Tavon Austin is an interesting player...

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Piece of cake! You couldn't have made this easier this is the exact same situation just a longer return for a TD.



I believe we say game, set and match.

Not even remotely the same. The entire Saints team was walking off the field in that play. No one even tried to tackle Bailey. All he did was run down an empty field. I am pretty sure most of us could make that play. But I get it Oldschool, you don't think as highly as some others do of Tavon's skill set. To each his own.
 

RamFan503

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And for the love of God I'm not saying he doesn't! His punt return performance last year was not as good as his first two years. I have blinders on I guess looking at 18th in the NFL in punt return and thinking that is average means I'm blind to his amazing performance in 2015 then so be it. I see pedestrian numbers and called them pedestrian. Sorry I've clearly irritated too many people with my opinion. As for your wait what it was in response to being called a hater because of my opinion on his punt return performance. Obviously calling somebody with an 8.5 yard return average and 3 fumbles is hating. Lets not forget that btw 10 fumbles on punts in 3 years. One in every ten times he returns a punt he fumbles. Enough from me though I'll take my hating and go eat some popcorn while I watch the Dodgers try to close out the game.
Go Dodger Blue!
 

Corbin

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Whoaaaaa I got to this thread way late but I have to respectfully disagree with you Rams43. I don't think there is many posts or subjects we aren't as one on but on this we must split.

My first reasoning is TA has had a convo of Sam Bradford, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill, Nick Foles, and Case Keenum to build chemistry with and I think we can all agree that all these guys at the time were average at best. Dude has literally been over/under thrown I don't know how many times. When the ball is there literally anything can happen. His YAC yards are stupidly good!

As far as his PR goes literally how many of those TD's/ big yardage returns have been called back from a bone headed ST'r or bad call? I have literally lost count after just 2 seasons.

This doesn't include passing TD's and rushes that have been called back. I'd really like to see what how his stats stack up to the others even with just half those give to him.

Dude is a beast and with a legit QB and run game he will become ever more effective...

Ps we don't have dumb shit Schotty running him up the middle like he's Franco Harris anymore.

Dudes about to come up and it doesn't matter if he doesn't just have gawdy stats doing one thing he's a weapon!
 

Corbin

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I believe he had two long returns and one long offensive play called back last year. Not TDs this time but called back none the less.

As far as kicking away from a returner, of course a punter is going to do what will flip the field as much as possible. If it is a slower, less shifty returner, he will give it distance knowing that the 8 or 10 yards every time won't hurt his team and instead can be made up with kicking distance over placement. But in a case like TA, Peterson (more earlier in his career), Lockett, and one or two others, the punter will put more air under the ball or concentrate on angling toward the sideline far more than applying distance. What that means is that returners like TA often get the ball after greater hang time so the defense is already on top of him when he receives the punt or he has the sideline to help the defense limit his options. Either way, the punts limit his yards after the catch unlike many that get the automatic yards after longer punts. The stats don't give you hang time or place on the field so these guys getting the automatic yards and averaging a yard or maybe two more rank ahead of TA but it would be wrong to say that they are indeed better returners.

BTW - Hekker was voted to the Probowl for a reason and it damn sure wasn't our standing as a playoff caliber team. He is probably the best punter in the league. Most punters couldn't dream of doing what he is able to do in combining accuracy AND power.
Stop making sense!
 

Rams43

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Whoaaaaa I got to this thread way late but I have to respectfully disagree with you Rams43. I don't think there is many posts or subjects we aren't as one on but on this we must split.

My first reasoning is TA has had a convo of Sam Bradford, Austin Davis, Shaun Hill, Nick Foles, and Case Keenum to build chemistry with and I think we can all agree that all these guys at the time were average at best. Dude has literally been over/under thrown I don't know how many times. When the ball is there literally anything can happen. His YAC yards are stupidly good!

As far as his PR goes literally how many of those TD's/ big yardage returns have been called back from a bone headed ST'r or bad call? I have literally lost count after just 2 seasons.

This doesn't include passing TD's and rushes that have been called back. I'd really like to see what how his stats stack up to the others even with just half those give to him.

Dude is a beast and with a legit QB and run game he will become ever more effective...

Ps we don't have dumb crap Schotty running him up the middle like he's Franco Harris anymore.

Dudes about to come up and it doesn't matter if he doesn't just have gawdy stats doing one thing he's a weapon!

No problem, Corbin.

No two people agree about every single thing every single time. Would be boring if they did, huh?

As to Austin being overrated? Let me throw this in the hopper. Boldin's last three years have dwarfed Austin's last three by quite a margin. And Boldin is chugging along in his late thirties, I believe. Boldin's WORST year is better than Austin's BEST year as a WR. And Austin IS listed as a WR on the Rams website, fwiw.

Just for purposes of perspective, mind you.
 

RamFan503

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I don't think he has justified his #8 overall pick status. A do over would have given us Hopkins in the 1st and Warford in the 2nd. Clearly much better value, IMO.
You don't get do-overs in the NFL. Still. TA's overall ACTUAL stats match up pretty well with Hopkins. And Hopkins also lasted until #27. Clearly many other NFL execs passed on him. Also, at the time, it was clear that other teams were lined up in the TA sweepstakes. Moving up was the only way to grab who most considered to be the most dynamic WEAPON in the draft.

I do think many are overrating him as a PR. I chalk it up to homerism. He's average there, okay? OldSchool and I are right, I think. If not, where are his Pro Bowl trophies? Or Pro Bowl votes? Or even top 10 status?
As others have said, the Probowl is a popularity contest. But I would contend that if not for bad calls and stupid penalties, he is easily in at least one. I thought maybe many returners had these kinds of issues - y'know... kinda like teams with bad officiating. But someone posted an article last year showing how it wasn't even close. TA had far more big plays taken away than any other player not playing QB. I just don't see how that can be glossed over. I am guessing the coaches in the NFL don't discount it when doing game prep.

The discussion is fine but you have to understand when you throw out loaded, ambiguous terms like overrated, you are doubling down on those who actually like the player and the pick. Then when you and @OldSchool use dismissive language like, "I chalk it up to homerism" or "looking through rose colored glasses" you are only going to piss us off more. Having the discussion is great. But don't act like we are all being unreasonable because we somehow can't see through our rose colored homervision. In that respect, you are attacking the poster not the subject and that is NOT cool here.

He's clearly overrated as a WR. Nine TD's in 3 years? Just 1133 receiving yards in 3 years total? C'mon...
He's not clearly overrated as a receiver because no one has said he is a great receiver in the NFL. Have they and I just missed it?

Tavon gets by on athleticism and instincts. He's not a cerebral football player. Quicks and speed are his game.
And? That may be debatable anyway but you could say that about hundreds of elite players over the years.

I would favor a more traditional and football savvy player, myself.
And that is your preference. Not wrong or right as a generality.

And it's absolutely so where near the worst. fuck, it isn't even a bad trade really at all.
This^^^
No need for F bombs, Athos.
You fucking kidding me? This is a fuckload cleaner than a lot of Athos' posts. Where you been? BTW - this is not to be construed as a fucking condoning of throwing F-bombs everywhere or getting pissy with language. I fucking hate that.

Got it Tavon is the only one who teams tried to punt away from in the NFL.
Yeah... THAT's what others are saying. We are also saying that TA is the best punt returner EVER, he deserves a raise, and can do no wrong. Oh - BTW - did you know he can walk on water?(y):rolleyes:

As to Austin being overrated? Let me throw this in the hopper. Boldin's last three years have dwarfed Austin's last three by quite a margin. And Boldin is chugging along in his late thirties, I believe. Boldin's WORST year is better than Austin's BEST year as a WR. And Austin IS listed as a WR on the Rams website, fwiw.
And TA had more combined yards than AB has ever had in any season of his entire career. As much as you want to pigeon hole him to prove your overrated point, he is simply not that kind of player. His value is not as a receiver OR a change of pace running back, OR a punt returner, OR a gadget player. His value is that he can do all of them pretty well and quite possibly with the right situation, can be a pretty damn good receiver as well.

But come on. Our top receiver didn't even top 700 yards. Are we really blaming TA for the pathetic receiving totals? As if TA was the root of the problem? Is it possible - even likely - that TA would have better numbers if he got to play along side Andre freaking Johnson for a couple years or had even a hint of a passing game to play within?
 

Corbin

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No problem, Corbin.

No two people agree about every single thing every single time. Would be boring if they did, huh?

As to Austin being overrated? Let me throw this in the hopper. Boldin's last three years have dwarfed Austin's last three by quite a margin. And Boldin is chugging along in his late thirties, I believe. Boldin's WORST year is better than Austin's BEST year as a WR. And Austin IS listed as a WR on the Rams website, fwiw.

Just for purposes of perspective, mind you.
Yes I hear ya bro! Not everyone's going to agree or see eye to eye 100% of the time! I see myself debating this shit over a brew or two saying" you plum ass crazy" lol

Anyways dude, Boldin is 35 right now!

image.png

And honestly I consider Boldin a complete WR since the AZ days and have no debate he at this point is a better WR. As a player!? Meh that's that debatable in total contribution. He's actually one of my favorite guys in the NFL for years and I wanted him on our team forever! ( even tho people bitched he was 30+ years ago....)
 

RhodyRams

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As RAMS fans we are all tired of mediocrity, aren't we?

If the Rams made the playoffs last year, would we be having this discussion?

If TA was on a team that won 12 gsmes, would he be considered over rated?
 

ausmurp

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So compare him to the other receivers taken in that draft. Most people had Patterson as the other top WR. Some had Hopkins. If you want to compare straight stats as far as overall yardage and scoring, TA stacks up against anyone in that draft. Hopkins is more of a straight up receiver - for sure. But even with AP in the backfield, Patterson has been less than impressive for all but portions of his rookie season. He is going backward while TA is going forward.

People want to call TA a slot receiver or say we did not get a top receiver after moving up to 8 to get him. Sorry folks. We didn't move up to get a RECEIVER. We moved up to get a WEAPON. And that weapon has scored more and racked up more yards than any "receiver" in that draft except for Hopkins and they are tied n TDs and TA has only 200 yards less. If you were to add back in the nullified plays, he is ahead in both categories. And this on a completely incompetent offensive unit.

So while he may be over rated by some and may not have the dream stats many have wanted out of him, he has been anything but a wasted pick. You can't just compartmentalize his value and I'm sorry but his plays haven't been "trick" plays. An end around is not a trick play. A screen pass is not a trick play. A crossing route is not a trick play. Schotty running him up the gut behind a line that couldn't block DAMN sure was not a trick play. He has actually had very few trick plays and probably the biggest trick play was when he drew the entire coverage team to his side allowing Sted to score untouched.

I'd add that punters are very aware of TA when he is on the field. Most will give up distance for pinning him to the sideline or flat out kicking it out of bounds. That is a return stat that will never show on a line but what is that worth to a team?

Oh - and as small as he is, he is still a very willing and very effective blocker - another category that rarely gets any mention but I guarantee you the coaches notice.

Also y'all need to understand that yards from scrimmage, weather receiving or rushing, are the exact same damn thing. Tavon is not a pure WR. He runs the ball too. He had over 900 yds from scrimmage last yr. That is the same thing as 900 receiving yds or 900 rushing yds. He had 900 yds from scrimmage. That's pretty awesome considering how bad our O was. I expect some improvement and progression and thing he can amass 1300yds from scrimmage this yr. Again that is the same as 1300 rec yds or 1300 rushing yds. Yds from scrimmage are the same either way.
 

OntarioRam

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Long post incoming! Fair warning.

Tavon Austin might not be anything more than a mediocre pure wide-out for a variety of reasons - small catch radius, average route running, average hands. But Austin only being a mediocre conventional WR is fine with me because he is an extremely valuable *football player*.

For starters, he is one of the best punt returners in the game. If not the best. As mentioned in this thread already, perhaps nobody in the NFL is kicked away from as much as Tavon Austin. That's pretty telling. Seattle tried kicking to Austin in week 1 this past season. He promptly returned it for a highlight reel TD. That was the end of teams kicking to Austin in 2015-16. The rare times he does get the ball on punt returns, the defensive coverage is often strong due to the hang time punters put on it vs. Austin. But Tavon still routinely makes something out of nothing. Or, when he gets a strong block or two, takes it to the house or damn near it.

On offense, he's a threat to score every time he touches the ball. He had 10 touchdowns last year on how many snaps? Someone above me already pointed the stat out out. His TD numberss were comparable to Gurley's despite a fraction of the touches. On a team that is desperate for offense, you think fans would appreciate a player whose TD-to-snap ratio is consistently among the highest in the NFL.

Even though Austin is small in stature, he's also a great blocker, which is not a quality to be overlooked in an offensive skill player. Especially in a power offence like ours (there is a reason Brian Quick might yet make this team again!). Austin's speed allows him to get to his man in the blink of an eye. And he is not at all shy about using every ounce of his undersized body. Just ask Pierre Desir, Tavon absolutely trucked him last year to spring Gurley vs Cleveland.

His mere presence keeps defences honest. Plus, more unique to the Rams offense, he is the perfect compliment to Gurley. The misdirection the Rams run with Austin and Gurley is a mutually beneficial set up, but neither player will see that value they contribute reflected in their individual stats. At least not directly...

Despite his average receiving ability - again, small catch radius etc - he can still be a deadly weapon as a WR if used correctly and a QB is accurate enough to hit him in stride (see: his game vs. Indy) or fit the ball in tight windows (see: Foles to Austin against Arizona). Sadly, arguably no team has had worse QBs than the Rams as of late. Or worse offensive coordinators. Goff and his accuracy has the potential to see Austin's game catapult to truly epic levels. Fingers crossed. If in addition to Goff panning out we finally have an OC that can also use Austin effectively?! Look out!

Austin is also a huge threat as a RB. I don't know why we ran him into the teeth of the defense so many times last year, but I digress...

And is there any player better in open space? There was a stat published about teams breaking tackles / making players miss recently where the Rams were near the very top of the league. Austin, unsurprisingly, was leading that charge (along with Benny Cunningham).

I think there are two main issues that cause people to conclude Austin is overrated. For one, they look at his (receiving) stats and say "not good enough!", not realising that Austin is one of those rare players whose value will never fully be captured by numbers alone. Secondly, people will see Tavon listed as a WR, see that he isn't overly impressive as a conventional WR, and then get frustrated. People have to stop thinking of Austin in terms of pure wide-out terms. He's listed as a WR only because you have to list him as *something*.... in reality he is a gadget player that defies being boxed in by any one positional label. Some people say that like it's a bad thing. I think it's a huge compliment. Austin is a true swiss army knife - he can do it all. And he's been doing it with crappy QBs and OCs. He might be the biggest scoring threat in the league, IMO. For that reason alone, if he's "overrated", then I'll take his overrated TD scoring ass on my team any day.
 
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CGI_Ram

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Long post incoming! Fair warning.

Tavon Austin might not be anything more than a mediocre pure wide-out for a variety of reasons - small catch radius, average route running, average hands. But Austin only being a mediocre conventional WR is fine with me because he is an extremely valuable *football player*.

For starters, he is one of the best punt returners in the game. If not the best. As mentioned in this thread already, perhaps nobody in the NFL is kicked away from as much as Tavon Austin. That's pretty telling. Seattle tried kicking to Austin in week 1 this past season. He promptly returned it for a highlight reel TD. That was the end of teams kicking to Austin in 2015-16. The rare times he does get the ball on punt returns, the defensive coverage is often strong due to the hang time punters put on it vs. Austin. But Tavon still routinely makes something out of nothing. Or, when he gets a strong block or two, takes it to the house or damn near it.

On offense, he's a threat to score every time he touches the ball. He had 10 touchdowns last year on how many snaps? Someone above me already pointed the stat out out. His TD numberss were comparable to Gurley's despite a fraction of the touches. On a team that is desperate for offense, you think fans would appreciate a player whose TD-to-snap ratio is consistently among the highest in the NFL.

Even though Austin is small in stature, he's also a great blocker, which is not a quality to be overlooked in an offensive skill player. Especially in a power offence like ours (there is a reason Brian Quick might yet make this team again!). Austin's speed allows him to get to his man in the blink of an eye. And he is not at all shy about using every ounce of his undersized body. Just ask Pierre Desir, Tavon absolutely trucked him last year to spring Gurley vs Cleveland.

His mere presence keeps defences honest. Plus, more unique to the Rams offense, he is the perfect compliment to Gurley. The misdirection the Rams run with Austin and Gurley is a mutually beneficial set up, but neither player will see that value they contribute reflected in their individual stats. At least not directly...

Despite his average receiving ability - again, small catch radius etc - he can still be a deadly weapon as a WR if used correctly and a QB is accurate enough to hit him in stride (see: his game vs. Indy) or fit the ball in tight windows (see: Foles to Austin against Arizona). Sadly, arguably no team has had worse QBs than the Rams as of late. Or worse offensive coordinators. Goff and his accuracy has the potential to see Austin's game catapult to truly epic levels. Fingers crossed. If in addition to Goff panning out we finally have an OC that can also use Austin effectively?! Look out!

Austin is also a huge threat as a RB. I don't know why we ran him into the teeth of the defense so many times last year, but I digress...

And is there any player better in open space? There was a stat published about teams breaking tackles / making players miss recently where the Rams were near the very top of the league. Austin, unsurprisingly, was leading that charge (along with Benny Cunningham).

I think there are two main issues that cause people to conclude Austin is overrated. For one, they look at his (receiving) stats and say "not good enough!", not realising that Austin is one of those rare players whose value will never fully be captured by numbers alone. Secondly, people will see Tavon listed as a WR, see that he isn't overly impressive as a conventional WR, and then get frustrated. People have to stop thinking of Austin in terms of pure wide-out terms. He's listed as a WR only because you have to list him as *something*.... in reality he is a gadget player that defies being boxed in by any one positional label. Some people say that like it's a bad thing. I think it's a huge compliment. Austin is a true swiss army knife - he can do it all. And he's been doing it with crappy QBs and OCs. He might be the biggest scoring threat in the league, IMO. For that reason alone, if he's "overrated", then I'll take his overrated TD scoring ass on my team any day.

Get in here;

http://www.ramsondemand.com/threads/week-6-la-rams-vs-detroit-kitty-cats.45497/
 

kurtfaulk

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No problem, Corbin.

No two people agree about every single thing every single time. Would be boring if they did, huh?

As to Austin being overrated? Let me throw this in the hopper. Boldin's last three years have dwarfed Austin's last three by quite a margin. And Boldin is chugging along in his late thirties, I believe. Boldin's WORST year is better than Austin's BEST year as a WR. And Austin IS listed as a WR on the Rams website, fwiw.

Just for purposes of perspective, mind you.

How many rushing tds and return tds has boldin scored?

.
 

Rams43

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One last time...

The topic of this thread kinda got sidetracked.

It was not whether Austin could play.
Or whether he was a playmaker.
Or whether he was an effective decoy.

It was whether he was the most overrated RAM player. Emphasis Ram player.

I think he is. I even think he is among the most overrated in the league. But that doesn't mean I think the kid can't play or lacks value. That's a straw man argument.

Obviously, others disagree. Some have disagreed strongly. It's almost like I said that their new grandchild is ugly. Lol.

I've made my case. I can see where other reasonable posters could feel differently.

Hopefully, Austin can have a breakout season while paired with Goff this year.
 

RamFan503

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It was whether he was the most overrated RAM player. Emphasis Ram player.

I think he is. I even think he is among the most overrated in the league. But that doesn't mean I think the kid can't play or lacks value. That's a straw man argument.
And how many are saying you said he couldn't play or lacks any value? None? Did you say something about straw man argument? Were you expecting a bunch of people to just agree with you?

People seem to be taking exception mostly to your most overrated position. It appears most don't agree and can see a player that helps out in several significant ways that both do and don't show up on a stat line.

The straw man is telling people they are saying something they are not simply because they point to factors that don't back up your assertions.
 

Athos

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Colin Krapperdick is THE definition of an overrated player. Not Austin. Analysts these days always bitch about his lack of WR ability and his tragic route running and so so hands. Tell me where his WR abilities are ever touted by people in the booth or table.

It's always been the ability with the ball in his hands already. And that isn't an overrated ability. He's one of the most dynamic when he has the ball.

Krapperdick meanwhile had people riding his balls from day one. Need I remind the constant Jaws love and literally every broadcaster when he played?

His hideous flaws were hidden on a stacked team and no one wanted to mention them. That's overrated.


Hell, for a long ass time, I'd say people were riding Bradfords ass as the most overrated Ram player.
 

Rams43

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And how many are saying you said he couldn't play or lacks any value? None? Did you say something about straw man argument? Were you expecting a bunch of people to just agree with you?

People seem to be taking exception mostly to your most overrated position. It appears most don't agree and can see a player that helps out in several significant ways that both do and don't show up on a stat line.

The straw man is telling people they are saying something they are not simply because they point to factors that don't back up your assertions.

I thought that I was taking the high road and extending the olive branch, RamFan503. Guess I missed again.

One very, very, very last time...

It is possible for me to see Austin as a player "that helps out in several significant ways" while being overrated at the same time. Those are NOT mutually exclusive concepts.

Some agree with me, many disagree. Either way it's fine by me. I think good discussions are the lifeblood of a thriving board.

Why the hostility in your replies? I never intended for this thread to get so personal. Anybody that knows me knows that that is not my style.
 

Rams43

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Colin Krapperdick is THE definition of an overrated player. Not Austin. Analysts these days always bitch about his lack of WR ability and his tragic route running and so so hands. Tell me where his WR abilities are ever touted by people in the booth or table.

It's always been the ability with the ball in his hands already. And that isn't an overrated ability. He's one of the most dynamic when he has the ball.

Krapperdick meanwhile had people riding his balls from day one. Need I remind the constant Jaws love and literally every broadcaster when he played?

His hideous flaws were hidden on a stacked team and no one wanted to mention them. That's overrated.


Hell, for a long ass time, I'd say people were riding Bradfords ass as the most overrated Ram player.

I agree that both Bradford and Kaep were greatly overrated, Athos.
 

RamFan503

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I thought that I was taking the high road and extending the olive branch, RamFan503. Guess I missed again.

One very, very, very last time...

It is possible for me to see Austin as a player "that helps out in several significant ways" while being overrated at the same time. Those are NOT mutually exclusive concepts.

Some agree with me, many disagree. Either way it's fine by me. I think good discussions are the lifeblood of a thriving board.

Why the hostility in your replies? I never intended for this thread to get so personal. Anybody that knows me knows that that is not my style.

I would say one last time but who am I kidding. I can do this all day.

It's not hostility and it is neither high road, low road, or road less traveled. I just really dislike dismissive arguments like the actual straw man arguments you are employing. I also am not a fan of the whole "most overrated" discussion - especially when you title the thread as you have. But that may be just me and I can accept that. But do you expect me to get all warm and fuzzy over who you view as OUR most overrated player? That's just not me.

You keep sticking to this most overrated mantra and then as people disagree - as is completely healthy on a sports board - you act as if they just don't understand. We get it. Many of us simply don't agree that what you see equates to most overrated. There is no animosity until you throw the homer card as if we can't see your ultimate wisdom through our homervision.

Again - no hostility. Just don't expect me to agree or stand by as you dismiss others' arguments as simply being homers. Personally, I couldn't care less (I suppose I could care less if it was a Whiner board) who someone views as overrated as long as they don't expect me to agree when I see holes in their logic.