kurt Warner has a 1-2 career record in the Super Bowl. Peyton Manning has a 1-2 career record in the Super Bowl. Do you think it would be accurate if someone said, "Kurt Warner is your guy if you like losing Super Bowls"?

Bradshaw didn't say, "If you like not reaching the Super Bowl, Manning is your guy". He specifically said that Manning loses Super Bowls. But he has the same record as Warner.

Now, that's precisely why I think attributing wins and losses as well as Super Bowl wins to a QB is bogus.

Besides the last few days, I haven't seen you online in awhile! Idk if you went away for a bit or not (might just be hallucinating lol) but glad to see you posting again!

 

[moklerman]

Besides the last few days, I haven't seen you online in awhile! Idk if you went away for a bit or not (might just be hallucinating lol) but glad to see you posting again!

I really enjoy his posts too.

Even when he's wrong.

 

[jrry32]

Besides the last few days, I haven't seen you online in awhile! Idk if you went away for a bit or not (might just be hallucinating lol) but glad to see you posting again!

Thanks man. I've been working a lot and my computer was in the shop getting repaired for a couple weeks. Finally have had a couple days off and I got the computer back last week. I'll probably be in and out this summer with my hectic work schedule...but I'll be here and ready when the season starts!

Strawman.

Not a strawman. It's a parallel and a comparison with a player that we both think the world of.

 

[LesBaker]

If Manning's defenses (and/or special teams) helped him to win more Super Bowls, then this would be a non-story, right?
Then what does it say about the story that his defenses (and/or special teams) didn't help?

The only reason he got one SB win was the defense. That post season he was a train wreck.

 

[moklerman]

Thanks man. I've been working a lot and my computer was in the shop getting repaired for a couple weeks. Finally have had a couple days off and I got the computer back last week. I'll probably be in and out this summer with my hectic work schedule...but I'll be here and ready when the season starts!



Not a strawman. It's a parallel and a comparison with a player that we both think the world of.

The strawman is that Peyton isn't a good post season/Super Bowl QB because "his" record is 1-2(like Warner's). No one's arguing that.

 

[jrry32]

The strawman is that Peyton isn't a good post season/Super Bowl QB because "his" record is 1-2(like Warner's). No one's arguing that.

That's precisely what Bradshaw said.

And if you're still arguing that Peyton Manning isn't a good post-season QB, count me out because I think the logic behind that argument has been pretty thoroughly debated by myself and Prometheus.

 

[Rambition]

judging by some of the things terry says...i have to believe he's beginning to feel the effects of this kind of thing...

 

[The Rammer]

 

[moklerman]

That's precisely what Bradshaw said.

And if you're still arguing that Peyton Manning isn't a good post-season QB, count me out because I think the logic behind that argument has been pretty thoroughly debated by myself and Prometheus.

Why would I argue? We agree. Manning isn't a great playoff QB. You said it yourself.

And I don't need to debate the logic, the numbers clearly show he hasn't performed well in the 3 Super Bowls he's played in. He's nowhere near the top of the list of all-time QB's that I'd pick to lead my hypothetical team in the post season.

 

[jrry32]

Why would I argue? We agree. Manning isn't a great playoff QB. You said it yourself.

And I don't need to debate the logic, the numbers clearly show he hasn't performed well in the 3 Super Bowls he's played in. He's nowhere near the top of the list of all-time QB's that I'd pick to lead my hypothetical team in the post season.

We don't agree. Manning is a great playoff QB. Just not an elite one.

As far as the bold is concerned, you don't get to choose a QB solely for the post-season. If I were choosing a QB to lead my team, Peyton Manning is #1 on my list of the QBs of the last 20 years. If I were choosing a QB solely for the post-season(again, impossible), the only guys I'd take over him would be Warner, Montana, Brees and Rodgers.

 

[moklerman]

We don't agree. Manning is a great playoff QB. Just not an elite one.

As far as the bold is concerned, you don't get to choose a QB solely for the post-season. If I were choosing a QB to lead my team, Peyton Manning is #1 on my list of the QBs of the last 20 years. If I were choosing a QB solely for the post-season(again, impossible), the only guys I'd take over him would be Warner, Montana, Brees and Rodgers.

Okay, play semantics if you like. But, I "don't get to" choose what I want for a hypothetical scenario? Why not? This is all "impossible".

There are all kinds of factors that aren't being addressed that even under hypothetical conditions would change the conversation. For example, what if Joe Namath played in today's game and benefited from the protection QB's get and got to be drafted into the NFL(as opposed to choosing between the AFL/NFL)? What if he got to play in an offense that had all the technology and scouting and development that a modern day offense has? Would he clean up his act and work hard to be a better player? Did his shredded knees have anything to do with his drinking? Could he restrain himself and even commit himself to being better and play within the offense like a Tom Brady?

What about Bradshaw? What would his career have looked like if he came into the league and had a team built around him? Had good coaching and a QB guru dedicated to him and to making him better? After that '74 draft they had Stallworth and Swann and his numbers greatly improved for example. What if he was playing today's league with all the rules to protect the offensive players and geared toward Madden like numbers?

It's usually pretty difficult to talk about players from different eras because of all the moving parts. It just isn't as simple as saying Manning would be great in any era because look at what he does now. Not IMO.